For well over a century the “Collie” name has been co-opted by show breeders who have created a monster whose face looks like a door stop with beady eyes set in triangular slits. These same people have co-opted the notion that Queen Victoria was deeply infatuated with their flavor of Collie. But she wasn’t.
The three dogs you see above are the collies the Queen was infatuated with, her favorite dogs, her constant companions from the death of Prince Albert in 1861 to the Queen’s own death in January of 1901. Not one of them looks either like a Victorian Collie nor the wedge-headed beasts we call Rough and Smooth Collies today. The above dogs are clearly Border Collies.
The large photo to the left is of Noble, the center Border Collie in the photo above. Even though he lived decades before the name “Border Collie” came into being, his photo in the Royal Collection is labeled “A Collie of the Cheviot Breed.”
This alone is sufficient to classify him a proto-Border Collie as the Cheviot hills were the epicenter of the Border Collie’s creation. It also indicates that even in the 1870s the Border Collie type was a cohesive and ample subgroup within Collies to merit its own name.
The comparison clearly shows that Noble looks most like a modern Border Collie (my Dublin), versus the least Borzoi-headed Victorian era collie I could find and the quintessential Lassie collie. While many of the sable Scotch collies of the era were already more angular, with less stop and high set ears (before the supposed Borzoi blood), some still had a more natural look. Dublin and Noble share an even greater similarity now that Dublin is full grown, but his puppy photo above was the first I found that matched the full on gaze of Noble for comparison.
Sharp, the Queen’s favorite collie before Noble, and Roy, her constant companion after, are much the same type as Noble and clearly nothing like either the Victorian collie, the Borzoi-headed collies, or the Rough and Smooth collies we have today. And they’re amazingly unchanged over the three decades from Albert’s death to the Queen’s own. By 1901, the show collie was already another beast entirely, and although the Queen is known to have had all sorts of collies, some of whom were shown, the special ones were Border Collies.
For a woman who owned hundreds of dogs of different types which lived in the various kennels of her estates, it says a lot about the excellent companions Border Collies make that Victoria would chose them consistently over the many other collies and other breeds she owned to be her most intimate pets.
Two dogs that featured strongly in the queen’s life were the collie dogs, Noble and Sharp, that always traveled with her to and from Balmoral, whom Victoria described with great affection in her Highland journals. Sharp, however, had a reputation for being bad tempered and was always spoiling for a fight with other dogs. He frightened most of the royal entourage, except the redoubtable John Brown. Noble was far more sweet natured and had the special role of guarding the queen’s gloves.
– The Personal Life of Queen Victoria by Sarah Tooley 1896, p. 108
Here’s the journal entry where she describes how “Sharp” was a good name for a dog that was both intelligent and pointy:
Misty early, then beautiful and clear and very hot. Got up with a bad headache. At five minutes to eleven rode off with Beatrice, good Sharp going with us and having occasional “collie-shangies”–A Scotch word for quarrels or “rows,” but taken from fights between “collies.”–with collies when we came near cottages.
– Queen Victoria’s Journal of a Life in the Highlands, September 6, 1869
The photos of Queen Victoria and Sharp that were taken at Balmoral in 1867 show a dog that could be mistaken for a Lab at first blush. Mostly for the traits that distinguish Border Collies from Victorian/show/Lassie collies: predominantly black and white, a clear stop, a rounded skull, large friendly eyes. The photo taken two years before, however shows that Sharp has a moderate smooth coat, keeping plenty of hair around the collar and face, and those ears and facial structure are very Border Collie.
The Queen’s pet dogs accompany her wherever she goes, and are not distinctively Balmoral pets. In the “Leaves” of her “Life” here, however, she makes special mention of two, Sharp and Noble, and their photographs are given in that book. A slight reminiscence of Sharp may not be out of place. We have countless reminiscences of bipeds of far less noble nature.
Sharp was a loyal dog, though discriminating in his loyalty. He gave allegiance to a limited number only, and one of those was John Brown. He guarded his room and his properties. One day, two of the maids at Windsor Castle, Deeside lassies, went to John Brown’s room for a “crack” with their compatriot concerning some matter of mutual interest, but did not find him in. They, therefore, availed themselves of his pens and paper to write a note to leave behind them. This done, they turned to go. But Sharp, who had been lying quietly by the bed, instantly sprang between them and the door, and intimated unmistakably that they would not be permitted to leave. In vain they coaxed.
Sharp was incorruptible; and they understood his nature sufficiently to know that an attempt to pass him without his assent would be dangerous. There was nothing for it but to sit down and wait till some one came for their relief.
They waited an hour, Sharp lying quiet but alert. At the end of that time a page came along, also looking for John Brown. To him they appealed for help. He suddenly seized the dog by the collar, called out to the girls to run, and then throwing Sharp from him with all his force, sprang through the door and closed it, Sharp meanwhile howling with rage. Had they not touched anything in the room, said John Brown, Sharp would have allowed them to go. But having meddled with the writing materials, argued the sagacious dog, what properties might they not be conveying away.
– The Queen at Balmoral by Frank Pope Humphrey – 1893, p. 182-184
Following the death of Albert, the Queen became a very sentimental and secluded woman. She documented her travels, her life with her pets, and even memorialized them in numerous ways. It is this shift in her lifestyle that created the documentation of her favorite dogs, the Border Collies.
Mementos of the past surrounded her in serried accumulations. In every room the tables were powdered thick with the photographs of relatives; their portraits, revealing them at all ages, covered the walls; their figures, in solid marble, rose up from pedestals, or gleamed from brackets in the form of gold and silver statuettes. The dead, in every shape–in miniatures, in porcelain, in enormous life-size oil paintings–were perpetually about her. John Brown stood upon her writing-table in solid gold. Her favorite horses and dogs, endowed with a new durability, crowded round her footsteps. Sharp, in silver gilt, dominated her dinner table.
– Queen Victoria by Lytton Strachey, 1921
Following the reign of Sharp as the Queen’s favorite, another Border Collie ascended to the throne, the handsome Noble:
My favorite collie Noble is always downstairs when we take our meals, and was so good, Brown making him lie on a chair or couch, and he never attempted to come down without permission, and even held a piece of cake in his mouth without eating it, till told he might. He is the most “biddable” dog I ever saw, and so affectionate and kind; if he thinks you are not pleased with him, he puts out his paws, and begs in such an affectionate way.
– Queen Victoria’s Journal of a Life in the Highlands – Sunday, September 14, 1873
The photos are convincing based on looks, but if there was one, just one, trait that would distinguish the Border Collie from all other breeds, let alone the other collies, it’d be “most biddable.” That the Queen puts the word in quotes suggests that she had been talking with the very shepherds who bred the Border Collies, as it is–even today–their favorite word.
The queen was heartbroken when [Noble] grew sick at the age of sixteen. She called in her own personal physician, Sir James Reid, to administer the medicine to the animal, and when the dog died the queen was so distraught that Reid had to sedate her. Noble too received a ceremonial burial at Balmoral, for the queen fervently believed that the higher animals had souls and when they died would go to a future life; they should therefore, in her view, be mourned just like humans.
– Queen Victoria by Helen Rappaport p. 36
Like Sharp, Noble too was given a funeral and a statue to memorialize him. And, like the photos and statue of Sharp, Noble is clearly unlike the Victorian Collie and a perfect cast of what is still today recognizable as a Border Collie.
In the park, west of the Castle, beside a path, stands a life-size bronze of “Noble.”
Noble was a “biddable,” affectionate dog, says his Royal Mistress, and he looks it. Like Matthew Arnold’s “Geist,” and many another less famous dog, he was:
“That liquid Melancholy eye
From whose pathetic soul-fed springs
Seemed surging the Virgilian cry,
The sense of tears in mortal things.”This finds admirable expression in the bronze. Upon the pedestal supporting the figure is the following:–
NOBLE,
For more than 15 years the favourite collie
and dear and faithful companion of
Queen Victoria,
Died at Balmoral, 18th Sept., 1887.“Noble by name, by nature noble too,
Faithful companion, sympathetic, true.”—
His remains are interred here.– The Queen at Balmoral by Frank Pope Humphrey – 1893, p. 184
The successor to Sharp and Noble was Roy, also a clear Border Collie, and also a constant companion and favored dog to Queen Victoria.
Her Majesty’s love for dogs is so well known that it would be superfluous to dwell upon such a topic. Wherever the Queen goes, she is accompanied by “Spot” (a fox-terrier), “Roy” (a black and tan collie), and a lovely little brown Spitz called “Marco.” Her favourite dogs are collies…
– The Idler Magazine, Volume III, April 1893
One of the Queen’s attendants writes about Her Majesty’s adventures later in life, adventuring about in the country pulled by a donkey with Roy in tow:
Villa Victoria, Grasse, Alpes Maritimes, April 1, 1891… We had had a delicious morning, with air like crystal; part of it I spent on the mountainside, painting after H.M.’s donkey chair. Off goes the donkey at a good firm pace, led by the groom, Randall. H.M.in a grey shall, with a mushroom hat, a large white sunshade, sits comfortably installed in a donkey chair; then come the two Princesses close behind, walking like troopers; the two Scottish servants not quite so active; beside them romps the collie ‘Roy.’ Lady Churchill and I close up the procession, and the little pug belonging to Princess Beatrice toddles last of all. The Queen never stops, but goes steadily on.
– Reminiscences by Candace Battersea, 1922
This brings us full circle back to the first of the Queen’s Border Collies that we know of in detail, Sharp:
The Queen now goes about the grounds in her garden chair–a basket chair, with thick rubber bands on the wheels for ease and smoothness of motion. Francie Clark leads the pony or donkey, and the dogs go with her in charge of the dogmen–“Roy” and “Marco” and the rest. The little beasties do not accompany her in her long drives, though “Sharp,” I believe, used occasionally to break away and follow till he caught up her carriage, to return sitting proudly by his royal mistress’s side.
– The Queen at Balmoral by Frank Pope Humphrey – 1893, p. 77-78
They don’t come more rich or more famous than Queen Victoria, the premiere member of the Border Collies of the Rich and Famous club. Her tastes became England’s tastes and she is perhaps the most significant cultural trendsetter of the era. Luckily for us Border Collie fans, the true identity of her favorite pets remained obscured by the imprecise “Collie” title and the corruptors in the show world took the loose eyed, dim witted, and pick headed Collie as their ideal and left the Border Collie alone.
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
Thank you for this well researched article. The old story I always hear is that Queen Victoria crossed her Collies with her Borzois to create what would become the Rough Collie. If all her collies looked like these, then that doesn’t seem possible. The truth of course is that the pointy nosed, fox-like collie existed long before the queen got her first Collie. Even in her time, Queen Vic’s Collies were recognized as being different from the usual Collie.
“A few years ago Queen Victoria had a number of pure black and tan Collies, which I saw at Balmoral. They were pretty, but I am of the opinion that they had been crossed with the black and tan Setter dog. This may not have been the case, but it seemed to me the only plausible explanation for the absence of that foxy look which is characteristic of all pure Collies.”
William Crozier, 1897, How the farm pays: the experiences of forty years of successful farming and gardening
.-= Andy Ward´s last blog ..Breeding and Selection of Collie Dogs – 1898 =-.
The top picture of nobel looks a lot like an English Shepherd to me. And all the pictures look like border collies too but I wouldn’t be surprised is English Shepherds have an claim equal to border collies of Victoria’s favorite dogs.
English Shepherds certainly do have a claim, as Noble predates anyone using the terms Border Collie or English Shepherd by several decades.
Black and Tan (without white) has certainly survived in the English Shepherd and not in the Border Collie. Nobel has white on him though.
English Shepherds have also preserved the Noble earset (I’ve seen some call these medallion ears) and others noticing how they are becoming more rare in the Border Collie.
Of note, the English Shepherd was developed primarily in America though, and many of them to this day are indistinguishable from some Border Collies, save watching them work.
They are certainly the first breed one would turn to in recreating a greater collie landrace.
After reading what you just wrote I would say the reason Victoria’s dogs are border collies is because border collies originate from England and English Shepherds were bred in the United States. But both breeds are very similar to each other as well as to Australian Shepherds.
As far as ear sets go: I find that one litter of puppies can produce a whole spectrum of ear sets.
All three of the breeds probably have a good claim to Nobel and Sharp even though Aussies are often Merle.
I’m sorry, but for all of your breed-bashing your Dublin does not look like a purebred Border Collie. He’s probably a very sweet dog, but I would not classify him as a BC. You may want to have a DNA test done if you want to confirm his heritage.
I know more about Dublin’s heritage than I do my own. I’ve traced him all the way back to the founding dogs on both sides. More directly, I’ve seen him, both of his parents, and several grand parents working sheep. They all work like quintessential Border Collies, and that more than anything is what defines the breed. His 10 Generation pedigree is here: http://www.astraean.com/dublin_10gen_ped.html
Both of Dublin’s parents share a grandmother named Two Dots. What do you think of that level of line breeding? And have you every encountered a border collie who exhibited any of the negative effects of line breeding? Specifically because of single ancestor being too predominant on both the paternal and maternal sides of the dog’s pedigree?
I’m not a fan of close breeding, and my own breeding decisions reflect that.
It’s actually a very difficult thing to continually bring in new blood to your “line” as doing so is structurally at odds with “shaping” and “improving” the breed.
Two Dots is a {3-3} on opposite sides, and there’s a Cap {-3,4} on his mother’s side. The numbers represent the generation (Parents being 1, Grandparents 2) and the – separates father, mother.
Frustratingly, Cap (who is both Father and Grandfather to Moni) was listed under two different registries on the pedigree and given the cut off it wasn’t obvious that it was the same dog until I did more research.
I’ve talked at length with Moni’s breeder, but I would never breed a {1-2} dog. I’ve read most of the reasons people do this, and I understand that it works for the reasons people use it, but it also works for all the damage you don’t want to do.
For all the finger pointing done by the Working community at the show community, Celeste’s lines are significantly less inbred than Dublin’s.
It might be enough to only find and buy low COI dogs, but on a breed wide basis, existing lines that are inbred need preservation and dilution as well.
What specifically about the dog makes him not look like a border collie to you? Is it the large ears? Have you never seen tri markings. Is it the lack of a prominent blaze?
To me Dublin looks decidedly like a border collie even if his ears are larger than average but I find that ear sizes very tremendously even within a single litter. And border collies are a very diverse breed. Perhaps you could post links to pictures of your border collies so we can better see how you think of a standard border collie.
I have some photos of a first generation cross between a modern Borzoi and a Border Collie and also some observations on sighthound x herding dog crosses – which are termed “lurchers” – which I would be happy to share with you in relation to this discussion on the origin of the show type Collie. The interesting thing is that the Borzoi head was brought into the modern collie and then bred to a more extreme version, but the muscular leggy and hip dysplasia resistant sighthound body form was completely supressed. There is also a controversy in Borzois as to wether or not English Collies were incorporated into the Borzoi breed in England. The references in old Borzoi books to crossing Salukis or Tazis to “Russian collies” have to be references to crossing with Russian large herd guardian dogs such as the Ovcharka or Turkish herd guardians such as the Akbash. There were no drover’s type dogs in Russia.
Crossing Salukis to large herd guardians would give the greater size seen even in Borzois of the 19th century.
I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about collie/borzoi crosses. In the research I have done, and I have done quite a bit, I can find no real evidence of this ever taking place on a large scale. I’m sure it may have been done by a few breeders, but I doubt it ever happened on such a large scale that it effected the entire breed.
On the other hand, I would think that if collies were bred into borzoi that you would have evidence in that some borzoi would have ivermectin sensitivity like that found in long-haired whippets.
.-= Andy Ward´s last blog ..Old Fashioned Scotch Collie Breed Standard Working Draft =-.
I’ve found no evidence.
Terrierman repeats the rumor as fact in his poorly researched post here:
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2007/10/akc-by-faith-alone.html
He suggests that it’s the Borzoi that introduced Ivermectin sensitivity into the Collie.
But this falls apart if you read the actual study he links to:
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/32/11725.full
Click on Full Text (PDF)
Specifically:
Not only does Burns get the direction of the transfer wrong, the authors of the study point us to “personal communication with I. Combe” as the only evidence if the “well known crosses.”
You can read more about Iris Combe here:
http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/IrisCombe/IrisCombe.html
I contend that this is simply the retelling of rumor as fact.
When investigating the Queen Victoria rumor myself, I contacted the authors of “The Mythology of Dogs,” Gerald and Loretta Hausman, asking what evidence they had when they decided that the QV rumor was true. Their source was the breed clubs! Specifically a piece of paper from 1977 that said:
The authors said:
Well, you and I both know that those dates are entirely inaccurate, making the entire thing suspect.
Additionally, we know that the Borzoi gifts didn’t come until the Queen was already quite aged. We also know that she was by this time a recluse. Likewise we know that her kennels were being run by a manager, and that most if not all of the interest in the kennels was Edward’s. We even have paintings featuring Edward and both the Borzois and the show Collies, looking rather distinct still.
It only makes sense that the Borzoi baloney was wrapped up in the bogus attributes to QV and propagated by the show people.
This fits with the observation of narrow headed collies years, if not decades, before the Borzoi gift even happened.
I makes the most sense to me that some breeders simply accentuated this feature within the dogs they already had, no need to mix in anything else to accomplish it.
.-= Christopher´s last blog ..Gone But Still Smiling =-.
How could that be?
Terrierman never gets anything wrong, and my source is Terrierman’s Daily Dose.
.-= retrieverman´s last blog ..Tonight’s chat room =-.
ZOMBIE!
Great article Andy…Getting back to basics in our breeding program…I have a tri male here named Tommy with a better under jaw that cuts the same profile as your article photo. “—working qualities, type, disposition, and stamina or constitution. From an economic point of view, the working qualities are the most important, but there is no good reason why all these four qualities cannot be combined by proper and intelligent breeding. By continuance on these lines we can have a class of collies in this country in every respect worthy of the name.”
http://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/historic-collie-articles/golden-age-1861-1900/breeding-and-selection-of-collie-dogs-1898/
I am happy to report found the solution to regain those medallion ears of Noble…I hate those pricked ears of incorrect ear leather for a herding breed. Those medallion ears protected the dog from bugs and debris as they ran in high grasses. However, they will never be accepted by Show Collie Standards. A correct ‘brain cage’ or back skull makes all the difference.
Are there so few of us that can not face the reality how selective breeding for traits of fad and fashion divided the collie? Why are some Collie folks here being so Smug? Christopher’s research article is well documented in my opinion and study of collie history to replace time line obvious faults in previous history of breed writings. Common sense tells us Queen Victoria apparently had not evolve into the separate breeds and Standards of Fanciers creations of today.
For those who are aware and more willing to conceive of results of generations of selective breeding lets add this knowledge:
Pal the Collie in “Lassie Come Home” movie of 1943 pedigree traces directly back to the Royal Kennels. Avoiding stealing the thunder of researchers on his heritage know this documented findings should be announced and revealed shortly.
Now could we not safely assume that if Queen Victoria were alive it would not be past or today’s show rough collie or Border Collie?
The Borzoi crosses that might likely have been done in the Royal Kennel early in American Show Dogs revealed in several collie bloodlines in 50’s and 60’s had Filled in stops…Roman Noses, Amber or yellow eyes, and roach top lines which could have been the results of some Borzoi cross breeding or even certainly some sight hound? Let us likewise consider that not only as Andy Ward provides…early American Imports contained all of these variations.
You need to realize the differences in UK Show Rough Collies and American Show Rough Collies even in modern times. Strangely,since Smooth Collies are not allowed in UK to be bred to Rough…The differences in UK and US smooth collies is hardy be detected? The hairy heads of the UK roughs, smaller standard size. Few UK Champions with preferred expression, size and skull type would be accepted by American Fancier. Likewise, the reverse is true in the UK. So Standard Show Quality in Rough Collies worldwide even today is different. Muzzle differences specifically from stop skull structure to eyes and above creates a totally different expression. Some breeders in the United States of Collies did it right, because UK collies needed our normal eyed non carriers. Testing revealed they had no true normal eyes only affected CEA.
http://www.ccvinc.com.au/meetthecollie.htm
http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/rough-collie/breeders
All Collies were Collies until Border Collies used to distinguish first outrage of difference between a true working herding collie and a show collie from my studies and research..
http://www.border-wars.com/2013/10/sheepdog-trials-began-with-beauty-pageants.html
Interesting article. I have a mutt who shares some characteristics with Noble, and she has been claimed to be either part BC or part ES by owners of both breeds. Going out on a limb here, but would you consider guessing at her breed via photos and brief temperament description? I presently refer to her as a “herding something,” but would really like to know more.
Sure Liz, I’ll take a swing at an ID. BC vs ES identification is really down to unique BC behaviors and not really looks, as there is so much overlap and both breeds are rather diverse. Specifically, the BC “eye” and stalking behavior is unique to BCs. This list is pretty decent to help your ID: http://www.nesr.info/whatbreed/
What a great chart, thanks. From the little ‘herding’ she’s done, mostly of other dogs and the semi-domesticated geese/ducks nearby, she is a loose-eyed worker. She does not stalk. She makes very wide approaches to multiple animals, but will run right up alongside a single animal to try to control the direction of movement. Aside from herding behaviors, she swims whenever she can, is a successful hunter of small rodent-type critters, and is just all-around full of energy. She’s intense both indoors and out, though mellowing indoors with age.
Here are a variety of shots of the 3yo., supposed Keeshond Mix:
Nala’s photos
Liz given more consideration will offer likely what some may consider to be an off the wall guess. However, due to its coat color expression of the “wolf sable” .:a^w”
A recent study found that the allele is
present in more than 18 breeds of dogs
including: Eurasier, Border Collie,
German Shepherd Dog, Dachshund,
Golden Retriever, Vizsla, German
Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer, Brittany Spaniel, Akita, Shar Pei, Keeshond, Alaskan
Malamute, Norwegian Elkhound, Siberian Husky, Swedish Vallhund, Standard Schnauzer, and Miniature
Schnauzer.
Some of those breeds: Golden Retriever, Vizsla, German Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired
Pointer, Brittany Spaniel also have the (Kb) allele at the K locus which masks the presence of (aw). So
those breeds can carry the (aw) allele, but don’t express it. The remaining breeds, however, can express
http://www.tinybearpoms.com/Wolf%20Sable.pdf
Sure Liz I would be willing to make educated guess -Lets see a picture.
Liz Chris is likely closer. I agree this dog looks nothing like a Border Collie. I have seen such traits in mix breed individuals. If you want to take it a step farther …I have seen a test at Pet Smart you can purchase for around $38.00. It states it can you what percentage of each breed is your dog. I do not know it’s accuracy.
Go Borzoi !
Beat Collie !
You might be interested in the Gainsborough portrait of one Colonel John Bullock which includes a dog that looks pretty well identical to the present day Border Collie.
“For well over a century the “Collie” name has been co-opted by show breeders who have created a monster whose face looks like a door stop with beady eyes set in triangular slits.”
Oh, no love for the Collie. :c
And the “beady eyes set in triangular slits” actually only came about in the past couple of decades. The collies from Sunnybank had very large, rounded eyes. 😮 Why the bashing, though?
“Wedge Headed Beasts”….. you talk about the Rough Collie as this?….I have BC’s, but have also had a Rough Collie….Loved both…my Roughie was both Beautiful and Intelligent! (which, Christopher..is probably more than anyone could say about you!)…MUPPET
I usually get “devilishly handsome” and “unquestionably brilliant” so merely beautiful and intelligent would be a demotion.
Well written article, however, I would have enjoyed it more without the unnessisary rude & opinionated “breed bashing” against Rough & Smooth Collies. I have met many of them & always had them, NOT ONE was dim-witted. Just because some may not herd anymore does not mean they are stupid in anyway. It is a sign of changing times. Most people don’t have livestock to herd, but enjoy the company of a calm, loyal, easy to train companion – with an “off switch”. I personally love all the different collie types & I don’t pass obnoxious judgements on the breeds.
It’s nice that you don’t pass obnoxious judgment on breeds, but you should realize that the sport of conformation–which is directly responsible for altering the rough collie so drastically–is about passing obnoxious judgment on breeds. So apparently you like it when they create monstrous physical exaggeration, but it’s mean to suggest that they leave well enough alone and practice healthy moderation.
You’re an asshole Border Wars. You’re a stuck up, narrow minded, optionionated jerk always finding a way to be a snub-nosed smart ass who’s too full of yourself to understand what this “Dan” person was saying. And apparently, you don’t know shit about Collie history. The rough and smooth collie ALWAYS HAD a long wedged shaped face, large fluffy coat and small eyes.
And for the record: There are many show line rough and smooth collies are a fucking Einsteins and athletic with strong herding drive. Show line and working lines looks vary little because this is how Rough & Smooth Collies always looked, fool. There’s nothing I hate more than a damned breed bashing shithead.
It is a rather simple matter to prove you wrong. Here are two different historical Collie lithographs.
This one from 1840 as published in Sir William Jardine’s The Naturalist’s Library, lithograph by William Lazars.
This dog clearly has large forward-gazing round eyes placed forward on the head with pronounced stop, ample cranial dome, moderate muzzle and decidedly reasonable density and length of coat.
This lithograph features both the Smooth and Rough coated Collie from 1881 in Cassell’s Illustrated Book of the Dog by Vero Shaw.
These two dogs both have large, forward-facing eyes that are not oblique or wide-set, they are not small and almond, buried in overly thick skin. Nor are they separated by a broad ski-jump of a muzzle and set low and oblique as to prevent accurate forward vision. They have ample stop, clearly more than the “very slight but perceptible stop or break” called for in the show standard and exaggerated greatly by fashion in the modern collie, and they have a good sized cranium vault, again unlike the modern collie who has minimal forehead as that too has been subsumed into the “well-blunted lean wedge” and smushed flat to be in a parallel plane with the muzzle.
So no, I reject wholeheartedly and with evidence your claim that the collie “ALWAYS HAD a long wedge shaped face, large fluffy coat and small eyes.”
As for your other claims, they are simply laughable. No one uses these dogs for actual work. The closest you can find is some fancy breeder who lets their collie chase sheep around on someone else’s hobby farm and takes photos. This is not real work. No one with an actual bottom line stock business would touch these dogs and they haven’t for over a century. As for their athleticism, they are spectacular failures at dog sports as they can not see well enough owing to their oblique set eyes, to perform well or safely in any of them.
Christopher you can correct me but it is my understanding that Border Collies name was coined to differ themselves from the Rough Collie mutts that were in the show ring in England?
I’m not totally disagreeing with you, but I will argue that much of the reason that you don’t see Collies doing dog sports is that nobody CHOOSES Collies to do dog sports. I know Collies that can and do regularly beat Border Collie competition in Agility, and hold their own in Flyball. It’s true that you don’t see them in international competition, but there just aren’t that many of them.
And the MAIN reason nobody chooses collies to do dog sports is the same reason so many other breeds are not chosen to do dog sports. Everyone thinks they need a Border Collie to succeed. And then those who REALLY succeed continue to choose Border Collies (to up their chance of success). Few people go from highly biddable breeds to breeds that are considered less biddable, less flexible, etc., and people who do don’t necessarily have the “world beater” temperament.
You got to be venting because just had a fight you lost?. I am curious how long have you been in collies? Would love to be able to defend the quality of the Collie today, but.sadly not possible. I could show the beautiful normal eyed non carrier of our breeding.
The Standard States, “Medium Almond eyes” There is nothing smart or noble about a little pig eye. Many have to turn their heads to have even 180 degree vision with the eye much too deep set in the skull.
Know times changes but really …someone needs to teach conformation and movement to the Judges that make these champions. You are writing in platitudes without collie history knowledge or experience. of f Standard Eye shape. You might just like to check out ” From Desk of a Dinosaur”
Now you want to read someone who has had 60 years in collies as a writer, breeder, handler, and Judge. Our leader here on this Blog will be backed 100 per cent with these writings.
By the way, my late dog was a rescued Rough Collie cross who lived almost 18 years. He was friggin brilliant with human-like intelligence, no, even smarter than a college kid. It’s like he could read my mind, I could speak to him in full sentences & was able to understand over 100 words. I barely trained him, he trained himself. He could tree critters, herd, hunt you name it. He was my partner & my best friend. Because of him, I feel in love with the collie. After he passed on I got a rough collie & I’m shocked at how damned smart this dog is! He trained himself too. He’s only a year old & great at herding, watchdog, gentle, biddable & incredibly fast learner. I’m spoiled, collies are an awesome breed (and I’m referring to all collie breeds, I think they’re all wonderful dogs).
Based on your research, you have a decent case for Noble being a Border Collie precursor but the loose style of herding speaks against his being a Border but his temperament sounds very collie like. Clearly a tri color and not the modern typical black and white Border but I don’t know that that would be determinative in the early years.
Sharp hardly looks like a collie at all being much more of a lab type dog with his temperament being much more lab-like than collie. Makes me wonder if he was a cross with a hunting dog. Nothing about him sounds or looks like a Border at all. Your Dublin looks very much like a Border to me and his herding style with the strong eye and low crouch sealing the deal. That distinctive herding style seems like the best way to determine if a dog is a Border Collie as opposed to other collie dogs.
By the way, I’m not a fan of the modern scotch collie with its tiny eyes and straight nose either. Earlier dogs were beautiful with their larger eyes and slight stops along with less of a ridiculous coat than the modern roughs have and noted intelligence.
Where do you find evidence that Noble had a “loose style of herding”?
Honestly Chris there have been so many “Fractured Fairy Tales” and lack of knowledge of Herding Dogs with false conclusions believe are the Reality of this statement. Example:
In 1860, Birmingham National Dog Show Society held classes for different varieties of Herding Dogs. “{Scotch-Sheep-dog it is recorded. Five collies were benched at this show. One that the Rough Collies recorded in history was a dog named Old Cockie born 1868. Show Collies trace back to Old Cockie by grandson Charlemagne. All my pedigree studies trace back to other collies of the period such as Bess, Old Med, Old Hero, Carlyle, Trefoil, Twig, Tartan, Tricolour,
Tramp, Marcus, Scott, Duncan, Hunt’s Lassie, and Brackenbury’s Scott. Trefoil born in 1873, collie pedigrees that I have researched trace down to the present day Rough Collie.
http://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/historic-collie-articles/early-history-distant-past-1860/charles-h-wheeler-on-the-history-of-the-collie/
In the United States the Rough Collie breed was dominated by rich patrons that imported the best from England that eventually became progenitors of early prestigious kennels. In 1880’s, J.P Morgan important sable Sefton Hero. Hero became Winner Dog at the First Collie Club of America show, held in New York 1894. The Collie Club of America, Inc organized in 1886 and second parent club to join American Kennel Club.
The First Lassie in “Lassie Come Home”
Pal traces back to Old Cockey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal_(dog)
I continue to go back in previous research regarding this comment on Noble’s herding style, I do feel have read that somewhere? http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/QueenVictoria/QueenVictoria.html. My studies and opinion of the selective breeding that created trait appearance differences and herding styles was human intervention. I had a tri female collie years ago who displayed two types of herding styles. What Scottish herding folks cheered for joy when she displayed “Presence” …Staring down a large species Ram as he challenged her authority as she drew close to the ground in what is termed “Border Collie Crawl” .
It was the turn of the century the American Rough Collie between 1900 to 1920 as a result of imports made rapid changes in this country. These imports built the foundations of present breed foundations.in the United States. Continued development and evolution of today’s representation came from now famous American Kennels of 1920’s and 30’s in my studies. A Decade or so ago…one collie writer Bobby Roos wrote a book titled “Evolution of the Collie”
Now this visit to Balmoral Castle is likewise mentioned in a more recent article but primary speaks of the Corgi’s but we are speaking of Elizabeth not Victoria and Corgi not Border Collies or Rough are we not? The first link is most definitely Victoria.
http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2011/01/queen-victorias-favorite-sharp-border.html
http://www.chelsea-collies.com/information76.html#anchor185805
http://www.doyle.com.au/Awen/WinterSpring2013/pt1c.html
http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/341000/Dog-save-the-Queen
It seems in the 18th century homeland was in the highlands of Scotland in the hills and mountains where sheepdogs had been used likely for centuries. It is likely Romans brought sheepdogs when they invaded Britain. They likely inbred with local canines. There are other stories of herding dogs coming from varies countries and likely were breed into local dogs if displaying outstanding useful herding styles. Two styles were eventually developed one rough coated collie, that worked directly with stock and smooth used as a drover to drive livestock to marker.These early anchestors were bred for strength, endurance, intelligence, devotion and loyalty.
This earlier style in smooth collies was transcended in modern times…smooth collies can and do herd wel, who can utilize more Drover technique while others do not. . It is my understanding active with graceful outline, alert eyes and keen hearing. The absence of white markings considered a prized trait and indicated purity of the bloodlines. Comparative of today …they were a smaller dog with heads on course side, heavier ears, and with a well fitted coat…not so much hair. It was considered the working man’s dog and middle class worker. It seems interest and pedigrees were created through Victorian upper class elitist attitude because the collie’s exceptional ability to following visual and complex commands. A Professional working class dog. The royal boost in the 1800’s when Queen Victoria visiting Balmoral Castle in Scotland put the sheepdogs in her Royal Kennel. There was an article in Lloyd’s Weekly I have read were writer stated: “Sharp, who has all his meals with his mistress, being seldom away from her” “It also states this dog was notorious for biting servants and visitors. Read the current Royal House comments on the Corgi.
We all remember the Collies that were more like Dan’s collie. Now look through the eyes and heart of a man who has sixty years in the Collie Breed, as a breeder, handler, writer, and Collie Judge. Can not you read that he nearly is begging for a wake up call to Show Breeders?
. Different tone but equally concerned at the state of current conditions of the Collie.
http://deskofadinosaur.blogspot.com/
How can a blind Collie catch a flyball? Might be one reason people prefer BC.
I do not know Jill, I have normal eyed non carriers. Prior I was saved by a rough collie with PRA from poisonous snake. Caught mid inches from me? Sense of smell and hearing? However, she did not play ball. I have seen years ago a blind rough collie herd. How I do not know.
Jill says “How can a blind Collie catch a flyball? Might be one reason people prefer BC.”
Ahhh, but the Border Collie also has CEA, as well as quite a few other breeds and mixed breeds of dogs. Hey, look at us — how many of you weaqr glasses? Thjat aside, there are grades of CEA and, for instance, choriorental change is a very mild form of CEA typically not affecting vision. Yes, breeders continue to breed for normal eyes, and any reputable breeder has expensive eye checks performed by ophthalmologists (not just a veterinarian), and others go so far as having the newer testing done to help discern whether the dog is truly a normal vs. a go-normal, or whether the dog is normal but a carrier vs. a normal non-carrier. There’s a lot more involved in the breeding of good quality dogs than may seem on the surface.
Cindy I do agree like us even an affected eye in a Border Collie and other breeds of CEA or PRA it is amazing how individuals will compensate. Conformation is easier when the limited sight makes the training far easier and exhibiting.
However,
The Rough and Smooth Collie owe much of “today’s” Border Collie gentry for their participation in discovery of the CEA marker. However, quite clearly few previously from the data in comparison affected existed when the marker was found. http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_cea_ch.html
Unlike the Smooth and Rough Collie that is one of the Oldest Breed Clubs in AKC. The Border Collie one must realize with its long history is new to Closed Registry of the AKC and intense selective breeding of the Show Dog Breeder gentry. What will happen or is happening to the great history of good breeders in the Border Collie with little eye abnormalities? I hope Conformation BC show breeders do not follow in the footsteps of the Rough Collies.
Mary said “Based on your research, you have a decent case for Noble being a Border Collie precursor but the loose style of herding speaks against his being a Border but his temperament sounds very collie like. Clearly a tri color and not the modern typical black and white Border but I don’t know that that would be determinative in the early years.”
Mary is spot on! In my extensive research on the collie family I often find some individuals in the 1800s harder to tell apart at times. However, a description of their working style and a photo, lithograph, or woodcut depicting their working style or otherwise stance and certain other characteristics help me differentiate between an early BC and an early Collie (aka Scotch Collie, Scotch Sheepdog, Smooth Sheepdog, Shepherd Dogge, Rough Collie, Smooth Collie). Coloration helps. There was such a wide range in physical type, but I can usually make an educated determination. Speaking of ranges in physical type, it runs the gamut and I find it interesting that even as far back as 1828 there is an image of what was called a Scotch Sheep Dog of a fox Collie type (perhaps hence the term “Fox Collie” at times) that looks exactly like a current Rough Collie that I know of. Iris Combe’s Herding Dogs and Their Development is a very reliable resource of historic information. In it there is a photo of 2 “Irish Collies.” By appearance, I would determine that one of these (the sable) is of the Scocth Collie (Rough Collie type) with upstanding style, while the tri-color dog is of the early Border Collie type with the intense stalking behavior of a predator that was subsequently bred for particularly for by the very late 1800s onward. Interesting…
I don’t know where Mary is finding the information that Noble had a loose style of herding. I don’t believe anything I’ve found supports that assertion.
Chris I have seen it written presently can not remember where. Nobel certainly represents today more of the development and selective breeding of the Border Collie in phenotype in my opinion.if you are looking for support. Loose herding style is an ambiguous description.from observations of Border Collies and ability
People seem to like to categorize, and the herding breeds have ended up at various times in various categories. such as sheepdogs vis-a-vis cattledogs, or “headers” vis-a-vis “heelers, ” among others. “Droving” dogs is another category used to describe a smooth collie style sometimes being contrasted with “herding” dogs. Semantics enters in, with the same word having slightly different meanings to different people. Although categories usually have some basis in reality, they also should be approached with caution. Herding just isn’t that simple, as appealing as compartmentalizing might be to someone looking for simple answers. .
It would also be a mistake to try to treat all herding dogs the same, lumping them all into a group, expecting them all to do the same job in the same way. My studies revealed it can help in the consideration of various training approaches to take.Pre-determined category based on a supposed “breed style” not only is erroneous, but can all too easily result in a limiting of a dog’s potential. There are similarities as well as differences, There are similarities as well as differences both with respect to the breeds as a whole and with respect to individuals within the breeds. While one may be aware of general tendencies, one still should approach each dog as an individua is my understanding. .
I believe Sharp, Noble and Roy were Scotch Collies, the current day UKC English Shepherd breed.
http://www.englishshepherd.org/breed-history.html
My 13 year-old English Shepherd looks exactly like Sharp and Noble.
I think the article would be received better by dog scholars and dog loving readers if the derogatory comments about rough and smooth collies were dropped. Truthful history is one thing. Breed-bashing is another thing entirely.