Shifting gears from an unrepentant pro-inbreeding propagandist back to fact-checking an otherwise excellent post, I’d like to take my editor’s pen to Christie Keith’s post at Pet Connection called It’s the DNA, stupid: Purebred dogs, closed studbooks, and genetic minefields.
The whole thing is worth a read, but the following passage is pure gold. Christie really hits on the unsung aspect of this entire debate:
The problem is something you can’t see, the genetic code of dogs who were never bred, who left no offspring: the genes we left behind.
Conformation traits that help dogs win in the show ring and give tabloid reporters and bloggers fodder for the outrage du jour are the product of selection on the part of breeders. Those observable problems that everyone is so eager to ridicule could conceivably be fixed by education and increased awareness. Lost genetic diversity causes far less fixable problems, like reduced litter sizes, reproductive failure, genetic disease, shorter life expectancies, lowered disease resistance, and greater rates of immune-mediated disease.
To put it another way, if your dogs can’t reproduce because their heads are too big and their pelvises are too narrow, that can be fixed if you pluck your own head out of your own hindquarters, but fixing a problem of inbreeding depression in an entire species is a task that daunts the most ardent conservationists and scientists.
This is the reason I’m doing these posts: not to defame the fancy, but to educate. This isn’t something you were likely to have been taught in high school, certainly not in the depth required to make wise breeding decisions as a breeder or buying decisions as a dog owner.
The unbred dog will never win a ribbon or chase down a rabbit. There will be no romantic novels written about the Border Collie who wasn’t inbred on Wiston Cap. No photo-shoots for the dog whose face is symmetric but whose alleles are not.
Christie goes on to make another excellent point, that we are sacrificing the health and even future existence of our dogs to protect a word: “Breed.” We aren’t even protecting a time honored definition of this word; the breeders who fashioned our many breeds out of the handful of historical landraces had no problems tampering with the recipe.
But enough with the plaudits, time for the criticism:
The “investigator” for “Pedigree Dogs Exposed” said in dire tones, “Being very inbred in and of itself has a catastrophic effect on the immune system,” but that’s not true. There’s no magical threshold of inbreeding that in and of itself causes health problems or impaired vigor in an individual dog. Unless the dog has inherited genes for a detrimental trait, there won’t be any negative effects.
This isn’t quite right. We don’t need to put an exact number on an observation for an effect to be real. As I have shown before, inbreeding and selection leads to a loss of information. At the extreme, the same number of alleles tell a story that is half as long. It is not true that deleterious genes need to be inherited.
Not every genetic effect has a name, let alone a disease associated with it. We might call the Merle gene a disease, and we might call immune response depression a disease or a cluster of diseases, even if we don’t have a famous Doctor to name them after yet.
Let me run you through a hypothetical. Let’s pretend that there is a single gene that controls blood flow to the uterus, and there are several different alleles for this gene: 8 units, 10 units, and 12 units of blood. The optimal level which will produce the most puppies, is 10 units.
A dog might get two copies of the 10 unit allele and produce on average 10 units of blood feeding the uterus. But the dog might be heterozygous with 12 and 8. On average, this dog will also produce 10 units of blood, the optimal amount. But a homozygous dog with 8 and 8 or 12 and 12 units will produce too little or too much blood flow, and consequently will give birth to fewer puppies.
Can we call this a disease? You might say that a puppy that is not born is about the same as a puppy that could have been born but died. But this effect isn’t completely fatal, we’re still producing puppies even in the wost case scenario.
That’s a grey area, right? What if the immune system works the same way? What if we can’t put our finger on a fully fledged disease path but instead we have less efficiency in general?
We SEE this empirically with inbreeding. But we are as of yet not fully aware of the exact mechanisms and possible disease paths. So, just because we don’t have a named disease, we can not claim that there is no such effect. We can’t even say that we need to inherit specific genes either, the effects could be partially epigenetic. Until we know, we are foolish to close the door to what is possible.
I know “what if” questions are frustrating, but remember, we don’t even know all the rules we’re dealing with in biology, so we need to be careful to not fully dismiss what we DO observe experimentally just because it doesn’t yet fit into a nice box in a text book.
There are also breeds that have within them two or more pools of dogs that rarely mingle their genes, such as breeds with a strong field/show split like the Labrador Retriever, or breeds with a strong show/pet split like the Golden Retriever, or breeds with a performance/show split like the Greyhound.
If these populations of dogs within the same breed have genes that the others lack, then it’s possible to dip into those genetic pools and increase genetic diversity in your lines. You might not win in the show ring with those dogs, but you can do a lot to overcome inbreeding depression.
Unfortunately, mixing distinct gene pools within the same breed brings with it another set of problems, too. One, if you outcross among unrelated lines of the same breed, you risk eliminating the very pool of genetic diversity you were trying to preserve. Where will the dogs not descended from Ch. Popular Sire come from, if all his offspring got bred to those “unrelated” dogs in previous generations?
That last part is suspect. While inbreeding fanatics smash the same genes into each other at an alarming rate, outcrossing is not an all or nothing proposition [nor need inbreeding be one either]. You don’t have to merge entire pools to achieve diversity. For instance, in the Dalmatian Backcross project that Christie pointed to earlier in the essay, they bred to a pointer once, and once only and then worked the offspring back into the Dalmatian gene pool over 5 generations. This produced dogs that were more than 99.9% Dalmatian. We didn’t need to create a “Dalmointer” or whatever you’d call the F1 cross out of each Dalmatian line to see benefits. Part of the problem is failing to differentiate between microgenetic and macrogenetic effects. Whereas in a closed gene pool, you very well might reach a point that despite “outcrossing” you are still driving up COI (unavoidable inbreeding w/o leaving that gene pool), you will never reach a point where you are unintentionally out crossing despite trying to inbreed.
For example, the Golden Retriever is in no possible way put at threat because of the existence of the GoldenDoodle. The Doodle is not contagious, and just because some Goldens were bred to Poodles, there’s nothing keeping the rest of the Golden pool from not breeding with a Poodle. And, should the need arise to find an outcross for a Golden line, one might very well turn to a GoldenDoodle, but the results need not become widely bred back into Goldens right away. A single smart outcross (or several) and then wise normal breedings back to Goldens (not even a need for intense inbreeding) could create several sires and dams with the desired new blood in the right places without sacrificing anything that would be quintessentially Golden Retriever.
It’s also worth noting that those quintessential aspects of our breeds are nearly universal, not only according to the process of genetic drift, but also the centuries of specific and ruthless selection. While this process is the same one that has brought us problems, it most certainly can prove handy in our attempts to fix those problems. It doesn’t take long at all after an outcross, even an extreme one, before the offspring begin to look and act like the root stock with few or no discernible variances.
We can have our cake and eat it too, because who wants to own cake and not eat it? We’ve seen numerous examples of inbreeding into ruin and extinction, but really, can you think of a single example where someone out crossed into oblivion? Did some Chihuahua breeder suddenly have a wolf pop out of her lines? Have you ever seen an interracial marriage result in a Neanderthal or a Great Ape? Recessives don’t disappear in outbreeding like information is lost in inbreeding and selection; they are at worst paired heterozygous and thus only “hidden” and not lost.
There are slippery slopes with inbreeding and selection because we are removing information and that information is lost. There are no such slippery slopes with out breeding and inclusion. It is a constructive process, not a destructive one. It is building with clay, not chipping away at marble. Mistakes are never fatal, they can always be repaired.
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http://people.ysu.edu/~helorimer/inbrimmune.html
Thanks for that, I’d like to provide some documented links to inbreeding research, but that will have to wait for an educational, instead of a rebuttal, post. These would take me a week to write instead of a day a piece if I documented them well.
I plan to do a summary post which links to all of the ideas and observations I’ve brought up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950295/
A simple google search can refudiate these claims.
retrieverman recently posted..Popular sire problems in a livebearer
The cattle people know this: http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2010/April/CT2207.php
retrieverman recently posted..Popular sire problems in a livebearer
The kicker in that article, and the reason why the “oh, crossing breeds will just bring in more diseases” argument does NOT FLY:
“And if a cow is healthier, with a stronger immune system due to hybrid vigor, she develops better immunity when vaccinated, imparts better colostrum to her calf, which in turn keeps him healthier through the risky days of early calfhood. Genetics plays a big role in an animal’s immunity and immune response; the crossbred animal is hardier than a straightbred animal partly just because genes control the process of recognizing disease agents and inbreeding doubles up more of the undesirable immune-response genes.”
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Meaning, that genes caused by easily tested for simple recessives or dominants will be the least of your worries if the immune system goes down.
Jess recently posted..Justice League of America 54 cover and info!
I know it’s dangerous to compare inbred disease with viral disease, but I think this is easy to understand.
In respect to “bringing in new disease” out crossing can be seen like a vaccination. Sure, there’s a minute chance that you will bring in a new disease, but compare the small increased chance of new disease versus the greatly decreased chance of expression of old disease.
We take calculated risks all the time. A vaccine is a calculated risk that has shown thousands of times the benefit compared to the detriment.
So is taking a drug to cure a disease. There are risks, but when you are looking at death or dysfunction, many people will take that risk.
The truth is that with genetic drift, unless these newly introduced disease alleles are selected FOR, they will likely never take hold in the breed and reach saturation. They are much more likely to be driven out again, just through natural selection.
Goldendoodles when bred back to goldens invariably produce dogs that look like goldens:
http://www.articlesbase.com/pets-articles/what-is-a-smooth-coat-goldendoodle-591746.html
http://searchwarp.com/UserImages/1366/doodle_maradoodles9.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2599/4186031581_1e72f37c77_z.jpg?zz=1
retrieverman recently posted..Popular sire problems in a livebearer
Interesting, and those are F2 and F3s, can you imagine how much conformation you’d get back to in an F5?
Especially conformation that would matter?
In livestock, animals that are 7/8 are usually considered registerable as ‘pure’, although some registries will accept 3/4 animals. The thing with livestock is that problems due to inbreeding are pretty much accepted as existing, so if it become necessary to outcross (as in the case of dogs, with their very, very limited number of immune system genes per breed), there is none of this fussing and fuming about purity, because it is already accepted that eventually, cross-bred animals will become ‘pure’ again.
I have done two backcrossed litters; it is fairly easy, through selection, to get what you want. With modern dna testing, it will be even easier to bring in something like a DLA gene that is protective against certain diseases. What you do have to let go of, is nitpicky things, like ear set, or tail stiffness. Those can be perfected later, if desired.
One of the reasons closed registry proponents are almost exclusively show breeders, is that the show/registry becomes the reason for the existence of the dog. Breeding dogs that are not eligible for registration or showing is seen as counterproductive. This is a very common theme in discussions I have had.
Jess recently posted..Justice League of America 54 cover and info!
I wish I’d seen this before I made my comment last night about applying livestock breeding ideas to dog breeding…. 🙂
In response to your comment regarding having to let go of things like ear set and tail stiffness…I have had a very good response from the pet-buying public to my collies. No one cares one whit that my dogs don’t fit the current show ring trends. I guess that only matters to the people who are showing–LOL. But given that the vast majority of dogs end up in pet homes–why not breed for characteristics that make a dog a good pet? Why should people who want an intelligent, healthy pet have to take a cast-off from the show ring?
Honestly, you can’t breed for everything. How show breeders convince themselves that you can is beyond me.
While the livestock methods are not perfect if applied to pets, I do have to say that they have no problems dealing with reality. They are out to make a profit and they have a bottom line.
Show breeders don’t have a bottom line. Most lose money hand over fist. So too do most trialers lose money. They don’t have to produce a product that anyone else wants to buy on its own merit. They are selling a fantasy. And in the case of “working” BCs, the market price is rock bottom compared to any other breed.
The worst are the jock sniffers who have never won a trial thinking that they are going to sell their dogs to “working homes only.” Good luck with that people.
Exactly. And that goes to the heart of the problem: over-selection in breeding, which reduces diversity, whether it’s over-selection for physical or working characteristics, and breeding specifically for competition basically requires that kind of breeding.
Jess recently posted..Superman Batman 78
now consider this post:
Permission to crosspost:
Thank you Libbye Miller DVM for stating:
“Adorable mixed breeds” get cancer, epilepsy, allergies, heart disease, and
orthopedic problems just like purebreds. I see it every day in my veterinary
practice but mixed breed dogs aren’t tracked like the purebreds so they have
a reputation as “healthier” that is actually undeserved in many cases.”
It is so sad that a lot of folks, including young veterinarians these days,
buy into the “hybrid vigor” baloney. The vet schools have been infiltrated
by the Animal Rights Extremists, who are teaching them this junk science in
order to push their agenda.
All animals have a certain amount of genetic load, which is to say there is
absolutely no animal without some genetic problem of some sort of another.
Know anyone who wears glasses? Has allergies? Thyroid problems? Weak knees?
Flat feet? A skin condition? Arthritis? A gap between their front teeth?
These are all genetic imperfections.
No human is genetically “clean.” Neither is any individual of any species on
earth. So this idea that dogs should not be bred because they might have a
genetic problem, and that breeders are somehow “evil” for breeding them, is
ridiculous. Every single individual of every single species has at least a
few genetic conditions.
To use PeTA’s logic, all breeding of all kinds (including having human
babies) should halt immediately. And to be honest, Ingrid Newkirk (the woman
who founded PETA) does believe exactly that. She thinks that humans should
become extinct, along with dogs, cats, etc. This ridiculous scenario is
precisely what she would like to see happen.
So folks, if that is what you want…if you agree with Ingrid Newkirk’s
whacky views, send your hard earned money to PETA. They will help to ensure
you are not able to own a dog or cat or hamster or any other pet in the
future. They will see to it that you can’t eat meat or fish or eggs or any
type of animal-based nutrition. They will work to shut down places like Sea
World, the zoos, etc. so you cannot observe the many wonderful animals on
the Earth. Eventually, once they accomplish these things, they may turn
their efforts to making it illegal for humans to procreate.
If you don’t agree with their extremist views, wise up and start supporting
those who truly do love, care for and enjoy interaction with other species
here on our little blue planet.
The fanciers of the breeds, those you see exhibiting their dogs at
Westminster and other dog shows, work very hard to eliminate serious genetic
conditions. They screen their breeding stock with every available test. They
research pedigrees before breeding into other lines, to check for similar
clearances in those animals. They contribute money to research organizations
to further the work being done to track down genetic problems. They
contribute blood, cell samples, etc. from their own animals to help with DNA
and genome studies. They have made great progress so far, and they continue
to work hard at it.
Are there unethical breeders? Certainly, there are. Just as in any group of
humans, you will find the good and the bad. United States VP Elect Joe
Biden, for example, managed to find a not so good one when he got his new
German Shepherd puppy. I don’t know who did his research for him, but they
obviously didn’t do their homework if they were looking for a responsible
breeder. Joe has the right to get his dog from whomever he wishes, but if he
was trying to set an example of purchasing from a responsible hobby breeder
he went off the track this time. That’s too bad, but it was his choice.
Unfortunately, breeders like that may be a lot easier to find because of
their high volume and high profile. If you are looking for a nice family pet
from a breeder who will be there for you forever, you need to do due
diligence. You won’t get that from a pet store. You won’t get that from the
guy selling dogs out of his pickup truck in the WalMart parking lot. You
won’t get that support from a high-volume breeder, either. Yes, it takes a
little more time and effort to find someone who really cares and does all
the work to breed the healthiest, happiest puppies possible and then stands
behind those puppies.
This is a living being that will be part of your family, hopefully, for many
years. Isn’t it worth a bit of effort to find a breeder who will be there
for you and that puppy forever?
And guess what? Shows like Westminster are a very valuable resource for
finding breeders who do care and who use the best possible practices, as
well as for learning more about the various breeds.
Bravo to USA Network for broadcasting the Westminster Kennel Club show all
these years. May they enjoy continued success through the ongoing inclusion
of such programs. I will be eagerly watching this year’s show!”
Dr. Libbye Miller
Sadly, that’s a bogus post attributed to Dr. Miller. Here’s the entire extent of what she actually posted. The rest is just garbage.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/caninechat/archives/159986.asp
If you look at the starting sentence and the quotation mark at the end of the first paragraph, it’s easy to see what happened. Someone quoted some text from Dr Miller and then went on a rant. Some other person posted it elsewhere thinking it all came from her.
Sadly, what the DVM said is true. There’s no guarantee with a multi-poo, especially a poorly bred one. She’s telling people (buyers) to do their homework and not rely on a sales pitch. All that is true.
The rest of that rant is just bogus.
It seems like there’s a lot of uneducated people posting stuff and either taking credit for it inappropriately or attributing it falsely.
To further put this whole series into context, anyone up for an ambitious historical review of significant turning points in dog breeding in the 20th century?
Like a “People’s History of Dog Breeding:1900 to present,” a la Howard Zinn? However summarized it would have to be, it would still be interesting to see through this perspective.
Trying to see where we are in relation to watershed moments…
Here are some good histories on it:
1. http://www.amazon.com/Lost-History-Canine-Race-000-Year/dp/0836205480
2. Origins of the Closed Registry System (about the fancy collie): http://tinyurl.com/2376sfx
3. http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-History-America-Conquered-Continent/dp/0865476314
retrieverman recently posted..Freytag chattin’
http://www.terrierman.com/inbredthinking.htm
I don’t agree with all of this, but it’s a good start to the beginnings of the breeding “in and in” system.
retrieverman recently posted..Freytag chattin’
Oh, hell no, the MHC thing is time consuming enough 🙂 You can kind of generalize some, though. Prior to the 50/60s dog breeding was, for the most part, dominated by wealthy people who kept large kennels with lots of dogs, bred LOTS of litters, and culled mercilessly, and not just puppies. There was no shame in making money off your dogs, either, although, since you were wealthy, you didn’t need to. I’ll actually talk about how modern ‘responsible’ breeding practices contract the gene pool in one the next posts I do. I’ve talked about it several times on Scottie’s blog already. The move from large scale breeding (lots of dogs to choose from for the next generation) to small scale breeding (few litters, very few dogs to choose from) has been extremely detrimental to the gene pool. I have a very early advertisement for an American Afghan hound kennel, touting how fun it is to breed Afghans, buy your breeding stock now. That would never fly nowadays.
Jess recently posted..Superman Batman 78
In West Virginia, it is not unusual to see people advertise “breeding pairs” of dogs in classified ads and “trader’s guide” classified sheets.
But we missed the memo that it is bad form to breed dogs in this fashion.
I subscribe to a game bird hobbyist’s magazine, and they sell all kinds of interesting breeding stock in the classifieds. I saw someone selling ruffed grouse a few years ago, and ruffed grouse have never bred in captivity.
retrieverman recently posted..Freytag chattin’
“Breeding pairs” as in two a brother and sister from the same litter/clutch, etc.?
Nah.
Generally they aren’t of the same line at all.
Just pets.
For some reason, in West Virginia, the tendency is to call Norwegian elkhounds “Norwegians.”
I have often seen ads for breeding pairs of Norwegians.
That’s about like the town called “Big Ugly.”
Real headline: “Big Ugly Man Convicted of Insurance Fraud.Z”
retrieverman recently posted..Freytag chattin’
The problem with doing history with dog breeding is that most of the people who would otherwise be trusted to have kept accurate information have romanticized their history so much that very little can be trusted.
I’ll point again to my debunking of the Queen Victoria fantasy. I contacted the two authors who wrote a book that supposedly debunked other breed histories and asked what their sources were for the QV information, as I found it lacking. Well, an unsourced note in the AKC archives from the 1970s. Well, a 40 year old lie is still a lie!
I showed them my evidence and they agreed that it trumped anything they had.
So really, “scholarship” in this area is sketchy at best. We’ve probably found out more truth from recent DNA studies by scientists than what we thought was fact from forged breed histories.
Remember, a sizable portion of Americans believe in “Intelligent Design” so do you really think we’re going to get rational information from people who are playing god? If they think that they can tell what the ideal dog is based on Platonic standard and judged by geriatrics in a little ring, do we trust that they can’t fudge the history as well?
Another block is that stud books are generally not published.
Thanks, I’ll keep reading, and building the time line in my head. Artist says- Graphics, need more graphics (which have been excellent here). I’m trying to sync the the more recent gains in scientific understanding with certain breed histories (i.e. BC or GR) and overlay whatever sociological shifts in breeding as a whole.
Maybe an ambitious collaboration for another time…
On the request: the best analogy I’ve got is that for the layperson, understanding the gravity of the current breeding situation is like fitting together a jigsaw puzzle without the image on the box.
So I’ve got sections together here and there. Huge chunks are respectively taking shape on the scientific front, the breeder philosophy front, and specific breed history front. But how do they fit together? What breeds are the best case-in-point examples of the larger dilemmas? What are the turning points of the past that help us understand how these all fit to form the conditions of today?
Just trying to really, really see the big picture.
These are actually harder questions than I want to answer. I like to generalize, because I’m lazy. I’ll think about it. It may make a good post.
Jess recently posted..Superman Batman 78
The histories of closed registries and of extremes in inbreeding are very hard to piece together.
The worst example I can think of in dogs is the bull terrier, which is the most inbred of all kennel club breeds.
This happened for a variety of reasons. One of them is that the no-stop feature on the head was hard to fix in the original population, so they inbred. Then the UK banned cropping, and erect ears became hard to breed for. Then in 1917, a dog was born with no stop at all (Lord Gladiator), and the whole breed was based off his genetics. Then they bred for the downface.
And then they split them into mini and standard breeds.
And even with the attempt to create a colored variety, things didn’t work out.
The original coloreds were derived from crosses with staffies (one of which was a bulldog/Manchester terrier cross), so they had to breed very close to get them to look like normal white bull terriers.
Each of these breeds has a story like this one, but in generally, they aren’t as extreme as this.
The original bull terriers weren’t like the Spuds Mackenzie dogs at all.
retrieverman recently posted..Freytag chattin’
I don’t mind the downface so much, but I wish the modern Bullies had the more athletic body of the old ones. Those were handsome dogs!
I’m my own grandpa This song seems appropriate!
Andy Ward recently posted..Old-Time Scotch Collie 2011 calendar