Nothing says “Happy Father’s Day” like advertising the stud services of a double merle Collie who can produce an all-merle brood [the breeder removed this page. Here is a cache] of show prospect puppies, right?
Meet Wyndlair Avalanche, a “double dilute” homozygous merle Collie who was purposefully bred to create a sire who would always produce blue merle puppies.
Nothing to see here, folks. No really, the dog can't see shit.
Among Wyndlair Avalanche’s many show ring accomplishments, you’ll notice that none of them are his! And why would the product of two show champions (Southland’s Beyond the Glory x Twin City Wyndlair Anthem) and the sire of more than a dozen champions himself not have a “Ch.” before his name? His breeder has the #1 Collie in the USA right now (his son GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication), it’s certainly not from lack of effort or resources.
Well, he can’t see to get around the ring because he’s blind due to the merle gene.
I would point out that Wyndlair Avalanche is producing some exquisite puppies. I have had conversations with one of his co-breeders and, yes, he is blind but he gets around fine and romps with the other dogs and is enjoying life.
In a horrible bit of irony, one of the breeders who has used Avalanche quotes Helen Keller on her webpage, saying “All that we love deeply, becomes a part of us!” I have to wonder what sort of sick people love a color on their dog so deeply that they are perfectly willing to create and use a diseased and dysfunctional sire just so they can boast:
An all blue merle litter is due mid-March!
Would a half blue merle litter be unacceptable? So unacceptable that they would support the breeding of a Sable Merle with a Blue Merle to produce a litter with 25% double dilute homozygous merles? It was not a mistake or done out of ignorance. This dog was created by people who know exactly what the risks are.
This exquisite homozygous blue merle is everything we hoped for from such beautiful parents. He is one of the most exquisite Collies ever bred at Wyndlair. Aiden possesses beautiful length, cleanness & lightness of head with a pretty profile, huge outline, strong rear & breathtaking presence.
From his birth, we knew Aiden was destined to be truly special. As his puppies have completed their championships in amazing style, our belief in him has been affirmed! Congratulations to his many kids on their smashing success in this country and beyond!
Notice how they conveniently leave out that he’s blind.
This lack of ethics in pursuit of aesthetics is what discredits the entire show community and makes all dog breeders susceptible to legal and moral attacks from the Animal Rights movement. It’s one thing to shave poodles into silly topiary, it’s fundamentally worse to intentionally inflict disease upon our dogs for the sake of producing a few more blue merle puppies each litter.
Aesthetic frivolity reveling in cruelty and genetic deformity is an historical mark of the end of empires, the last gasp of corrupt cultures. It is a sign that the pendulum has swung too far. The Spanish Habspburg monarchy immortalized their facial deformities and the collection of genetic oddities they surrounded themselves at court in oil paintings. Before their fall they presided over the first truly global empire, but paranoia and demands for purity of blood ended up in a collection of genetic disorders that not only corrupted the mind but the fertility of the line.
Collies are an iconic show dog, with equal or superior claims to being show royalty versus any other breed who would seek that title. But the tides have turned against the most obvious of the show ring freaks and it’s unlikely that breeding behavior like this will be looked on favorably by the layperson. They’ve already been twisted way beyond anyone’s fond memories of Lassie or that old farm collie into angular and wedge faced beady eyed freaks. Now, even today, even with the knowledge of what harm they are doing, we have the breeder of the Nation’s #1 Collie creating and reveling in their blind blue-merle maker.
This is a moral test and the AKC has failed. Instead of shunning this dog, this breeder, and this behavior; they have bestowed their Breeder of Merit Award on the kennel who used him to produce their “all blue merle litter!”
update: Since one of the breeder’s in question removed their litter advertisement in response to this article, here is a snapshot:
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This is somewhat like the white boxers. You have to tolerate whites in order to breed for flashy markings, which don’t breed true at all.
But this is far worse.
I can see lots of fad collie breeders keep double merle studs for this purpose.
Retrieverman recently posted..Chat room
What a sad, sad moment.
Dave recently posted..Hark, a Vallhund
Yes. And I’m eeeeeevil because I produce mutts.
Jess recently posted..Water is Life
Nothing wrong with mutts, they usually make the best pets. At least most of the mutt dogs I’ve ever known have had much sweeter temperaments than most of the pedigrees I’ve known.
I went to my tiny local rescue / pound to look for a mutt to adopt 4 years ago – there were no mutts. Only 7 dogs were there and all were breeds.
As I wanted a dog that would do well in a city apartment I took the only dog that wasn’t barking at my presence in the kennels (just staring soulfully at me with large brown eyes) – which happened to be a working-type border collie.
He has turned out to fit in perfectly with my life (he almost never barks and is very obedient) and I don’t regret taking him on at all but he has come with several health issues, the worst of which is cataracts (despite the vet estimating that he is only now 6 years old). He can still see and the vet assures me that it will take some time before he is completely blind, but it angers me that issues like this are so common with pedigrees in the first place – this is exactly why I wanted a mutt!
Eh..I’d say the temperament is more of a individual bases,I’d actually say I meet more friendly purebreds then mutts,but that’s just my own experience.
The only thing missing from the equation are drone dogs. The stud is not far off being a queen ant.
Dave recently posted..No Wonder Why No One Talks About Odin Anymore
Did you notice his pedigree? Parents are half-siblings on their sire’s side.
I noticed the common kennel names all over the pedigree, but missed the close inbreeding. Good catch. I wonder if there is an online db that could tell us his COI.
Half-sibling and even some full-sibling breedings are not uncommon in Salukis. Remind me to send you some pedigrees some time.
Jess recently posted..Water is Life
You made the mistake of assuming that merle-to-to merle breedings always produce double dilutes, this is simply not true. You also made the mistake that all double-dilutes are blind, check out how many DD compete in AKC events to see this is not true. You also made the mistake that the breeder did this breeding “to get blues”. Please check your facts! If the dog is healthy and sound and well-cared for, why not use him at stud if he doesn’t produce the blindness?
Laura, I don’t see anywhere where I make those claims. Can you please quote me saying that a Merle to Merle ALWAYS produces double dilutes? Can you quote me saying that ALL double dilutes are blind? I never said these things. What is true, is that any Merle to Merle breeding ALWAYS has the ability to produce dogs that are deaf, blind, or have other problems. What is true is that breeders have NO ability to prevent the effects of single or double merle in their stock if they breed Merle and Merle to Merle. They can only prevent the production of double dilutes by never breeding Merle to Merle.
If you would like to highlight the accomplishments of double dilute dogs and the breeding decisions behind them, you are welcome to. But we know that DDs can’t compete in conformation as the color is a disqualifying fault. I am not aware of a publication that lists dogs by color in performance events, so if you would like to talk about these dogs, then name the dogs and tell us about their accomplishments and then we can talk about why you think intentionally risking disabled double dilutes was worth the risk to produce these dogs.
I do not believe that I made any mistake regarding the breeder’s intentions. On their own webpage, which I include in the article, the ONE AND ONLY selling point of the litter is that they are all going to be blue merles.
Also, the dog is not healthy and sound, he’s blind and deaf! I also have a breeder’s opinion regarding less than stellar aspects of his conformation and what he produces. And the assumption that it’s just fine to use him because there’s no way he passes along any dysfunction is not a good one. First off, there’s no way to evaluate this dog’s hereditary hearing or vision given that he is so disabled and scientific studies have documented that not only does disability exist with only a single copy of Merle, that double dilutes that have disability are more likely to pass along disability even in the single merle offspring. The aspect of Avalanche’s breeding and selection are also troublesome. His sire appears to have fertility problems as Avalanche was born in a litter of ONE and he’s messed up, and when the sire was used in a double sire litter, none of the puppies were his. That doesn’t speak to healthy lines at all.
Why take the chance I don’t care if it was even a much lower chance than it actually is it is not worth the risk. They should breed merle to a non merle & lower any risks hugely but no becuase it is all about color no matter what they say & you want to believe.
surely to produce this dog in the first place was truly wrong… was he the only dog in the litter.. if not what happened to the others!!! where they deaf and blind as well… and to breed on from a dog which such disabilities… then give the breeder a diploma from the AKC is well unspeakable and disgraceful… who knows what happens to offspring in future generations re sight and hearing and colour… just unbelievable that a top breeder can think its OK , I just feel so sorry for the animals involved not their choice to be bred into a life of silence and darkness…
There was. It was Leslie Mamer’s pedigree database site but it crached. there are a couple of free programs out there that will compute COI. One is from Breeder’s Assistant. Least last time I looked.
Hi Karen,
Sorry to get off topic, but I am interested in both copies of:
Collie Club of America 1969 Yearbook (2 copies) Spiral-Binding in good condition, no loose or torn pages. Errata slip laid in; fold out color chart on “color inheritance”.
And if you have extra “color inheritance” charts, I would get those also.
Thank you,
Scott
Oh Chris this posting on your site fits better:http://www.border-wars.com/2010/10/inbreeding-screwing-yourself.html.
On the lighter side.
What does one Champion Sire say to his son? Son I am not only your Paw but I am your Uncle on your mother side your Great Uncle on my side, your Grandfather on both sides and now you will make me a Great Grand Paw and a Grand Paw. Son says well what I call you Paw? Do I have to call you all this Paw?
Wait just a moment. I personally have seen Avalanche. He CAN see. I saw him run full speed around a very large field and not fall or bump into anything. Before you go spouting off about a double merle I suggest you actually talk to the breeders. Double merles can have normal hearing and vision and can produce puppies that have normal vision and hearing. I have an Avalanche daughter and she hears just fine and can see everything. Before sharing your ignorance I suggest you get the facts straight. Double merles can be very highly prized for the contributions to the gene pool of a breeder’s family of dogs. Avalanche is a stunningly beautiful example of true collie type with a long lean head and beautiful body. He is a valuable stud and a very well sought after one too. Trashing him or any other dog because he/they are double dilutes only shows how little you know about breeding dogs and such ignorant people should NOT breed dogs of any breed!
Just because a dog can use their other senses does not mean they are not blind! I have a blind sheltie and she runs with the best of them. She is perfect to me, but I would never consider passing this on to another dog!
Sharon, I am really concerned about your post. What concerns me is that you are using the word “can” so many times. Yes, there is a possibility for double merles to see, but you risk the possibility of terrible health issues in the process of trying to achieve a double merle in good health. I believe that this controversy over breeding merle to merle is not about bashing these innocent dogs, its about helping them. It’s about making sure that no litter of puppies has to suffer for a breeder’s wish to produce a perfect double merle. The ignorance here would be to ignore the suffering and tragedy that merle to merle breeding has caused.
To understand Sharon’s point of view, you really need to steeped fairly heavily in the tea of show culture, where the ends justify the means for some people.
I read an article recently from one show Collie breeders perspective, and it was very illuminating, although not in the way she meant it, I’m sure. The article is ‘the Unpardonable Fault,’ at the link below. It’s a pdf file.
http://www.impromptucollies.com/articles.asp
Jess recently posted..Comments on the Proposed APHIS Rule Change Close Tomorrow at Midnight
Awesome post–thank you for explaining better than I ever could what is wrong with this picture! Dog shows are not much less creepy than beauty pageants for toddlers I think–although I guess no one is trying to create a mutant race of mentally deficient, inbred toddlers with the sole aim of winning beauty pageants…yet? lol
or BLIND toddlers for that matter… 🙁
Thanks Kate. This really is what we should be talking about when we discuss ETHICS. For some reason people think ethics is about gross abuses, like kicking a dog in the face or keeping it locked up in a rabbit hutch for its whole life.
No, we don’t have to have and enforce ethical standards to fend off the worst abuses. Those are clear and self explanatory and they are most likely covered by animal welfare laws.
What community like dog breeders needs to do regarding ethics is to enforce behavior that is probably not illegal but which discredits the group and harms the dogs. For example, we should have ethics rules against the shaving, plucking, NAIRing, etc. of Chinese Cresteds which are not hairless and claiming that they are hairless. This is not only fraud, it’s abusive to the dogs.
We should have breeders who don’t need rules who appreciate that creating this double merle sire is cruelty, abuse, and unnecessary to produce quality blue merle dogs. It’s cruelty to be LAZY and cut corners.
This is what ethics violations look like. Smiling, happy, successful people who could probably answer the question “are you good to your dogs” with a yes and mean it. But who have let ribbons and esteem trump the core values of doing right by the dogs.
If I took a hot poker and blinded my dogs now, they’d throw me in a mental institution. But apparently if I accomplish the same result by abusing disease genetics, I get an award and lots and lots of ribbons.
Christopher recently posted..Branding the Cattle
I am wondering about the litter that produced this dog. How many puppies, how many were normal?
I wonder how common merle x merle breedings actually are? I have only known one breeder, personally, with a merle x merle breeding, it was an accident, and IIRC all but two pups were so defective they were euthanized. This was a good sized litter, at least six pups. The breeder was devastated and said they couldn’t understand why anyone would do a breeding like that on purpose.
Jess recently posted..Random Doggage: Souilly Has the Mange
MxM breedings are not uncommon in Australian shepherds. Although I know the general rule is that 1/4 of the pups will be MM, I wonder if there may be some other factor in place. I have heard of rather large litters of normally-marked puppies from MxM crosses. While I suspect the breeder(s) may cull at birth, we’re talking 8, 9, 10 or more non-MM puppies in a litter. If 25% of the pups were destroyed or even resorbed, those litters were huge for Aussies. And, yes, I’ve heard of other litters with a much higher percentage of MM pups.
I sent the breeder the following questions, I’ll let you know if and when they respond.
Christopher recently posted..I Smell A Rat
I had a collie growing up with a sable colored head, a patch on its back & at the base of its tail. Pretty white to everyone who saw him. Normal colored eyes etc.
I don’t recall this obsession with merle; though years later when it was time to get “the family pet” my wife & I got another sable collie. Tricolors and blue merles were becoming more popular, but when blue merles were mentioned we knew that they could be deaf, blind or both.
Wow. More than 40 people have “Liked” this post in the last hour. The count is now up to 108. That’s more likes than all my other posts combined (probably), as few get more than 10. It’s already generated 1,645 hits today and 1,010 yesterday. To put that in perspective, my current monthly total is 11,123 views. Crazy, huh?
Christopher recently posted..Who’s Your Double Merle Daddy?
While deploring the idea of M/M breedings, I can’t support this article — because you don’t know yet if the breeding really was intended as a M/M breeding. A lot of collie folk don’t want to breed blue merle to sable because it isn’t always obvious the sable dog is / isn’t merle (although now there’s a DNA test to verify it). It’s possible (not probable, but at least possible) that this was NOT a deliberate M/M breeding. If it wasn’t, using the resultant offspring is not, IMO, a moral failing. I’m sure a little effort might have discovered a case where the M/M breeding was clearly deliberate.
If this dog was NOT the result of a deliberate M/M breeding (because they didn’t know the sable was a merle or because of an accidental breeding), then you have gone after a breeder for the wrong reasons. And that dilutes your message. It would have been better to get an answer from your inquiry BEFORE posting this article.
Peggy Richter.
Both parents are registered as Merle, and the advertising campaign for this dog began as a puppy. Do you find any reason, any post, any suggestion that this was an unhappy accident made good?
Read this sentence again and tell me if you detect one ounce of regret, remorse, or even reluctant learning experience on the breeder’s part:
Frankly, I don’t think it would even matter if this was a complete ignorant accident, they are lying about the dog’s blindness by not disclosing it and they are actively campaigning him as a stud dog and celebrating his ability to throw all merle puppies. This, by itself, is reprehensible. It certainly encourages more of this behavior by wannabe breeders and discloses none of the risks.
How many short cut seeking jock sniffing new breeders are there who would find reason to repeat this little experiment seeing that the #1 Collie Breeder is doing so and getting ribbons left and right from it? Even one is too many.
Need I point out that this is literally the blind leading the blind?
Christopher recently posted..Who’s Your Double Merle Daddy?
More like blonde leading the blind.
Dave recently posted..You Don’t Call Us, We Call You!
*ahem* I was born blonde, thank you very much.
Jess recently posted..Random Doggage: Souilly Has the Mange
I was also born blond.
I was a dead-ringer for the Lindbergh baby.
Retrieverman recently posted..Ch. Noranby Diana in profile
Oh good, I am the resident double-merle. I need a guide-person.
Dave recently posted..Red Viking Dog
Thank you Jess so was I and both my children. Kathy
The progeny of a Mm X Mm mating should NOT be allowed to be registered, particularly the MM offspring. A policy like that would end such intentional unethical matings. Why is AKC not only allowing but REWARDING such reprehensible behavior?
AKC is concerned solely with registrations ($$$) and a false facade of prestige. No concern about humane breeding or ethics.
DISGUSTING.
Starbreeze recently posted..FOX LA-Journalistic stupidity
I mostly agree with your article, but begin to diverge when it, and the comments, start a) blaming everything on the AKC and b) begin to blame all show breeders and lump all show breeders into a single class of people who are unethical and interested only in show ribbons.
To Starbreeze, the AKC is a non-profit organization. They have always been a studbook and registry, in fact that was their primary purpose. As such, if a dog is the offspring of two parents who are registered with the AKC, that dog is purebred and may be registered. The AKC does not, and never has, controlled breeders (um, who could??? legally, no one) or set policy for breed clubs. Nor should they. People who like to stab at the AKC love to point out that they are only in it for $$$. Somehow the whole non-profit aspect gets ignored. Yes. AKC makes money off of registrations. And yes, they need money to run. The money they make allows them to support the infrastructure of the thousands of dog shows run under their banner each year (including not just breed but agility, obedience, rally, herding, lure coursing, earthdog, field trials, hunt tests, etc.). The AKC also donates millions of dollars to canine genetic health research. The AKC also donates millions of dollars and a lot of staff expertise to help combat legislative threats from the radical animal rights movement.
So please, let’s separate AKC from crappy breeders, and let’s separate crappy breeders from good ones. Me, I find the MM breedings heinous. I think breed clubs should not allow MM dogs to be shown and should strongly discourage MM breeding in their Code of Ethics. That doesn’t mean they will not be produced, but it should make it more clear that they are not desired.
But having been in dogs for over 25 years now and having competed in a number of areas, I have to say that show/conformation breeders are not alone in making very bad breeding decisions for the sake of the dollar or a win. Purpose breeding mixes to make a faster flyball dog. Breeding extreme drive to extreme drive with no thought of livability (or sanity for that matter) for agility. Breeding dogs with known hip dysplasia, eye problems, and other major health disorders because they are field champions or schutzhund 3.
Way easier to point the finger at someone else rather than looking in your own closet…
Robinjn,
Don’t make the some-all fallacy, I’m not talking about all breeders or even all show breeders or all of anyone. I’m talking very specifically about the creation of double merle dogs. Perhaps the motivation to win ribbons is more universal than that, but that is a motive, not a condemnation. I’m not asking people to stop chasing ribbons, I’m asking them to not do THIS in that pursuit.
The reason I’m writing about it is because the legislation that will likely be drafted and campaigned for against this issue by the AR folks will not make any distinctions on show breeders vs. non show breeders… it will be sweeping and general and likely to cause problems to breeders who never have and never would consider creating a double Merle.
So I’m not blaming *everything* on the AKC. I said this was a test for the AKC and the AKC has failed that test. They are clearly the body that is in the best position to stop this OR stop rewarding it. Certainly they can’t prevent private citizens from breeding these dogs, but they can with the swipe of a pen stop registering them and stop giving them ribbons and breeder distinction awards. And that would do a whole lot to stop this practice and remove it from the list of grievances of the AR lobby. If you think this is an issue better suited for the powers and purview of the Collie breed club, so be it! By all means. I hope they stop this.
But I don’t think that we should be so naive as to believe that the AR lobby and the laws they will try (and perhaps succeed) at getting passed will make the distinctions that you wish to be made. I don’t think there is enough distance between breeders who don’t do this and breeders who do for some law to not hurt all of us who breed dogs and register them with the AKC.
So I’m not pointing my finger at someone else to divert attention from me or make me feel better, I’m pointing the finger at them so that their actions will not bring down the banhammer of legislation and destroy the institutions that I find useful and supportive to my goals. This is a cancer that needs to be cut out before it hurts us all.
Christopher I get your point about MM breedings. However, it is not really within AKC’s power to stop registering dogs that are purebred. It is a purebred dog registry. It is not, never has been and never has claimed to be, a guardian of any breed. Its job is to maintain the studbooks, and provide a piece of paper to owners that certifies that a certain dog is indeed of purebred, registered parents and can be traced through all its generations via that studbook.
I more than know your frustration. In 1979 a random mutation popped up in the Doberman Pinscher. An albino was born. When this female, later named Sheba, was a puppy, the DPCA, the parent club of the Doberman Pinscher, was given a chance to purchase her. They declined, and not only that, they were very ugly to Sheba’s owner. Result? Sheba was extensively bred to her littermates, more alibinos were produced, and it proceeded to become a fad. These dogs also have a lot of health conditions based strictly on the fact that they are albino. The DPCA tried very hard (after they had let the horse out of the barn) to get the AKC to stop registering albinos. AKC’s position was that this was a purebred dog. AKC *did* agree to give a specific registration number to all of Sheba’s descendants which marked them as albino factored.
To not register a purebred dog would remove the core basis of AKC’s existence as a studbook and registry of purebred dogs. The real power here belongs with the breed club. The AKC is governed by its breed clubs, and the breed clubs hold the future of each breed. I notice that this breeder is not only a member of the National Collie Club but also a member of the Collie Health Foundation. I looked up her dogs in the OFA database. She has a total of two dogs with any OFA certifications, each has a hip dysplasia clearance. Not a single Wyndlair dog has a CERF.
Instead of looking to the AKC, I would be asking sharp questions about why a breeder who openly produces lethal MM and uses blind MM dogs at stud is allowed to even be in the National club, much less on its health committee. This points to a huge ethical void at the breed club level.
Well you looked me up. Well your reference works is needs alot of improvement. Kathy
Why can’t the AKC rule to not register pups from a merle to merle breeding, they have put rules in place about how often a bitch is breed & not breeding father to daughter so why no make a ruling about merle to merle litters?
This is why I’m so angrey with many of the pure breed kennel clubs world wide they seem to be able to make rules concerning many aspects of our breeding programes yet not tackle health & high COI breedings.
I think money talks & those that register many litters get a lot more say than those smaller breeders & unfortunatly many volume breeders health testing etc leave a lot of room for improvement.
This is very upsetting to me. Merle is pretty and all, but because of the nature of it in the homozygous form this practice should stop. If this breeding was intentional, I am greatly disappointed in the breeders. Intentionally producing an animal that is handicapped should be punishable. Is merle really that important? I don’t think the color looks very nice with a coat that long, anyway.
Steph recently posted..Invasive Species: Red Lionfish
Steph, That’s the crime. You can have merle without ever doing this to a dog!
And as I will cover in more depth in a future post, “intentionally producing an animal that is handicapped should be punishable” is really the next step of looking at this issue. My take is that actions like this just BEG the animal rights activists to come after you because they are clearly cruel and they are of little benefit. This doesn’t need to be done. And frankly the practice is not appealing to the layperson, you have to really be indoctrinated in breeding culture to even have a prayer of thinking this is ok. And what do the laypeople say when they see this: “There should be a law!!” And odds are, if there is a law, it will be sweeping and overreaching and have unintended consequences that will likely hurt all breeders. That’s why this issue should be handled by a Code of Ethics in the breed club or in the AKC.
These types of laws already do exist in parts of Europe. “Qualzucht” literally means torture breeding and this sort of thing would fall under their reach.
Ding Ding Ding! Christopher wins the internets today!
AKC needs to step up to the plate or get out of the way. With the advent of PDE and the Purebred Paradox Conference (sponsored by HSUS Center for Science and POLICY, I might add) breeding practices are coming under public scrutiny. The UK KC was tried in the public eye and found wanting; AKC, as the most prominent registry in the US, in regards to conformation events, is next in the cross-hairs. Breeders had better be ready to justify their practices, and ‘tradition’, ‘we’ve always done it that way,’ and ‘you just want to take away our rights’ isn’t going to cut it.
Jess recently posted..Random Doggage: Souilly Has the Mange
That is very true. If nothing else, breed clubs should include an aspect to their Code of Ethics that will kick breeders of intentional merle-merle crosses out and thus cause the kennels to loose credibility.
People who want puppies from kennels like this need to be informed of these sorts of practices.
Steph recently posted..Guess The Genotype #2
You know, you lose quite a bit of ground when you insult an entire breed without basis, like calling Rough/Smooth Collies “angular and wedge faced beady eyed freaks.”
I know show-quality roughs and smoothies that can outwork working-line borders with NO issues whatsoever.
It’s got nothing to do with whether or not the show-quality collies can compete with working collies.
The collie breed has changed a lot over the century. Even “Howard” and “Hey Hey,” from the 1997-1999 television series, are fairly moderate compared to the show dogs. If you ask the general public, they will think of the iconic Weatherwax bloodline, not the dogs you see trotting around the ring. I know because when I showed pictures of the collies winning the titles in today’s ring, the average layperson wonders what the heck happened to them and they have become monsters.
Considering we are going down the path of qualzucht criticisms among average petowners, who have more political sways and voting powers over dog breeders, people are in for a rude awaking. It is the last thing anyone wants. So, his critique of beady-eyed wedge-headed dogs fits, especially since the blogger in question is a whistleblower.
Dave recently posted..Mystery Mountain Spitz
Perhaps I do lose ground, but I would rather not lose credibility. My goal is not to be popular, my goal is to tell the truth, and that includes my opinion on the aesthetics of the collie. And that opinion is relevant here because I turn it into an argument, specifically that I don’t believe the pursuit of the ugly aesthetic is worth immoral breeding practices. You’re welcome to believe that these dogs are beautiful, but can you make the argument that such beauty is worth the harm caused to get it? The harm is real, the beauty is subjective.
I look at this dog and absolutely see an angular, wedge faced, beady eyed freak. What do you see? (And can this dog see anything back? Does it even HAVE eyes?)
This dog is a descendant of the one mentioned in this article. So sad.
Geez, even “Laddie” has facial expression.
Dave recently posted..Working Swedish Duck Toller
…What’s up with that dog’s ears?
All the hair inside has been ripped out from gluing on braces to make the ears stand up and fold the way the breeder wants them.
Christopher recently posted..Double Merle Breeders Don’t Want You to See This
Can rough collies even be born with naturally tipped ears anymore? Or is it another case of people faking correctness for the ring until the real trait was lost because nobody actually bred for it anymore?
Yes, there are collie strains with naturally tipped ears. A lot goes into the properly tipped ear. The size, shape of the ear. The thickness and pliability of the ear leather. The placement of the ear on the skull. Plus, the ear leather starts to get stiff just the time a collie puppy starts to teeth. The hormones during teething cause the ear to tip and untip day by day. This makes things difficult because the ear leather is stiffening at the same time. For this reason, many breeders will put tape the puppies ears during the teething period to help them hold their proper shape.. The tipped ear is not necessary for the collie to work. Mobility of the ear on the skull is more important than whether the ear is tipped. However, the tipped ear does a lot to showcase proper collie expression which is a major hallmark of the breed.
It’s sad how that term, “expression,” has changed over the years. While it’s clear that there is a lot of focus on it (I’ve read people who refer to the Collie as a “head breed”), I think it’s morphed in meaning pretty substantially over time.
Some collie lines have become the show equivalent of the people who go overboard with plastic surgery. Certainly expressive, but in a grotesque sort of way.
This has actually stripped a lot of true expression, that ability to be aware and engaging with the face, out of the breed and they look sort of vapid and unable to focus and emote. The buried eyes especially lose a lot of communication ability.
Chris just like the Border Collie that I now see in the ring. The expectation that all show dogs must be presented in the same manner. My heart fell to my feet when I watched the movement of the show ring Border Collie. Kathy
Karen you obviously have never seen the expression of a collie show with tulip ears. He would move around the ring with his ears in position that was natural and functional for a herding dog. When presented to the judge the collie came to attention and the ears with muscle to do so pulled his ears to attention. The tulip ear folded over into a tip. Now that really showed expression in my opinion instead of a collie that when the judge began to go over his head would shy away. Kathy
Yes, and it makes them head shy. Kathy
I saw that the breeder identified the bitch as a sable merle. I had not seen that she had been registered as a sable merle. If that was the case, then I stand corrected. Short of “wrong dog with wrong bitch” accident, then yes, this was a deliberate M/M breeding and the breeder has indeed done something wrong. Sadly, AKC doesn’t try to arbitrate these things. And “breed clubs” have limited authority no matter what one says. WHY should the Doberman club of America HAVE to buy that albino bitch? Nothing MADE the owner/breeder then go on to breed her. The Doberman club DID ask AKC to recind / deny albino Dobermans registration — and were denied. They did get a “compromise” of at least identifying on the pedigree if a dog is/isn’t albino. The problem is that PEOPLE are buying the albino Dobermans — if no one bought them, there would be no $ to it and those producing them would quit. If NO ONE buys from M/M breedings, ditto. But the problem is that currently, there is a reward to breeding these dogs that exceeds the penalties — with the insular show wins and “prestige”. Trying to force show people to do the right thing, however, is, IMO, an error. One ought to get a group of more moderate registered collies (they ARE out there) and start swamping the show ring. If presented with an alternative and better publicity FOR that alternative, I think a faster, easier desired result would occur rather than trying to legislate the desired result.
Peggy Richter
Peggy I am with you no more legislation. We as pure breed breeders must regulate ourselves or darn we will be regulated. Kathy
This hits painfully close to home for me, as the adopted mom of a rescue double merle Aussie.
Wash is a delightful dog with plenty of herding instinct but between his prick ears and limited sensory apparatus he is far from a model Aussie, which he can thank his irresponsible breeder for.
As a volunteer for an Aussie rescue, I found out that there was a woman near my home, a veterinary surgeon, who showed and bred Aussies. She was deliberately breeding merle to merle and double merle to double merle trying to create the “rare” white Aussie. She wanted a white dog with blue eyes. Any impaired pups were euthanized. As a vet she should have known better, but that color was so important to her that the lives of the dogs were no longer relevant. I don’t believe she ever succeeded, but she sure killed a lot of puppies.
Sadly, it is those kind of extremes that places the showing/breeding for show of any animal in a poor light. Breeders who place color before function should be ashamed.
I am quite amazed by people that appear to have nothing better to do that promote half truths or falsehood altogether, and think they have some kind of right to talk about things they obvisouly know very little about.
First off judging the motives and intents of others can be very inappropriate, and unless you are as righteous and holy as God , I would suggest that it might be wise to keep your opinions about others motives and intents to yourself or selves.
Many double dilutes can indeed see and here. The color gene and the gene for sight and hearing are interlinked, and double merles that have color on the ear and at or near around the eye, have been found in most cases to have sight and hearing.
As a collie breeder myself, I am not a fan of breeding merle to merle, but with that being said, I would not judge another breeder who feels that such a breeding is necessary for reasons they deem to be important. That being said, doing it over and over again, when there are obviously other alternatives would make me wonder about a breeders intent in doing so!
Breeders that have obtained double merles through their own selective breeding processes, at least ones I know and respect personally, did not do such breedings for the express reason of getting double merles. I also know of the breeding of merle to merle where no double dilutes resulted, which made the breeder of such a litter very happy, as their reason for the breeding was not for double merles but for the qualities of both the parents in the puppies and not double dilutes. Agree or disagree all you like, but selective breeding practices, the culling of puppies that do not fit the intent of the breeder, has been practiced for centuries. How do you think the breeds of today came about anyhow!!!!!!!
One of the dogs you mention on the article, that you say can not hear or see – This is completely false – I know for a fact that this dog can see and hear.
I myself have bred to one of the double dilutes you mention in your article. I have seen him live and in the flesh. He has much to offer our breed by way of hard to get sought after virtues that are very needed in our breed today that is for sure. I bred him to a tri colored bitch and obtained a beautiful healthy litter of blue babies who have since gone on to exciting show carrers, family companions, becoming parents themselves to offsrping that definitely show the improvements that were being sought by doing such a breeding in the first place, as well as become part of well established respected kennels overseas! It would be wrong to ignore what such a dog can bring to the table towards improvement of the breed overall, simply because of the make up of his color.! Perhaps those who are not breeders or those who only dabble in the breeding world, may not understand this, and there may be those who are full out breeders who still will disagree with my viewpoint on this issue, but one can not deny the fact that such a dog can have a great impact for the positive, on the breed, if utilized correctly in a breeding program. Breeding dogs is really about the stewardship of the breed you are working with, and I know there will be many out there who think selectively breeding two dogs that can produce such an animal is not stewardship at all. I go back to the motives and intents thing as I started this response!
THere is no advance of any sorrt in most anything in life unless risks are taken. Calculated risk that is taken with the intent being for improvement, advancement and betterment of our breed overall, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Not all breeders out there, truly care about the dogs they own or breed, this is true, and we have all seen a heard about such cases. Again that begin said, the opinions expressed in your articles here, tend to pont fingures at some breeders who truly do care about their animals, are very ethical, and treat their breeding programs from the perspective of stewardship that is needed to do this right.
Go back and look at what breeds where incorporated in the making of todays’ collie and the colors they currently come in and tell me that culling, risk taking and selective choices were not made in such an endevour!!!! Of course they were.. I for one applaud the breeders of the past who had the courage and fortitude to do what they did, or I would not be enjoying the wonderous breed I do today.,To think we have now arrived and that we now have some duty and obligation to speak out against people and their breeding practices when you know very litte in the way of fact surrounding the issue and the psome of the people themselves does not bode well with me
David,
If I believed in God I’d pray for people like you. I would suggest that unless you are as omniscient as God, you should avoid playing God with your breeding program. There is enough suffering and disease, we don’t need people like you creating more of it intentionally for ego gratification and a very twisted sense of aesthetics.
I will not abrogate my judgment of you and your kind simply because you find the heat of scrutiny uncomfortable, nor will I cede to some absent God judgement about the morality of what you do. There is no cosmic justice, only the justice of men. And as a living moral being, I feel with my heart and think with my mind that what you do is evil.
To remain silent, blindfolded, and apathetic to the injustice you are doing to these dogs would be reprehensible. So don’t wag your God in my face while you exact suffering on that which you claim to love. If I have harmed, it is only the egos of men capable of reason (albeit very little) and response. The harm you do is on to animals that have no recourse, no ability to regain that which you have taken from them, and without knowledge that they didn’t have to be this way and that it was you who caused their blindness, their deafness, their neurological problems, et al.
Look into your heart, Mr. Clarke, and think if God would be happy with you and if the ribbons you’ve won weigh more on the scales of justice than the harm you’ve caused.
Christopher recently posted..Get Along Little Dogies
Thank you Chris as a Christian you interpret my principles and values there as well. Kathy
David, what dog do you mean? I don’t claim that any dog in the article is known to be deaf. I don’t think I even used the word “deaf” or “hear” or anything at all. So please clarify what dog precisely you’re talking about and what precisely I said about that dog.
Since I only mention one double dilute in the article, I assume you’re talking about Avalance; if not, please clarify with the full registered name. If we are talking about Avalance, then yes, he is blind.
I will take it on authority of Mary Jackson of Riverrun Collies who used him. Seeing as Avalanche’s breeder denied that there was anything at all wrong with him, I will have to publish these e-mails, but here’s an advanced snippet:
Given the evidence of his complete lack of a show career for no apparent reason, plus the eye witness testimony of Mary Jackson, I’ll take it that you are in fact a liar.
Christopher recently posted..Wyoming Bound
Well, David, as a breeder I am well aware that when I breed a litter I am playing Goddess. I choose to be merciful, though, and not do breedings where each pup has a one in four chance of being defective, possibly so defective that I will have to exercise my godliness by taking their lives.
Collies are not a rare nor endangered breed. There is no compelling reason to do a merle x merle breeding. In fact, there is a compelling reason to not breed from a double merle: too many merles in the gene pool will limit mate choice, especially for those who choose NOT to do merle x merle breedings.
Merle x merle breedings are Old Testament, David. Even the Catholic church has had to change with the times; witch burnings and inquisitions would never fly nowadays. Dog breeding, especially breeding for show, is not the esoteric closed society it used to be, and now with the anti-breeding contingent breathing down the backs of our necks, if a breeding practice is harmful (produces defective puppies) we had bloody well better have a damned good reason for it. Producing dogs that will have exciting show careers is not, in the eye of the public, the public which places pressure on legislators to pass laws regulating the breeding of dogs, a good enough reason.
Jess recently posted..Afghans at a Show, 1920s
David where does your comprehension of the international issues facing all pure bred dogs come? This is not the old fashion witch hunts, or attack or lawsuits over who gave who PRA or lethal gray. No one is blaming anyone here including me. Genetics and molecular science has begun to end all those destructive battles to breeder and collie as well. Kathy
Get real you guys! Really – Exploiting subjects you really know nothing about and for what – making yourselves feel better and more important? Perhaps that is it. Blindness, deafness and neurlogical problems have never once ever cropped up in dogs I have bred over the past 20 years and why because I take the health and wellbeing of my dogs VERY seriously. How you ever read God, ego and me creating harm in my dogs into what I originally wrote is beyond me!
In painting all breeders with the same brush, I find this not just careless, but wreckless. You do not have your facts straight here, and perhaps you should make sure of that before wrailing off on things like some kind of whacko! –
If you have either professional credentials or years of breeding experience that I do not know of, please let me know. Maybe then I will take more time to debate things, but until then, I will just chalk this up to another interesting learning experience.
Ah, “magical thinking.”
We would had never gotten past Egyptian medicines and dove into the world of Thales if we valued personal anecdotes over science.
Dave recently posted..Dogs, Guns and Porn
You people are actually quite sick.
And your arguments are moronic.
You want more regulations?
Keep up this nonsense and come up with even stupider arguments.
Do you seriously think these eyeless dogs lost their eyes to infections?
Come on.
That doesn’t even pass the giggle test.
And Christopher does know about it. He has bred a litter that had a few single merles in it.
Retrieverman recently posted..A sagacious young retriever
http://www.border-wars.com/2010/02/the-mara-mystery.html
The experience argument is a canard.
People can be experienced at doing the wrong things and then also being experienced at coming up with stupid excuses for their behavior.
In dogs, this more true than in anything else I’ve yet experience.
Maybe politicians are worse.
I don’t think so, though.
Retrieverman recently posted..A sagacious young retriever
Hah! Painting all breeders with the same brush? I mention ONE dog and three kennels in this article. And the only implication for unnamed other breeders are those that breed Merle to Merle. That’s as specific as needed.
My only discussion of ALL breeders is in how this behavior by (a few?) (a minority?) Merle x Merle breeders has the potential to bring down legislation that will be intrusive to ALL breeders. I am an advocate for all breeders to not be hurt by the few. The legislative tyranny of the minority caused by a bad minority.
David, why are you trying to appeal to my credentials instead of the argument? Is that because I’ve caught you outright lying about the impairments of Avalanche? You can’t fight the facts so you’re trying to slander me with logical fallacy?
Let’s get very specific David. Are you claiming that you have special knowledge such that you can breed Merle to Merle with abandon and not produce a single double merle puppy that has any impairment? If this is what you are saying, I do believe that the scientists who study this issue and who have already published papers would be eager to talk with you.
Can you defy gravity as well? How about raise the dead? Transcend space and time? Are you the second coming? Are you the Kwisatz Haderach?
Oh David no one needs years of breeding exsperiance to see that a dog is blind for goodness sake & no one needs m ore than 1/2 a brain to realize it’s wrong to do a breeding of ANY breed that has any likelyhood of 25% of the litter needing to be culled or sold as pets due to being partly or fully blind is just plain wrong.
I do have years of exeperiance breeding a number of breeds plus horse & livestock & know it’s very possible to to breed healthy true to type off spring without severely inbreeding or taking chances with risky matings. Sure, sometimes it will take an extra generation or 2 to get your goals met but I would rather not sacrifice health for type & deff not for a color or pattern. Get your head out of the sand do some honest research & actually visit some kennels, ask the hard questions & you will see for yourself what the truth is really all about.
I have some closely bred dogs in my kennels & they all have issues, bad bites, low fertility, temperment issues & bad mothering to name a few. Sure some are great types & well above my not so inbred dogs on type alone but is it really worth all that just to breed little clones that will win in the show ring? NO it is not & my not so typey dogs are breeding more & more to type without the health issues it just takes longer to achieve the type I’m after so to me it seems close breeding is all about short cuts & how is that right?
“In painting all breeders with the same brush”
It’s clear Mr. Clark is reading a different blog, because Chris is only talking about breeders who breed MxM when they don’t have to (and repeatedly!), and then get lauded for their ‘amazing’ purposely-born deaf/blind dogs. If you can’t understand how anyone would possibly find that kind of behavior abhorrent, you’re completely divorced from reality.
Don’t be silly. You know it’s only those hick BYBs that produce messed up puppies.
Jess recently posted..Afghans at a Show, 1920s
This type of blog journalism is a classic example of link-baiting. Take a potentially polarizing subject that readers know little about, tell a relatively true story with a few twisted details, support it with evidence, and then bait the readership into emotional responses. This is how current no-name authors attempt to trick Google and other online news hubs into believing that their blogs are authoritative information sources, in order to obtain higher rankings, and thus grow their readership. Every response is a victory in the author’s crusade for notoriety.
A respectable author would do his research in an honest manner, write his article, and then let it stand (or fall) on its own merit. By this author continuing to post snippets of his research (factual or otherwise) and incite emotional responses is just another tactic to artificially inflate the activity on the blog and its prominence in social media.
Based upon the type of anger that seems to come through in this author’s writing, it is doubtful he is capable of any type of sympathy for the dogs he discusses. Instead, they are just the ammunition for his gun, and the fuel in his attempt to become a notorious writer. Really sad.
Well that is offensive. Thier are those of us who enjoy our freedom of speech.
The fracture fairy tales literature is hardly mentally stimulating. Kathy
Sure plays a mean pinball
Andy Ward recently posted..Landrace vs. Purebred Scotch Collies
Hahahah. Awesome reference.
http://youtu.be/ZxRrH70pViU
Christopher recently posted..Me Cowboy, You Cowdog
Too bad he probably doesn’t have dewclaws, might make it a bit difficult.
Jess recently posted..Thought This was Apropos
Well collies do have dewclaws and some even have doubles in the rear. I personally have never had such a specimen with double dewclaws. The smooth collie generally will have front dew claws removed to prevent injury when it is a working dog specifically. While there are show smooths that have them removed to improve the looks of the front legs without the rough’s frills?
Kathy
good grief…. Christopher… get a life !!!!
Thanks for your deep insight and convincing argument in favor of intentional double merle breeding, Matilda!
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CCAmembersCLOSED/message/14661
That group restricts viewing access to members only.
Yes, but isn’t it humorous reading their rules?!
It sounds like they have the this policy: Only people happy with our groupthink are allowed to join the club.
Christopher recently posted..The Collie and The Provost
No Yahoo Groups for you!
Retrieverman recently posted..The dog show lecture in Big Red
Chris: It is not nonsense to those who believe there are any progressive conversations regarding the health and welfare of the collie. I know once was on it as a member. Kathy
Yes Pai, and if you want a real sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach look at the Collie Club Foundation’s web site. The AWCA deals a bit with MDR1 this is the American Working Collie Association.
Now the new organization formed after the Montana situation Collie Rescue is likely the only group active in non political issues but the welfare of collies.
Oh we have the website of International White Collie club as well. You can read the history, as far as I know. I got tired checking on these sites if anyone out there was getting a wake up call. One chat site actually list as recommended Breeders.
I had to go to sites like Genova Coats to have any intelligent prepective of another mind that ask…..WHY? WHAT AND WHERE?
Kathy
I am owned by four collies. Familiar with the failure of education process within CCA and its Health Foundation organizations one can understand the lack of knowledge regarding this breeder’s inability to evolve from old breeding theories into scientific data fact.
Have been in collies for 50 yrs and in the last 15 have learned never to cross with a conformation Ch. Twice for dermatomyositis, twice for colobomas, after I had cleaned them out. I thought. When I started doing OFA’s and I always took all the pups in a litter for eye checkes I was deemed a health nut. About 2yrs ago started doing DNA’s, this after finding my 1st grey collie (cyclic neutropenia),traced back to another
CH. 5 generations back. congradulations it’s about time someone blew the lid on the whole mess. Monica
Yes, Monica and I was there for you with up to date information how to find the source. I provided first two webs of collie breeders for your confirmation of your worse fears.
When you call me back, I provided the Genetic and Molecular new technology resources for testing. Kathy
I know for a fact that Avalanche is not blind or deaf. I saw him run around a field at top speed and did not have any trouble coming when he heard us at the gate. Mary Jackson most likely never saw the dog in person. I have. Avalanche has a lot to offer the collie world and he was produced because his breeders know that the breeding of his parents would produce something very spectacular. They were right. All breedings are risks. Some double merles can see and can hear so to say that the breeding of merle to merle should never be done because it MIGHT produce deaf or blind dogs in just an ignorant opinion of people that really know nothing about breeding dogs and should not be breeding dogs of any kind. People that think breeding and showing dogs is irresponsible and cruel need to actually go to a top kennel and see how these show dogs are treated. My dogs eat better than I do!
It is not fair to judge breeders as evil because they produce double merles. I have an Avalanche daughter who can hear and see normally so he does produce normal puppies unlike what some misinformed people think.
Thank you Sharon Mayes of Hillcrest Collies in Pennsylvania. It’s good to know where you stand on the intentional breeding of merle to merle in pursuit of show ribbons: unqualified support! I’m sure the buying public will appreciate knowing that you support breeders who intentionally create blind and deaf dogs, you buy dogs from breeders who produce blind and deaf dogs, and you partner with breeders who breed blind and deaf dogs.
Do you breed merle to merle yourself? It’s clear you support the over-use of popular matador stud dogs such as Wyndlair Avalanche and Southland’s Bowen Island, so it appears that you chase fads and don’t question anything as long as it wins in the ring.
Chris: Just as I had problems with question number #7 in the quiz old terminology versus molecular and scientific evidence and identification of old breeding theory. Semi-lethal, double merle, incomplete dominant, white merle, color headed whites. Wow what a complete different application to color breeding patterns. My personal research had led me o the discovery ‘Somatic mutation of cells”. This was due to following research closely of Dr. Shiela Schmutz and Dr. Leigh Clark. This led me to the knowledge of how the brindle gene expression that clearly and scientifically can be found on update this January 2012 of Coat Color in Dogs on the brindle gene in collies.
The first dominant modifer of the merle gene was discovered and identified by Dr. Clark the harlequin gene.
This second modifer of phenotype expression of the recessive alleles of the A locus was disovered and identified the brindle gene.
However due to the complex nature seeminly a polygenetic expression has advanced greatly recently a marker for this mutation is yet to be completed. Kathy
Just because the dog is compensating for his disability, doesn’t mean he isn’t disabled. Dogs are amazing creatures, and they can compensate very well.
I’m too much of a libertarian to say that there ought to be a law, but by advertising the dog as a stud, Avalanche’s breeder opens herself up to others’ opinions – both good and bad.
All breedings are risks, but why increase the risk of producing a blind/deaf dog? His pups will be normal, but it really comes down to ethics. Is it ethical to create a disabled animal on purpose because he’ll produce nice progeny?
I say this as a person who has owned a blind dog, a double-merle dog (with normal vision, deaf in one ear), fostered many blind and blind/deaf dogs, and currently owns a blind cat. Animals adapt: my blind cat runs full speed around the house and catches mice. The blind dog earned her Draft Dog title and even the judge didn’t realize she was blind.
I’m a huge advocate for dogs with disabilities – often they can thrive in loving homes with only minimal special care. But, I don’t think they should be bred on purpose. Animals can’t make their own breeding choices, we owe it to them to make wise decisions.
So far, nobody knows why some MM dogs can see and hear, and some can’t. It might be more than luck, but until we know for sure that a breeding will or won’t, it’s safer (and more ethical) to err on the side of caution.
Jana now you are on the right page. Indeed they compensate. Guess we have all paid our dues for this club.
Indeed we know reasoning by the 4th dimension Quantum Leap once postulated by Albert Eistein. Today it is known as “string theroy’. Einstein saw a method through physics that there were other dimensions. Dimensions smaller than an atom.
Microbiology and genetics are just two fields of science that take us out of our three dimensional world so to speak into a 4th dimension to solve the complexity of human understanding.
Back to the pond and the Lily pad- The goldfish as you sit on the lily pad lives in a two dimensional world. He does not look up his environment consist of only what he sees with his eyes positioned on either side of his head. He is not aware of the third dimension and a monoster that breathes outside of water. Painfully, he becomes aware as you when pluck from its life sustaining air supply– water. He looks into your eyes as he gasps in his last breath. If you place him back quickly even a goldfish always seems to be aware of your presence thereafter. Kathy
Oh Jana I think we do know why some see and hear and some don’t again through our researchers such as Dr. Strain and Dr. Sharp’s continual studies. Right at your fingertips. Somatic Cell Mutation.. Our Great Danes and specifically Aussie friends of like minded folks have a wonderful breeder/lay language site as well.
There has been much human relationship research not only on the micropthalmia blindness with “merle ocular degenesis” also merle collie included under this search engine “key words”. You might like to also like the sites under “key words” Exonic SINE insertion causes……
Roping the Wind. Kathy Bittorf
Jana: You see I am not a liar just like our unbais journalist Chris that has given us the opportunity “not to bury the hatch with the handle sticking way out in my back”.
I should say my daughter and I took care of every one of those we had produced. Only one went completely blind. One got early on set PRA. The rest stayed with us. Two were placed with Doctors of the FDA and nothing ever went blind thereafter. Our bad choices to the best of our knowledge never enter anyone’s breeding program. Fortunaely, we never sold breeding or showing collies. So our responsiblilty to the breed ended just last year? We shared the lives of this wonderful collies, and still feel the lost of my Singing and Dancing collie Thor. Kathy
Please people no knee jerk reactions to witch hunts. The pedigree study my daughter burned the hours way passed midnight to discover this revelation for us ten years ago. When completed was so large it was put on tag board sheets and taped together.
You see people it was a breeding practice that could hide in pigmented specimens. We did do a merle to merle breeding once which was our wake up call. We never bred to any double dilute, or double merle that we were aware. We simply believed that both collies were from blue merle and tri breedings only. Its potential lethal nature expressions could travel so many generations as recessives of the autosomal chromsome section of the DNA chain. We had no idea and neither did science of that period that once was called the Junk Yard with broken and missing pieces of genes that could be pulled from this collection of missing pieces of recessives by a mobile or jumping gene SINE, and its insertion at the MITF just as SILV or PMEL 17 merle gene combined. Kathy
Yes, you did a merle to merle breeding and ended up with two white pups, which were euthanized when they turned out to be blind. That’s probably the fate of a lot of MM pups – Avalanche was one of the lucky ones.
I do sincerely wish that the AKC and breed clubs would have more educational opportunities in place so that breeders wouldn’t breed MxM, thinking that they’ll be exempt from the potential problems because they have nice dogs.
Well, seems I am being slandered as well on public forum if this is any help. Kathy
That is wonderful. A completely blind Shiba which I own could run at top-speed to and knew where everything was.
Oh, and a deaf dog we had figured out when people were coming without visual cues. Hurrah for subtle vibrations!
Use some common sense before employing anecdotes as a diagnosis.
Yet why do breed-clubs in Europe ban merle-to-merle breedings? They actually do cite scientific reasons on their website for why only merle-to-tricolour should be performed. Not to mention a few kennel clubs have already banned merle-to-merle breedings as well.
It is well-documented that such breeding have tremendous risk factors; and scientists know what is being interfered at a cellular level with to procure such defects. So to say that some double-merles are fine is blatantly ignoring the ones who are not fine.
I would like to say I was amazed when this blog was linked to & mentioned on an Australian Pure Breed forum that breeders responded with attidudes such as the answer I will copy & paste
& another said
Are they that blinded to what is really happening with all these high risk matings happening in many breeds today. They really belief inbreeding at this level is fine & that it’s OK to breed from blind & deaf dogs.
This is why I am now looking for another assocation to keep my pedigrees even if that means no showing as showing is not doing my breed or any other breeds I know of any favours these days anyway. I breed a fairly rare breed with very low numbers in Australia & due to being so fussy about inbreeding & pedigrees have only breed 1 litter in 10 years & am now planning my 2nd & maybe 3rd but you can bet I’m called a byb as I don’t want to register my litters with any assocations that are allowing all this. But so be it as I do know what IO know & can not pretend not too. Hybrid vigour dose exist & just because i believe that dose not mean I’m going to run out & cross bred my dogs but even if I did I can’t see that as being any where near as bad as a double merle breeding.
Sam,
I can’t say that I’m shocked. Australia in particular has an issue with widespread denial of the precarious genetic situation their dogs are in vis-a-vis genetic diversity and inbreeding. It’s a geographical fact that breeds developed outside of Australia have only a fraction of their gene pools that have been imported to the continent. This is a severe bottleneck for sure. Add to this the great cost and bureaucratic hurdles of importing dogs into Australia (they have had very strict import laws and outright bans historically), and you simply don’t get a robust number of dogs available to keep COIs low and genetic diversity high.
Even without active further close breeding, these “founder effects” are potent and real.
This sort of environment breeds denialists like those people on DOL forums and even well-educated biologists and breeders like Claire Wade in Tollers.
No one wants to stick their neck out when they see their peers doing the same thing.
Both of those comments are rather stupid. The first one is assuming some conspiratorial smear campaign on my part? I don’t breed Collies, these people are not my peers, my rivals, and I gain nothing from their particular shaming. I out them because I believe that what they are doing is evil, widespread, tolerated, and rewarded highly in showing circles and by the conformation culture.
I have outed double merle breeders of all stripes and these particular breeders happen to be at the very top of the game. When I outed other breeders, the comments were “but they’re just backyard breeders, reputable breeders don’t do this!” Not so. These Wyndlair folks have their hands all over two of the top producing studs in recent Collie history, there really isn’t anyone who has MORE reputation.
Also, this is not accidental and unwanted blindness and deafness. This isn’t a case of “well I know a blind person and they’re great!” Such comments are brainless. This is the intentional creation of a double merle stud dog when the risks are WELL known and well document, and ALL those risks have come to fruition here. Wyndlair Avalanche is a deeply disabled dog, losing some or all function in two of his senses, but you also have to realize the deep infertility (fetal mortality) that resulted from his breeding.
This is callous and unethical. And it’s been lauded and rewarded as much as any breeding is lauded and rewarded.
I could not agree with you more & the whole culture of show breeders wanting to say everyone who dose not show or voices an opinion that differs from them are byb just shows they are running scared in my eyes & can see the general public are finally getting a real idea about what goes into breeding their pretty & so called rare colored dog finally.
I once believed in the show ring & breeding for type & to the standerd but after seeing that type is out waying health, temperment & working ability time & time again in many show breeders kennels my eyes started to open to the real truth of the matter at hand.
Sure a breeds breed standerd is important consideration when breeding but imho it should never come before health, temperment & working ability. Breed standerds are open to an individuals inturpration also & some people see it in extreme ways & therefore we have GSD’s that look like retarded frogs & Bulldogs that are just a plain mess not even able to birth naturally.
I know many don’t even take me serously because of my poor grammer & spelling & therefore use it against me to say see she is not even intelligent enough to know who to write correctly but I just see that as a way to take the focus off the truths I am telling. Thats what these people do find ways to pull you apart to discredit what your saying as they are running scared & know the truth of whats being delievered into their whelping boxes. Thank goodnes for the types that are allowing the not so perfect pups see the light of day & go into pet homes for without even realizing it that are allowing the public to see what other breeders have hidden for years by heavily culling their litters from very early ages. They are outing their the breeders who came before them & yet are still too blind to see the whole truth.
Of course there are many byb breeders out to just make money & breed any old cross bred or pure breed but in my eyes there are just as many vile pure breeders who hide behind show wins & registrations. Feel free to correct my spelling & grammer, lol.
Sam, I agree with everything you said! What breed do you have?
Tibetan mastiffs are a very interesting breed.
It’s a shame that they are being milled in China as a status symbol.
They sell for unbelievable sums among the rising professional classes in China, and lots of unscrupulous breeders are selling them over there.
Retrieverman recently posted..The shockingly long life of the dog who played Hooch
Yep it is a damn shame idots are willing to pay 1/2 a million dollars for a cripple that imho is not even a good type yet my functional dogs are looked down upon by some. I really not sure where to go from here truth be told as I refuse to be a part of ANKC any more & there inconsistancies.
Sam… why do you think the attitudes of other breeders is a good reason for you to stop registering your dogs? That makes absolutely no sense and that does make you a BYB.
Why? Because ethical purebred dog breeders try to promote ethical breeding through setting an example. By putting no further effort into breeding other than putting two dogs of opposite sex together makes you no more than a BYB.
I have thought for a long time that someone should set up an ethical breeder registration society, that is not based on the fact that the dogs a ‘pedigreed purebreds’ but that ethical breeding practices are being followed and accurate breeding records are kept so that lineage can be traced and health issues avoided. Health testing would be compulsory as would desexing of all pets going to owners who are not registered breeder with the association.
Showing would still be an option, based on attractive AND functional animals who would need to be vet certified to be able to participate and certainly to be able to reproduce. Breeds would still exist, so would ‘types’ without a strict emphasis on strict “purebred” status. The pedigree, as it used to be, would once again be a record of lineage to provide breeders with the ability to trace the animals back and make intelligent choices for breeding.
I just wish I had the money to fund such a thing.
I have been a purebred dog breeder and exhibitor for many years and one of so very few ethical ones. All pets are desexed, full health testing is completed and I breed a type unlike any other in the ring… HEALTHY. And yet, I still win. Being persistent, outspoken and dedicated pays off… you can remain in the show world and have ethics. Please do not leave, that just displays weakness and ‘fashion’ breeders win. Work actively to change things, make an impact on the world!! I breed and show in Australia and I promoted health testing within our breed… few followed suit so I publicly shamed them and things changed. Health testing is now wide spread.
I have no respect for those who give up and fade away to let the others win!!
BYB is a meaningless term made to make haughty self-important breeders feel better than themselves. In fact, it’s a boogeyman: a made up creation so that you don’t have to confront the real evils in life, you can pretend that there is some malevolent force that is just pure evil and that as long as you’re one iota better than pure evil, you’re doing ok. It’s the invention of the devil where you cast yourself as the angels.
Spare us your name calling. Ethics are not determined by what registry you belong to or if you pay someone else to keep a record of dog sex for you. Ethics exist above such things and actually have little to do with them. It’s the difference between religion and morality. Religion is neither necessary nor sufficient to live a moral life. Neither is a registry.
I am not a hypocrite & I no longer beleive in the show ring so why should I stay a member of NSW Dogs or ANKC when they put show breeders above all else. I will not breed to suit fashion & I do believe pedigrees are terribley important so no dog would leave without 1 it just isn’t a registered pedigree until I can find a registry body I can be proud to be a part of.
By Dog NSW laws all my breeding dogs or undesexed dogs must be kenneled yet I hate locking dogs up all the time. Yes sure when a bitch is on heat I have kennels with runs & to contain dogs when I go to town but when I’m home & they are not on heat my dogs are allowed to be apart of our farm & family.
I don’t believe in over vaccionating either yet they want to tell me when & how that should be done also. I vaccionate but my breed has proven with titre tests that they have full immunity for years so why add more when it is not neccesary. I am against in breeding & think there needs to be better understanding of the long term issues for a breed when we are countinuely mating first cousins & closer much closer in some cases.
I am doing DNA samples & genetic testing on a very closely breed dog atm & the results are scarry to say the least & he was going to be breed if I did not take him on.
I am making my feelings count by not being a member anymore & so if that makes me a byb so be it although my by is a damned big by, lol.
Like I said… you don’t have to breed to fashion to register your dogs and show them!
Do as I am and be a trail blazer!
Try to make a difference!!! By not being a member you are making NO difference, you are just being lazy. When you leave, they aren’t going to take notice of you, you wont change anything by leaving… you and everyone else knows it!
Further more, there is no such rule about kenneling your dogs!! You can’t rubbish me mate, I live and breed dogs in Australia! My dogs are inside beloved family members, there is no such rule forcing anyone to kennel their dogs.
Whats more… I breed Tibetan Spaniels. And I know your breed and the breeders in this country well. “Fashion” has barely affected your breed here. While gene pool is small, if you want to make a difference import semen and do as I do… make free stud fees or puppies available on contract to those who will use the genes wisely to open up the genepool more!
If anything has changed due to fashion it is tibbies! Yet I show dogs with longer muzzles, smaller almond shaped eyes of the correct size and shape for health, shorter straighter backs, free movement, longer legs, big open clear nostrils… the list goes on. My dogs are VASTLY different from what others show in the ring… yet we win. Not every show, but enough that others begin to follow suit as WE set the trend of HEALTHY dogs. I am open and passionate about the health of dogs and about denying fashions. If you actually cared, you would be involved and jumping up and down with your healthy dogs screaming “look at me, look at me! I can win AND have healthy dogs, you can too!”
We don’t change the world by isolating ourselves!!
By throwing your hands in the air and claiming its all too hard you let your BREED down… and fade away into the other millions of back yard breeders who do nothing but breed their dogs for the sake of having puppies. You don’t have a breed appropriate for working in Australia, so for you that excuse is out the window.
Why am I bothering to reply to you at all? Because its people like you that take fantastic concepts such as this website and try to give yourself excuse and reason to be a BYB. I bet you charge a few thousand per puppy as well. If you aren’t vaccinating, health testing, showing, registering… then what is all that cash for??
I think we are both off base about the kenneling it’s actually VIC dogs who have made the care & maitence worded in such a way you would have to have kennels but Dogs NSW are headed in the same direction I feel.
http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/stories/PDFS/Part_14_Guide_for_Care__Mgmt.pdf
I know my breed touch wood so far has not been a victim to fashion but with more & more Asian pedigrees hitting our shores that may be set to change. They have been a victim of being sold to people that have no idea how to really care or train a TM though.
Who ever said I don’t vaccionate, mc or test, I can assure you my dogs have had more genetic testing than most. I also raise sheep just so my dogs have only the very best meat wise. I don’t make money from breeding as I have stated several times I run at a lose. For goodnes sake 1 litter of TM’s in 10 years hardly puts me in the money grabber stakes. I have several intact bitches & could produce at least 2 litters at year with my TM’s(given that they only cycle yearly) but I don’t. WHY????? I don’t breed to sell my TM’s at all I breed when I & close family & friends want a pup. On top of that I am fussy it toke me 8yrs to find the right bitch for my gold male & yet I still ended up with 3( 2 very mildly but 1 needed an op) pups affected by entropian so never breed him again even though they produced some exspetional pups temperment,type & size wise.
I don’t neccesarly believe showing is in my breeds best interest so even when I was a member had given up showing them long ago. I just don’t think it’s what a TM should be all about for me temperment, function & work ethic come well before type.
I applude you for not breeding to suit the fashion & respect your right to breed & show dogs as you see fit why can you not respect my views?
I ALWAYS take back any dog/pup I’ve breed no matter why they may need to come home or how long ago I sold them, I will even pay the transport. I don’t breed to profit or have my bitches endlesly whelping & my whole life revolves around my dogs. My dogs have a lifestyle better than most other dogs plus get regular trips to town to keep them well socialized. First & foremost they are our family pets, farm guardians & alround mates not a commodity that I show & breed from & then re home when I’m finished with them. My dogs have a home for life as dose any dog I have ever breed! I will even take back dogs that just past through for re training & re homing. I have been known to pay huge air fares to get them home too. I’m sick of picking up the pieces I have 3 TM’s that are rescues or older re homes, they all came to me in a complete mess of some sort. 1 I spent thousands on her mouth , muzzle & jaw repairing the damage she made trying to get out of a kennel block she had been banished too when they could not breed or show with her. Yet those scars don’t even run half as deep as the emotional ones she still suffers from at times although at least now she can be trusted not to attack all males she comes across. The other 2 had mange & the 2 yr old could not even walk on a lead. I spend hrs everyday rehabilating these dogs & thats something I can feel proud about where as trotting a dog around the show ring is not.
Sam, you can not say you are leaving the kennel club for altruistic reasons when in fact your reasons are completely selfish.
You make out as though the kennel club itself is responsible for your disillusion, when in fact they do not interfere with anyones breeding practices, merely keep records and demand a minimum standard of care (which from experience is rarely if ever enforced). If anything they should demand more of their members, including submitting all health tests to allow registration of progeny. By leaving you merely give more fodder to the fact you are choosing to be BYB.
I have worked in rescue for as long as I have been breeding dogs. Not just breed rescue, which has a limited experience set… but professionally and on volunteer basis within council pounds and the RSPCA. I was the RSPCA breed rep for many years until I became ill and have just now begun to get back on my feet. I have a very realistic knowledge of the overpopulation problem. Therefor I am on the side of reason, logic and reality. Our rescues are stocked with BYB dogs. Bull arabs, staffy crosses, maltese crosses and poodle crosses… and ‘farm bred’ dogs such as working border collies and cattle dogs.
Many people on both sides are blinded by myth, assumption, ignorance and lack of experience. We need people to stand up and take responsibility, not back away and then claim they are the more ethical. You do have a choice of course but I am afraid the choice you are making is to become a BYB… and I can not RESPECT that choice! It is good that you take in rescues but that is the bare minimum any responsible breeder should be doing! What health testing do you perform? In what ways are you active with breed preservation and planning genetic longevity? Do you desex all pet puppies to prevent contributing to rescue overpopulation? Do you provide a certain money back guarantee to ALL puppy buyers no matter what the circumstances (which is the ONLY way to ensure they come back to you and dont go through rescue)? Do you contribute to breed studies? Do you have ANY proof other than your word that your dogs are worthy of being bred?
I am outspoken about this, because I am so keen on finding like minded people who will take a stand with me to push for change! So many people sit back and complain… so few take action to make things happen! I am just one girl with a big mouth… who didn’t care about her ‘reputation’ within the breed club and spoke out about the lack of health testing in this country and ended up gaining respect from those who matter. I wouldn’t be heard in my own country so I spoke out on the internet and told the world what was going on. It worked, there was change, finally people started health testing. If by sticking my neck out like this I can make a difference, imagine what a bunch of us could do!!
Its not just purebreds, cross breed, breed in development and designer dog breeders alike could join in to demand more! Together we could create an organisation to register ethically bred dogs of all kinds regardless of breed… even crosses can be ‘pedigree’ with lineage recorded.
So very few people are truly ethical. It is a truly rare person who does not breed for entirely selfish reason… while there is always an element of achievement which is purely selfish… dedication to quality should always be priority.
Breeding pets for yourself and family and friends is purely selfish and one of the qualifying markers for BYB. A more ethical and realistic breeding program is started for a purpose that allows all dogs born a place in this world.
I breed these little dogs for numerous purposes. To keep the breed as it was, from extinction and to produce dogs who make exceptional assistance and service dogs… and versatile companion animals. I don’t breed to supply my fancy, my friends or myself. I breed because I truly believe in the survival of this breed as it should be… a small healthy dog who is versatile and adaptable. They make fantastic low allergy companions and can be taught very easily to carry out helpful functions for the elderly or disabled. Their low maintenance coat makes them ideal for this situation, as they can go 2-3 months without a bath, they require no clipping and they have a silky tangle free coat which sheds rarely but once or twice a year. Shedding is reduced even further in desexed dogs and all my pups are desexed before new homes.
I guess I am hoping there are like minded people out there reading this… that there are people dedicated to reducing the overpopulation, producing healthy dogs and maintaining quality. And that quality does not mean an inbred history or a winning fashion… but health, type, function and longevity.
I have worked in rescue on many levels for well over 15 yrs too & for 5 yrs toke many rotties & large breed dogs from western sydney pounds that needed re hab & re training for a certain rescue group. I am no fresh faced younster my decisions come frrom over 20 yrs of being involved with pedigree, working, cross breeds & rescue plus just being a genuinue farm girl.
How you can say my decision is selfish is beyond me as I do not gain in any way shape or form. It means my dogs are worth less in much of the publics eyes & brings me unwanted attention from people like you. I’m ashamed to say I stayed as long as I did because I knew it would win me no friends in much of the dog world when I voiced my true beliefs. I don’t believe in showing I think if anything it works against breeding healthy sound of body & mind dogs capable of serving a true working role & actually hinders being able to produce true companions & pets. I have no time for the type of person who thinks it’s Ok to show a bitch then get 3 litters out of her & re home her to me that is using a dog as a comodity.
I have come a hard long road in my own personal life but 1 thing has always been very meaningful to me is my dogs & my word to give them the best life possible. I want to be part of something I can be proud of & I’m sorry that is not Dogs NSW or ANKC. Yes at heart they are just a registry office BUT they put on the shows & allow extreme examples of many breeds to place very highly. That would not matter so much exsept those dogs then go on to have a huge impact on the breed as everyone wont to breed to the ‘champion’. To say they are here for the dogs but allow members to run virtual puppy mills is the height of bullshit like no other in my eyes.
To say I’m selfish to only breed mainly for myself is crazy to say the least. Selfish to who? Others can go & buy the same bloodlines from the breeders I bought from & start thier own line if they so wish. And if you mean selfish to my dogs, I ask how? You talk of over breeding flooding the market etc yet call someone like me who takes back any dog they breed, breeds when the need arises & not just to sell puppies & dose not breed a zillion litters selfish. You can not have it both ways. I don’t deal well with people, I do way better with animals & can get through to many hard cases others have given up on so I choose to fill my home with dogs in need which cuts back on how much I can breed also. It also means I don’t want to deal with hundreds of puppy buyers as that is not my strong suit. I’m also very fussy with where my dogs go so much so I have a 4mth poodle girl here atm that I have been offered 3 homes for so far but will not take as I feel she will most likely only end up back here down the track. Until I find the perfect home she stays with me & is that means forever so be it.
You must think calling me a byb will hurt my feelings but if anything I’d rather that than be called a show breeder.
I know my case is not the norm not many people do not have the land & means to support so many dogs & give them such freedom but I do & therefore I will continue doing it & we feel proud about what I do as long as the dogs stay my number 1 prority not ribbons, not how people think of me, not how much I sell a pup for but that my dogs live the best possible life & that i do as much as I can for other dogs also.
I think a large problem here is you don’t understand what the word “selfish” means.
You can not “be selfish to someone”. Please look up the meaning, you may then understand my post.
You report to have only bred one litter, however you have numerous breeds and just admitted to having bred recently… having a poodle you are having trouble rehoming. Having a lot of dogs does not make you a good person, I find often such people are overwhelmed and can not provide full care to all their animals. Especially if they have a number of dogs with high grooming needs, such as yourself.
While the majority of those that show dogs and even the dog show society themselves do not place a high enough priority on health and longevity (currently); the original idea and purpose of dog showing was an exceptional premise. To allow peer review of breeding achievements and practices. It was originally a great idea, but has been mutated into parading pretty non-functional things around a ring. A regimented show where health tested animals qualify to compete in not only conformation but in functionality tests would be highly advantageous and practical. Near essential in todays world!!
While you do not like people or their opinions, peer review has been our species most useful tool in advancement. Done the right way, to include health and functionality; such peer reviews would again see a swift advancement in the area of pedigreed dog health.
Quite frankly, if you can not associate well enough with people, you should not be breeding dogs. A breeder is required to keep in contact and monitor the progress of the dogs they have rehomed. But seeing as you do not understand the meaning of selfish, or breeding for selfish reasons, then I guess going any further with this topic would be pointless.
Just in case you might understand this… breeding dogs ethically requires an understanding and perception of things outside your own box.
Your actions can have lasting consequences for the dogs you produce; for the breed; for the families that take on your dogs; and for the community in which your dogs live. You do not need to produce multiple litters a year to have an impact, just one litter can have long lasting and potentially devastating consequences. Especially when the breed is as large and as notorious as the Tibetan Mastiff.
I am not trying to hurt your feelings… I had hoped that you might have an epiphany… and had you been the ethical breeder you claim to be then you would have understood, changed your mind and shown your dedication to your breed by promoting ethical breeding to other breeders. Instead you ignore my questions regarding health testing, desexing and ensuring the future of your breed and continue to complain about “show breeders”. It merely sounds like sour grapes because you couldn’t get away with being lazy and breeding your dogs without regard for the bigger picture.
I don’t believe current dog showing is essential… but I do believe registration is the very MINIMUM you should be doing! This at least shows you are not heavily inbreeding or making obviously poor breeding choices. Most clubs these days have banned inbreeding or multiple litters per year from the one bitch. They will not register such litters, is this why you have chosen to drop out from registry?
I said I only breed 1 TM litter in 10 yrs as if I was interested in breeding for profit that is the breed I would have breed considering they sell for a mim of $2000 even without papers & all my breeding dogs are papered so the pups could be registered & sold for between $3000 to 4500.
I have numerous breeds & always have, why because the magority of mine & my families dogs serve a purpose & no 1 breed can cover all the jobs. My breed is Tibetan Mastiffs, my parents have Maremmas(although only own 1 atm) & my partner loves his poodles no crime there. When I got my partner his first Poodle since his teens I spent a small fortune & research the breed & breeders & was dissapointed by what I found out. I admitt I did not understand the breed at the time(10yrs ago now) & was amazed when our toy poodle bitch showed true working qualities but was held back by being far to fine boned & had ear problems caused by all the hair that grows in Poodles & being a tad loopy. That started me on on a mission to breed myself some working poodles more in the Mini size range but with bone, a lot less ear hair & increase the work drive & decrease the yap. I have been very happy with my dogs & so has the people that now have many of them as certified therepy & diabetic dogs now. I don’t over breed them & thats why I can keep my little rusty red coloured bitch until the perfect home comes up as I have only ever had 3 returned(her being 1 of those 3)& if needed she will stay forever. She was pre sold to a family with a young teen but unfortunatly 2 wks after they got her the teen passed away & the pup was to much of a reminder for them to keep so I toke her straight back. She shows signs of being suitable to do therepy work so I have already booked & payed a deposit for her to go to boot camp if I still have here when she turns 6mths. Until then we will start her training here & IF the perfect placement comes up we will consider letting her go. You see it’s not about selling dogs all the time for me at all, of course there is sometimes pups available but it is not the reason I breed.
I am far from over whelmed you see I live on a large farm & my partner works on the farm & I’m blessed to have the means not to have to work. If at any time I felt I needed help I would hire someone to help me but find between myself(working full time with the animals), my partner, son & other family members we have heaps of time for all our animals.I know I am truely blessed to be able to raise our own & our dogs food, not have to work & have a wonderful property at my doorstep with creeks, dams, irragation & hundreds upon hundreds of acre of land for mine & my dogs to exsplore & enjoy which we do every single dusk & dawn. I’m also blessed that my step father & mum supports my decisions & also allows me to run our livestock in the manner I see fit & are happy to have us all together on the family farm even though I’m no spring chicken. Also lucky to have my own housing here too so that we are not all stuck in 1 house.
I don’t need registration to show I’m not inbreeding I only need to know how to study a pedigree which I have more exsperiance with than your average person considering my work with several stud cattle & sheep enterprises, establishing new livestock breeds & my work with breeding up of our Dorper herd. Along with close to 30yrs dog breeding exsperiance & study, which is an ongoing thing as I believe we should never stop seeking new knowledge & exsploring new ideas. I do keep pedigrees & I am in the process of setting an agreement with a very knowledgable person overseas who keeps TM pedigrees & genetic health testing results. I am DEAD against inbreeding & this is another reason why it toke me 8yrs to find a suitable partner for my TM male.
You see you have made the same mistake many people do by thinking just because I don’t do things the way you believe to be right I must fit into 1 of your ideals of a byb. When in actual fact I am an individual as are my dogs & I invite any body to come & visit them & see just how blessed my dogs are. Yoyr idea of ethical to me is being a hypocrite. To me an ethical breeder is someone who first & foremost would never breed more dogs than they are able to respondsibly take back as you just never know what going to happen in somebodies life where they may need help with their dog you breed no matter how well you vet your new homes. An ethical breeder dose not breed to suit a fashion & puts health, function & temperment well before type or colour. An etical breeder makes their own decisions on what is the right thing for their dogs & dose not just blindly follow suit so no one questions them.
I truely fail to see how you can have a problem with someone who openly says they have lost all faith in the regisrty body available to them so is looking into ulturnitive ways to keep their pedigrees. What is right for 1 person may not be right for another.
I refuse to keep this banter going any further because you are the ideal exsample of someone who’s thinking is so mind washed & narrow that you can not look outside the square your stuck in. Just because something is right for you dose not mean anyone who decides to do differently is wrong. As long as they are making an informed decision & are putting their dogs daily needs & lifestyle as a big priority & are not harming the breed by breeding dogs that are unsound of body & mind why should they not be an individual.
I think people like you should spend more time looking at your own breeding successes & failures before they go judging someone elses. I’m off to run my dogs & spend time with my poor unhomable puppy, LOL.
ROFL! You clearly can not read. Its almost like you are having a completely different conversation.
Did you miss the part where I mentioned emphasis on health testing, breeding for function, breeding for a PURPOSE and not for profit or selfish reason, keeping in contact with puppy buyers, giving a full money back guarantee, keeping open gene pools… and the many other things regarding actual ethical breeding I mentioned?
You are a very lazy and narrow minded person hiding behind others with actual well thought out ideas, you have not proven you are a responsible breeder in ANY of the rambling non-sense you put forward. I can understand you have a bit of difficulty with the written word, but that is no excuse for irresponsible breeding.
You still have not answered regarding health testing, desexing or even keeping in contact with puppy buyers. I think you have merely outed yourself further as an irresponsible breeder. Stop using others legitimate objections to hide your BYB practices.
“People like me” have actually studied genetics, animal husbandry and are working hard to change the current issues within the purebred dog community. “People like me” health test all breeding stock, desex all pet puppies, offer a money back guarantee without conditions and show dogs who do not conform to fashion and have fantastic healthy features to help sway fashion in the direction of health. “People like me” do not breed a litter because aunty patty wants a puppy; but because there are enough people on the waiting list who require a well bred dog. “People like me” breed and show to keep the others honest and keep the breed healthy.
What are you doing for your breed or for dogs in general? Nothing.
You are worse than a show breeder, at least show breeders have some aim in mind and are usually forced to health test.
How can you say I can’t read you keep saying about health testing, mc, vacc etc & I have told you several times I do.
My aim is to breed healthy dogs fit for their purpose with cthe temperment to do so.
Sorry I did not even read the rest of your comment because your too closed minded for my likings.
I say let there be individualaitywe don’t all need to be show breeders thank goodness now go find someone else who may actually even read your crap.
LOL You calling ME closed minded… interesting, that certainly brings to mind the charcoal pot calling the porcelain white kettle black. Im not closed minded, Im smart enough to see through your bullshit. You can deflect all you like, it is easy to see the truth.
You didn’t answer anything:
1. Which health testing you carry out on which breeds.
2. Whether you desex pet puppies.
3. Whether you give a money back guarantee.
I can bet the reason you don’t answer is because:
1. You don’t health test, you may have done something, once, at some point and therefor make the assertion that you do “health test” as a general statement. Because you don’t actually health test you don’t even know what health tests are required let alone what the process is, who to go to and how much they cost.
2. You don’t desex, in fact you probably don’t even know where all the puppies you have produced are right now.
3. You have already indicated you have kept/taken back dogs who have been fully paid for and not knowing where all your dogs are, I doubt you care as long as it never comes to your attention.
I could pick up the phone right now and find out the REAL reason you have been shunned, from local breeders and poodle & TM breeders alike. I know many breeders who register but do not show and they are not shunned at all. My mother is one of them and she is well known and loved within the community. Your arguments are not valid and it reeks of something else going on.
Individuality… how about responsibility!!! You are so ignorant and closed minded you believe I am sitting here telling you that you have to show your dogs? Or is this the angle you are trying at to pump up your image with the followers of this blog? I have already said showing is not necessary, but suggest by dropping out of registration and the dog community you prove nothing other than BYB status. No one gets to claim “individuality” when it is the LIVES of innocent animals you are taking into your own hands. Breeding animals is an enormous responsibility further than your own little bubble. That you can not even nearly grasp that concept is disappointing to say the least.
Individuality… no… you are just one of now millions who BYB their dogs because anything else is too much hard work. Good work at being another one of the masses, another one of the ignorant problem creators.
Desexing puppies is a vile, vile practice.
It is also detrimental to a breeding program. It has been shown over and over that there is no way to predict behavior patterns in 8 week old puppies.
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What makes you say it is a vile practice?
What IS vile, is the slaughter of THOUSANDS of irresponsibly bred dogs each year. The only way to reasonably control the numbers, is to desex all pet animals.
That is based upon the poor assumption that breeding is the major cause of dogs ending up in shelters. That’s simply not the case. I’d point you to _Redemption_ by Nathan Winograd for an excellent analysis why this is not the case and why further sterilization programs are unlikely to change the number of dogs in shelters.
http://www.border-wars.com/2009/04/killing-for-myth-3.html
http://www.border-wars.com/2008/12/garbage-in-garbage-out.html
But you can start with these.
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/TipsandInfo/~/media/Files/Publications/AnnualReports/RSPCA_AnnRep_2011_FINAL_low-res_spreads.ashx
Last year the RSPCA processed over 15,000 dogs. Just under 5500 were reclaimed, nearly 6000 were euthanised and only 3,500 were adopted. In the local council pound where I worked, nearly 400 dogs were euthanised per quarter. Not even half of the dogs picked up were reclaimed or sold on. The majority of dog ‘breeds’ coming in are designers and popular BYB breeds. Breeds such as American Staffy and English staffy and all their crosses; GSD; plus farm & hunting dogs such as border collies, kelpies, cattle dogs and “bull arabs”.
I have worked in the council pound, the RSPCA, local volunteer rescue and breed rescue. I have worked as a veterinary assistant and witnessed people having unwanted pets directly euthanised. I have also been a dog breeder for as long.
I have first hand experience.
It’s not my theory based on someone elses statistics and my rationalization based on the number of pups I sell… demand for my puppy product being high which I pass of as proof of no such overpopulation problem.
It comes from dealing directly with the people who are dumping, the people who are breeding and having to deal myself with the actual results… i.e. following the bosses orders to march up to 40 dogs per fortnight to their death because the pound can not keep up with incoming numbers.
While pet ownership is on the rise, so is the number of fashionable ‘breeds’ and crosses ending up in the shelters.
This typically occurs because Mr Average Joe feels he can be a breeder too. He thinks he can make a quick buck, it might be an accident or people compliment him on his dog so often he thought he should contribute his genes to this world. Either way, Mr Average Joe isn’t so good at screening pet people either and a bunch of his pups end up in the shelter… or their pups end up in the shelter (so on and so forth). The whole thing can be prevented from the beginning with Mr Average Joe only being able to buy a desexed pet. Should he then want to breed, he would need to make a careful and informed choice and be monitored and mentored by the breeder he buys from. A large portion of dogs are dumped because they are simply inappropriate for the needs/experience of the new owner. A lot of dogs being dumped/found/surrendered are between the ages of 4 months and 2 years. Puppy is no longer cute and becoming increasingly difficult to handle. Ironically, many of these people go out and purchase another dog nearly immediately. Older dogs are often passed off when a new dog is brought into the house. To say there is no problem merely because you are able to sell puppies is a gross misinterpretation of facts.
That people still to this day do not understand the chain of events that lead to animals being dumped is beyond me. Especially one who seems as well educated as yourself. Typically I find such people use this “but I sell heaps of puppies, therefor there is no overpopulation, there is only demand” rationalization to get out of having to desex their own pet progeny. Or perhaps it is to justify their continued breeding.
The reality is, people treat pets as disposable… and while more are being created and sent on to the wrong kind of people for the wrong reasons… shelters will continue to be flooded with animals.
There are dogs on the streets.
There are wild dog populations.
But they do not exist in large numbers due to animal control. Most dogs maintain a fairly close relationship with human populations, scavenging and begging for food. Canis lupus familiaris does not adapt overly well to a wild existence.
Still… in Australia many controversial dog baiting programs are undertaken continuously to keep wild dog populations down. Shooting in certain states and on farm land is also allowed.
The fact is… dogs are created, sold, used and discarded as though they were a disposable item.
Breeders may feel better about themselves by declaring there is no problem because there is still a market and demand for product!! That only shows the horrific extent to which this is an issue. And that the good majority of people have no intention of working towards a solution.
In many European countries, it is considered as unethical to alter a dog or bitch without medical reasons such as pyometra. In fact, it used to be that if a breeder was caught neutering or spaying their puppies, they would be banned from their retrorespective kennel club in the 1980s.
The consequences are not so heavy today, but it is still heavily frowned upon to alter any canine.
The whole double-speak about irresponsible “public Joe” reeks of Margaret Sanger, Alexander Gahram Bell and John Kellogg with their whacky theories based on misinterpreted data and assumptions.
Castration or removal of the ovaries in any mammalian has been shown to be linked with depression, lethargy, in some cases: hightened aggression, slow metabolism, wilder mood-swings, reduction in body-muscle mass, bone-density loss and, urinary incontinence. In individuals desexed before puberty, it also means they will be taller with little or no muscle tone. This does not just apply to dogs, but virtually all mammals.
If you truly believe arresting reproductive means is the answer, then it is far more humane to advocate for tubal ligation, vasectomy or essure. These are procedures that are easy to teach and to accomplish in canines. Desexing is outdated and cruel to do to any organism considering the alternatives and the side-effects researched made known today.
“The whole double-speak about irresponsible “public Joe” reeks of Margaret Sanger, Alexander Gahram Bell and John Kellogg with their whacky theories based on misinterpreted data and assumptions.”
ROFL! So now I am a racist for advocating the desexing of dogs? Interesting.
Well clearly I won’t be getting much logical discussion from anyone here. LOL
Thanks for the great laugh though 🙂 You brightened up an otherwise dull day.
Dave, such procedures are becoming more widely available but are not currently available to all areas of the world, simply through lack of experience. Desexing is preferable to a 6month old pregnant bitch. Or a bitch with pyometra and inexperienced owners who simply did not know any better.
I have seen a bitch die this way, the owners did not even know she was pregnant. If you think 6 month old pregnant bitches are unusual, try working in a busy veterinary practice.
Many human women have their ovaries and uterus removed. Ill effects are not significant and in some circumstances their removal is a significant improvement on quality of life.
Animals desexed early experience a delayed closing of the growth plates. The bones grow longer than they otherwise would. This can be an issue in large and active breeds of dogs, longer bones having a slightly increased chance of fracture during injury. Incontinence in bitches can occur in early desexing, but can also be as prevalent in bitches who whelp multiple litters or experience whelping issues. There is also a suspected increase in the chance of HD in breeds that are affected by the condition. Though of the dogs that were desexed early that did develop HD, it was of a much less severe degree than intact counterparts.
If you look at the studied percentage increases for all the things you mention, the increase is that of around 1%.
Further more, none of the possible implications of early desexing are fatal. However, reproductive cancers, pyometra and associated infection CAN be and often are fatal.
Do you believe it to be cruel, because all animals should be able to experience the wonder of reproduction?
I find anthropomorphism disturbing.
It would behoove you not to make an ass out of you and me by assuming. No where did I insinuate that you are racist.
I am only saying these historic movements failed because they never addressed the roots of the issue. Desexing is not the answer to the problems which result in what we see today: poverty, lack of education, lack of access to medicare.
Again you are anthropomorphising.
We are talking dogs here. What ever other disturbing visions you have you might be best to keep them to yourself.
Realist = most ironic name ever.
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No one is anthromorphizing anything. Did you even look at “Garbage In, Garbage Out”?
Only two of the top ten reasons for relinquishment has to do with dog population; and one of them did not specify why ie. retirement of working dogs. Virtually almost every point, except for the eleventh has to do with economic welfare.
Every single dog on the continent could be desexed, but it would not resolve the reasons why those dogs need to find new homes. So, my point remains valid. Desexing does not resolve the roots of the issue: poverty, inaccessible medicare, lack of education.
Crap. Two of the top eleven reasons.
My mistake. 🙂
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Don’t even bother Dave as she is so cemented in her little tiny square of belief & so called ethics & too scared to even peak outside the lines, LOL……
Why even hang here if your so unstimulated by the conversation causes believe me when I say your not telling any of us anything we have not heard a zillion times before.
Countinue on being a sheep & believing your not just because your wool is a different colour. Meanwhile many people here will go on seeking out real research & data to make informed individual decisions on what is best for us & our animals.
LOL Sam,
Don’t worry… I’m not sticking around 🙂 I completely opt out when people start heavily anthropomorphising.
Unsubscribing now. You have no chance of grasping the concept, indeed, you have no intention of learning or attempting to understand. Trying to gain the necessary experience to be able to make comment wouldn’t even occur to you.
My ideas are far from the norm, I am far from a sheep and your attempts at an insult are hilarious. Good luck with making excuses for your BYB practices 🙂
See thats where your very mistaken I don’t WANT or NEED to make excuses anymore I do what I know to be in MY dogs best interest. I don’t want to do the same old same old it’s time to take a different approach 7 I could respect yours but you could not respect my approach i mean really go & have a go at someone breeding sgenetic messes as you wont find them in my back yard.
Hi Realist. I have worked for the ASPCA and also volunteer for a breed rescue group. I know of the problems you speak of. I used to be for major desexing but it occurs to me, if the problem lies with people’s attitudes or problems be they underestimating care and costs involved, job loss, loss of interest, or honestly having things come up beyond their control like oh say, DEATH, then how does desexing really solve this?
You could have half the dogs available in the world, and stupid careless people will remain stupid careless people, and likely do the same things.
I have Tibetan Mastiffs & Poodles atm but have breed Border Collies(working although started with ANKC dogs)& my parents have Maremmas. I have also studied Tasmanian Smithfields closely. Used to be heavily involved with Rotties & other large breed rescue dogs doing retraining & foster.
You’re crazy, I know where the vast magority of the pups I have breed are & have already stated I take back any dog/pup I have breed if needs be. My details are kept on thier mc pappers too so if they ever ended up lost & found I will be notified also.
I will give money back if the pup is returned for a genetic health problem but have never had to as yet. I have swaped pups in the past for a litter mate when the personalities of pup & new owner did not gel though. I will not give money back when I am helping a family out because something happens in thier lives which dose not allow them to keep the pup/dog but have been known to pay the transport(air fare) to get the dog home. I don’t even sell my pups for as much as it costs me to raise them or cover assicated exspenses either. I turned back more puppy buyers than I sold too the last poodle litter I had as they are not a dog that suita all.
I have ALL breeding dogs hip n elbow xrayed & scored,Poodles have PDR tested & OFA evaluation, I am in the process of testing for vWD in all my dogs also. Many of my dogs have had MRI of thier brain too. My main TM bitch has a clear eye accessment from top eye specialis. I have also done other more random test on individual dogs. I have DNA profiles on every dog I know bar 2 which will be done very soon. WHY so much you ask because it’s a passion of mine & having many family members involved in the health & nursing departments we just find it all fasinating & think everyone should take advantage of all the testing you can do these days. Plus the cost is really not very much at all more many of the tests.
I do not reccommend early desexing & think it’s crazy to say you know what temperment & quality a dog is so young.
The reason I did not answer your questions is because I did not read all your dribble as it was putting me to sleep I have heard it all before too many times too count & generally from people with less exsperiance than myself.
Pick up your phone as far as I know I am not shunned LOL!!!! I just bought a new papered TM bitch recently. Poodle breders would not even know who I am most likely & the only TM breeders that would bitch are because i have picked up the pieces assicated with 1 of their TM’s. I don’t breed volume for gods sake.
Like I said come visit my dogs you will find well socailized healthy happy family pets & farm guardians.
I could state who I’ve worked for or worked with other the years but I’m just plain sick of you & your rudness now.
GOODBYE, take a friggin hike & maybe you should get your dogs out & about for some exercise whilst you are at it.
Do yourself a favour & stop being a judgementle fool accussing someone you don’t even know of goodness knows what you’ll accuse me of next it screams close minded fool in manies eyes.
We don’t all have to be a member of the registry you see to be the ONLY possible way to keep track of pedigrees. WHAT A FRIGGIN JOKE!! It’s people like you that helped make me take that final step & tell them all to shove it!!!
The risk of bone cancer increases significantly after desexing. It is far more cost-effective to desex after diagnosis reproductive cancers, which is astounding low of less than 5%– with only fatality of less than 1% of affected individuals, than it is to pursue treatments for fighting other kinds of cancer which could be prevented by keeping their hormone levels intact. Besides, spaying and neutering does not totally remove the risk of reproductive cancers– only reduce it significantly, in which the risk in itself is already extraordinary minute to begin with.
Rate of infections such as pyometra is correlated with autoimmune disorder and loss in MHC diversity. With healthy specimen, pyometra is rare– Swedish statistics show this.
Bitches suspected of being at risk of pyometra have their uteri removed on a case-by-case basis. Even then, the risk is only at their greatest after the bitch completely matured at two or three years, which argues against early desexing.
Making the claim we should desex dogs because people are under-educated about identifying symptoms is non-sequitor.
Oh, while throwing in the accusation of anthromorphizing, feel free to throw in some insults about being a euro-trash, a libitard, a pinko or whatever preferred insult of the day by North Americans and Australians alike. 🙂
Crap. My browser is messing up on the inline threading.
I should use blockquotes so people can follow the debate.
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Not this Aussy but then again I’m of Swed, scott born parents, lol.
I don’t desex myself unless nesscary these days, sure it’s a bloodly head ache when bitches are on heat but good pens & air plugs(lol) & your set.
I find the dogs do better this way. It amazes me that some idots can not have an entire animal without it getting in pup every heat, it really is not that hard.
I have a male that has been chemically castrated & will be done as soon as it wears off but he’s the exspetion to my rule as he was a rescue & hormounes was just adding to making it hard for me to get through to him.
You know both pyro cases I’ve had(over a 20yr period) where dogs that where not the healthest to start with. Tori the TM who had had quite the hard life before my friend got her & then gave her to me & 1 of my BC’s years ago who ended up having a whole host of genetic illness.
I love Scotch Collies, rough, smooth and old farm collie. Currently we have a tri-factored/white factored sable and white rough, he’s 10 months old and I love him!
If I was a collie breeder, I would breed for longevity, health and temperament. Those are the most important things to me. I could care less about my collie being a perfect model nor a champion. I want my dogs to live long, be free of avoidable genetic health problems and have a wonderful temperament. The last thing on my mind would be colour and being a pretty boy for the show ring.
In my opinion, it should be banned to encourage the breeding of a dog that will cause health problems (breeding for smaller eyes, Merle x Merle ect.). It disgusts me. I can understand preserving the breed, but some of the so called petty “faults” listed by the AKC and Collie Club of America encourages in-breeding, which in turn creates new health problems, reduced lifespan and behavior problems. The desire to get the perfect “Collie Expression”… I respect breeders who are responsible, but unethical ones such as Windlair’s practices do nothing but harm this wonderful breed which I love so much.
I am so disgusted by these breeders. I have taken in a double merle pup that was left to die on a dirt road because he was deaf and blind in one eye. How sad and numb are these breeders? Is how we look the most important thing in life? My double merle is a wonderful smart happy dog that i wouldnt ever trade for a “perfect” dog. Ever
Another breeder unconcerned with the cruelty of merle to merle breeding.
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