A sample of dog breeds with sine-qua-non disorders.
A sine qua non disorder is one that is both universal and definitional within a breed. To remove the genes that cause the trait, disorder, dysfunction, or disease would fundamentally alter the essence of the breed.
Any rational and humane breeder would want to remove disease from their breed if given the chance. No Border Collie is benefited by epilepsy or collie eye anomaly, and if we could wave a wand and rid them from the breed, it wouldn’t take much thought to do so.
Alas, there are dog breeds where dysfunction and disease are part of the breed standard or inextricably linked with traits that are required in the dogs. No matter how many DNA tests become available, such diseases will not be removed from the breed because the breeders want them there, require them there, and even cull puppies that are unaffected!
Such disorders are sine qua non to the identity of the breed. If they didn’t exist, the breed would not exist, certainly not as we know them. Unlike CEA or HD or epilepsy, removing a sine qua non disease requires breed standards to be rewritten, not genetic tests. The major obstacle is not genetic, it’s political.
A sample of such diseases and the breeds they are inextricably linked to:
Chondrodystrophy
Abnormal cartilage growth causing short legs:
Basset Hound, Beagle, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, Cocker Spaniels, Dachshund, Lhasa Apso, Pekingese, Pomeranian, Scottish Terrier
Dermoid Sinus
A neural tube defect inextricable from the “ridge:”
Rhodesian Ridgeback, Thai Ridgeback
Micromelic Achondroplasia
Abnormal cartilage growth causing short legs and trunk:
Bulldog, Corgi, some Jack Russell Terriers, Pekingese, miniature Poodle, Shar Pei, Shih Tzu, Skye Terrier, Swedish Vallhund
Polydactyly
Extra digits on the foot:
Beauceron, Briard, Great Pyrenees, Norwegian Lundehund
Pituitary (Ateliotic) Dwarfism
Boston Terrier, Chihuahua, Miniature Dachshund, Italian Greyhound, Maltese, Minature Pinscher, Minature Spaniel, Pekingese, Pomeranian, Pug, Shih Tzu, Toy Poodle, Yorkshire Terrier
Congenital Alopecia
Inherited baldness:
American Hairless Terrier, Chinese Crested Dog, Inca Orchid Hairless Dog, Mexican Hairless Dog, Peruvian Inca Orchid
Color Mutant Alopecia
Hair loss and breakage seen in “Blue” and “Fawn” coat colored dogs:
Blue Lacys
Brachycephalic Achondroplasia
Boston Terrier, Boxer, Brussels Griffon, Bulldog, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Japanese Chin, Pekingese, Pug, Shih Tzu, Yorkshire Terrier
Periodic Fever Syndrome
Fever, swelling, and Amyloidosis inextricable from the skin folds:
Shar Pei
Congenital Anurousity
Lacking a tail; associated defects of the spine and anus.
(Non-C189G mutation) Boston Terrier, English Bulldog, Miniature Schnauzer;
(C189G mutation) Australian Shepherd, Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog, Braque du Bourbonnais, Brittany Spaniel, Croatian Sheepdog, Mudi, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Pyrenean Shepherd, Braque Francais, Schipperke, Spanish Water Dog, Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Obviously the severity of these disorders ranges from very minor and unlikely to cause inconvenience in the case of a Beauceron’s extra dewclaws to chronic and potentially lethal conditions like Shar Pei Fever.
Such conditions provoke Qualzucht considerations as there’s precious little other than aesthetic fads to weigh against the potential suffering of the animal. You’ll notice that many of the disorders here mirror those that are enumerated in Qualzucht laws.
For individual analysis of some of these conditions, refer to the “sine qua non disease” category under “health and genetics.”
Beyond the physical, we might also include inbred mental disorders that are definitional of breeds. Ojeriza in the Fila Brasiliero maps to the human mental disorder Xenophobia. Border Collie eye would be considered an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder if a human displayed the same traits.
If you can think of another disorder that is quintessential to a breed’s definition that I have neglected to include, please leave a comment and I’ll be sure to update the list.
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
Not only Obsessive-Compulsive, schizophrenic as well.
Dave recently posted..What a Piebald Is Not
One could also make the case for nervous pointers since the qualzucht laws don’t really define what is an excessive behaviour.
Dave recently posted..What a Piebald Is Not
I means… most dogs will point for a few seconds or stand when they see a prey; but if you want a dog to hold a point for five minutes without training, one gotta be selecting for something.
Dave recently posted..What a Piebald Is Not
Interesting study, especially the part about how their rehabilitation program showed excellent results in the presence of the stimuli, but was not as successful in easing the dog’s stress outside of that.
This speaks to the issue of breeding in obsessive behaviors that can be managed in context of the “work” but leave the dogs at a disadvantage outside of the work.
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There are a lot of studies involving those nervous Pointers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=nervous%20pointer%20dogs
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After seeing pressure vests to reduce agitation in anxiety prone dogs, my first thought was “Are we breeding autistic dogs?” since those pressure vests are used to reduce agitation in autistic children who have problems dealing with sensory issues, usually sensory overload.
These vests are supposed to help calm dogs who have bad reactions to thunderstorms and other environmental issues. Since the latest study shows a VERY strong link between genetics and autism in humans (1 in 9 occurrence in siblings), it stands to reason that what they are breeding dogs for walks a tightrope between functional hypersensitivity and dysfunctional hypersensitivity.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that border collies can be hyper sensitive to lights, sounds, and movement.
A trait being closely linked to a gene associated with Schizophrenia does not mean that the dog has a defect in that same gene. Even if it does have a defect in the same gene, Schizophrenia is a multifactorial disease involving a number of genes and environmental factors.
Finally, I personally find it very unlikely that a dog could experience ‘Schizophrenia’ in any meaningful way. The condition is charactarised by psychotic experiences; a dissonance between what the patient experiences and what is perceived by ‘normal’ people. It is most often expressed by hearing ‘voices’ and by suffering from delusions, which surely require both language skills and sophisticated self-awareness.
I suppose one could try a clinical trial giving antipsychotics to dogs with this ‘gene’ but I don’t think the results would be meaningful , as changes in the dogs behaviour could be due to side effects rather than than elimination of presumed psychotic symptoms.
I agree that abnormalities in a gene known to be associated with mental illness in humans might cause mental instability in dogs, but I think the differences between dogs’ brains and human brains are too profound to equate the actual illnesses. I am happy to be corrected on by any neurologists on here, though 🙂
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Well, yes, C18orf1 gene is subjective and it has many things associated with it– some positive, some negative.
However one can easily say the same thing about polydactyly or dwarfism. In some breeds, it’ s actually harmful to have a double dewclaws due to loose ligiments. In some breed, dwarfism is fine if height:length ratio is of reasonable proportion of the respective weight.
In that regard, would a Border Collie still be a Border Collie if they don’t have the linked genes associated with C18orf1? Or would it be more like one of the other herding breeds that look similar with a different temperament and working style.
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Single-Nucleotide-Polymorphism-Based Association Mapping of Dog Stereotypes
Paul Jones*, Kevin Chase, Alan Martin*, Pluis Davern, Elaine A. Ostrander and Karl G. Lark,1
Dave recently posted..Whatcha Thinkin’ About?
I need to speak about the assertion that in Rhodesian ridgebacks, the neural tube defect dermoid sinus is “inextricable from the ridge”. This is simply not true. Dermoid sinus can occur not only in ridgeless ridgebacks (in the US, the breed has an approximate 10% ridgeless rate, which varies somewhat in different countries), which by definition carry NO genes for the ridge, but it can also occur in other breeds that do not normally have ridges as well. Several “non-ridged” breeds are listed on the Qualzucht post as having the potential for dermoid sinus, including boxers, Shih tzu, Kerry blue terriers, and Yorkshire terriers. Since dermoids can occur in ridgeless animals, it cannot be “inextricable from the ridge”. Is it somewhat more likely in ridgebacks in general, and specifically those dogs with two copies of the ridge gene? Yes, with an emphasis on “somewhat”, because many litters of fully ridged puppies are born every year with no dermoids at all. Ridgeback breeders have been diligent and successful in greatly reducing the incidence of dermoid sinus. As recently as 30 years ago, litters might have 50% dermoid puppies. Now the incidence is somewhere around 2.5 % in the US, and slightly more overseas. Nobody breeds for dermoids. But as another commenter noted, if a breeder is around long enough, something will pop up, even if you’ve been selecting specifically against that trait. Years ago, dermoid puppies were euthanized, but now they can be successfully operated on and live a perfectly normal life as a pet (desexed, and not contributing to the gene pool). It is misleading to imply that the presence of a ridge means the dog has a potentially life-threatening disorder. This is absolutely not true.
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n11/abs/ng.2007.4.html
If I may add this reference where I attempt to steer a path throughout what is and isn’t known about the link between the ridge and dermoid sinus.
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/ridge-too-far.html
Ridgeback Girl, if you have data to support the 2.5% rate of DS in US RRs, I will amend. The data on the RRCUS website (admittedly old) puts it at 4.8%. I note the RRCUS has also neglected to include the Nature Genetics paper on its website.
Also, as far as I know, there is nothing other than anecdotal evidence than ridgeless ridgebacks suffer from dermoids at any greater frequency than they are (occasionally) found in other breeds where they are attributed to a stochastic event – ie to a one-off developmental disorder, not something that’s genetic/inherited. Indeed, comprehensive litter records of thousands of dogs in Germany where newborn litters are checked and recorded by independent experts, has so far failed to turn up a single ridgeless dog with a dermoid. This could be unique to Germany, of course – and it might be that now more ridgeless dogs get to survive, more ridgeless with DS are found. It’s also undoubtedly true that more research is needed to elucidate the whole ridge/DS story. But until such time, to deny the link is disingenuous.
Hi Jemima,
I personally knew of a puppy whose mother was part ridgeback (Thai, I think). The mother dog didn’t look ridgeback, but had one whorl on the neck.
The puppy’s father had no ridgeback of any kind, his ancestry was known and had no ridgeback bloodlines.
But some of the puppies had full or partial ridges long the spine. The puppy I knew had longer hair and the ridge stood up like a mohawk hair cut, from withers to hips, all along the spine.
When the puppy was mostly grown, it developed lumps along the spine of the neck (WHERE THERE WAS NO RIDGE!). Surprisingly, the vet said that these lumps were due to the ridgeback gene. Why the problem appeared where the ridge wasn’t, instead of under that long ridgeback, I don’t know, but it did.
My best guess is that this was, yet another, case of variation of expression between 2 co-dominant genes.
You see this same co-dominance over and over. When a person, or dog, has 2 different alleles at the same locus, they are often BOTH expressed, but to varying degrees.
For example: the merle gene. It is possible for a puppy to appear to be a totally black dog with Irish white markings yet have a “dominant” merle gene. Why?
Because the single Merle gene is really co-dominant. But with variation of expression of the gene: it isn’t always 50/50.
Think of calico cats, where some skin cells have the orange gene and grow orange fur, some skin cells have the black gene and grow black fur. (Albino like white washes out both).
So in merle carrying breeds: true mm black is black, black with double MM merle is mostly white often with blue eyes, but Mm single merle is a patchwork of black and grey (often with Irish White Piebald genes at a different locus)..
Clearly, the books and authorities are wrong. Merle isn’t dominant, it is co-dominant. This is true of blood cell types too, or we might of all died out from lack of variety in our immune system.
But it isn’t quite that easy. “M” and “m” are co-dominant but to varing degrees. One Mm puppy might be mostly black, but another Mm puppy might be mostly grey, while most of the Mm puppies are about half & half.
It is more common to find a black dog with just a tiny patch of merle, than a grey dog with just a tiny patch of black, so the Merle gene is the less dominant of the pair.
This variation of expression between 2 co-dominant genes is very common. Dominant Hairless is another case of this. Two H genes are lethal after conception but before birth. Two recessive normal hh genes codes for most every dog in the world except the dominant hairless dogs.
But it is the Hh puppies which are desired. One problem (besides the teeth), the H gene isn’t truely dominant and most puppies have some hair. This can range from a baldy with 3 hairs total on the whole dog, to a dog so covered with hair that the only way you know it has the hairless gene is to look inside the mouth at the teeth.
This is probably true of the ridgeback gene too. Some puppies might have so little expression of the ridgeback gene that the dog appears normal, but under the skin, the problems might manifest, making lumps or openings.
So, a Rhodesian Ridgeback who APPEARS to be without the hairless gene could still suffer from that gene, and produce puppies with a full ridge, whether bred to another ridgeback or if bred to a beagle.
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Hi Paddyannie: The mutation as I understand in Ridgebacks is an autosomal recessive.Definition
Autosomal recessive traits are characteristics resulting when two heterozygous parents (parents possessing ONE defective gene each) are bred, resulting in an offspring that is homozygous (possesses a matched pair of defective genes.) In this case, the parents would be phenotypically normal, meaning not exhibiting the defect.
When it comes to the merle gene Incomplete dominance is a form of intermediate inheritance in which one allele for a specific trait is not completely dominant over the other allele. This results in a third phenotype in which the expressed physical trait is a combination of the dominant and recessive phenotypes.
Incomplete dominance is similar to, but different from co-dominance. In co-dominance, an additional phenotype is produced, however both alleles are expressed completely. Co-dominance is exemplified in is exemplified in AB blood type inheritance
Co -dominance in phenotype might be explained such as the dominant modifier of the merle gene Harlequin. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/harlequin.html
I found the 7 genes that control all Cat colors felt you might find how similar they are to dog pigmentation genes and patterns.
http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/cat-genes-science-fur-color
What I find interesting your mention of the Calico Cat. It is my understanding A calico cat is a tortoiseshell expressing an additional genetic condition known as piebald (white factoring or white spotting) This apparently is the modifier that creates the pigmentation pattern of Calico Cats.
. A piebald animal (white spotting) has patches of white (i.e., unpigmented) skin. This is controlled by a completely separate autosomal locus of complex pigmentation but question the autosomal locus with exception that piebald or white spotting is considered not sex-linked inheritance. . http://www.biologycorner.com/worksheets/genetics_calico.html
To be fair, this article is not implying the disorders are life-threatening. The list is focused on the definition of a breed.
Would a Rhodesian Ridgeback be a Ridgeback without the ridges? The ridge-less reminds people of a Great Dane crossed with a Pitbull.
Would a Fila Brasiliero be a Fila without the xenophobic aggression? They might as well be a Portuguese type of a Bullmastiff.
Would a Swedish Vallhund be a Vallhund without the short trunks? Technically they would be Buhunds with a wild-type agouti coat.
Would a Great Pyrennes be a Pyrennes without the double-dewclaws, or would they be considered as a French locale of a Kuvasz or a Cane da pastore Maremmano-Abruzzes?
I would hardly call three of the above breeds unhealthy; one is a serious legal liability in the wrong hands in the wrong districts, and the other two have counterparts which are seriously deficient because of the extremes in definition: Basset Hounds and Lundehunds.
Mind you, breeding away from the disorders doesn’t necessarily means the destruction of the breed. It just means it won’t be the highlight of the breed.
The Ovtcharkas used to be xenophobic under the old Russian kennels. Now it’s difficult to find one of the old type; so you won’t find many that are genetically disposed to hate humans– and if they are, it is usually because of how they are raised.
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Dermoid sinus IS life threatening, and it’s not a benign painless condition. It’s also very expensive to treat.
Sure, it’s a variable expression condition and there are no guarantees, but both dermoid sinus and the ridge itself are neural tube defects caused by the same genes.
The Rhodesian Ridgeback is a breed defined by fetishizing a defect for aesthetic and novelty purposes. The Ridge serves no function, it has no value other than being a rare defect.
So we have to weight the novelty against the disease. The fact that Ridgeless puppies are culled, the ones that are perfectly healthy and don’t have a predisposition to neural tube defect and extant midline dermal defect, really says it all. This is a breed based on a novel disorder and that disorder is more important than function and health.
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The ridge was initially present in the indigenous African dogs used to create the breed. The hunters of the time noted that the ridged dogs were more likely to come home after a hunt, so began breeding to conserve the ridge, amongst other traits. While there is still debate within the ridgeback ranks as to whether a Rhodesian Ridgeback without a ridge still qualifies as belonging to the breed, almost no breeders cull (euthanize) ridgeless puppies any more. They are petted out, as are puppies with surgically removed dermoids. We understand the genetics behind the ridge, but the genetics behind dermoids is not as well understood. The ridge itself is a mutation in the hair coat, NOT a neural tube defect. A dermoid sinus IS a neural tube defect, and can be likened to a pilonidal cyst in humans. The ridge is NOT a mild form of spina bifida – it’s a cosmetic anomaly of the hair coat. The Hilbertz research used an insufficiently small sample size (12 dogs) to conclude a definitive causative relationship between homozygous ridged dogs and dermoids. This was premature, and was discussed at the 2008 Rhodesian Ridgeback World Congress in Ireland. See papers by Dr. Clayton Heathcock, an established ridgeback breeder and Chief Scientist of QB3 Berkeley, The California Institute for Quantitative Biosciences.
http://camelotrr.com/2nd_ridge_article.pdf and
http://camelotrr.com/research/RidgeGene.pdf
Dogs homozygous for the ridge do have a higher chance of having a dermoid, but analysis based on a much larger sample size (in Dr. Heathcock’s papers) indicate that approximately 88% of homozygous ridged dogs do NOT have dermoids. Heterozygous ridged dogs are even less likely to have dermoids than homozygous ridged dogs. Ridgeless dogs with dermoids are rare, but they do happen, which was not reflected in the Hilbertz research. We would love to know the genetics behind dermoids, but the research hasn’t shown it yet.
The percentage of homozygous Ridgebacks clear of dermoids is not unlike the statistics behind semi-lethal NBT in Australian Shepherds. Interesting.
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Forgot to quote:
Dave recently posted..Whatcha Thinkin’ About?
From what I understand from reading about the Ridgebacks, the correlation was justified based on the fact the SNP affecting the ridges are both present in Rhodesians and Thais. However the two dogs don’t even share the same mtDNA, let alone the same geographical location. When one compound the Darwinian speculation the detrimental effect of dermoid sinus would had been bred out by natural selection in the naturally-breeding aboriginal population of the Thais and Phu Qouc Dogs, it is difficult to rule out linked genes.
Dave recently posted..Whatcha Thinkin’ About?
Yes, the Ridge alone is not a neural tube defect. Both Dermoid Sinus and the Ridge are midline congential defects. There are many defects in this family of disorders: spina bifida, short/screw/stumpy tails, spiral dysraphism, cleft palate, hair lip, etc.
What is true is that the very same mechanism that causes the malformation of the dermis can cause a malformation deeper that creates the dermoid cysts. It’s the same area of the body, the same genes cause both, this is obvious.
Here’s another study:
http://pub.epsilon.slu.se/1669/1/Salmon_Hillbertz.pdf
This seems perfectly clear to me. The Dermoid Sinus is inextricable from the Ridge, they are caused by the same mechanism, the same genes. Obviously not ever dog with a Ridge will get a cyst, and not every cyst will be painful and require intervention, no one has suggest that this is a guarantee. What is clear is that there’s no ability to have the Ridge and avoid the Dermoid Sinus.
Maybe the next RR Congress should have a Heathcock v Hillbertz showdown!
And I have zero proof of this but just mulling things over, does it occur to anyone that a big well known breeder of ridgebacks, invited to a Congress to speak, with a nice lunch and a captive, salivating devoted audience, might, just MIGHT tweak a study to the satisfaction of the listeners, giving them what they want to hear?
Being a big fish in a small pond carries an ego charge that’s hard for a lot of people to ignore. We all need to feel special after all, don’t we?
Who WOULD want to be the scientist who, knowing how all these people define their marvelous animals based on apparently nothing more than a backwards hairline ( despite all their other ways of being amazing dogs), sank hearts and blew the air out of everybody’s tires by saying “Sorry guys, but the very definition of our breed is the support of a genetic defect that is related to some potential health risks, not possible to eliminate w/o either breeding ridgeless back in OR else limiting the gene pool in other ways that may some day have consequences we have yet to see.”
No, I would not want to be that person, I guess.
With all due respect, the idea that ridged dogs were more likely to come home after the hunt sounds like a romantic notion. WHere is any proof that the DNA behind ridging has such a behavioral link?
I volunteer for RR rescue and I cannot tell you how sick I get of breeders showing off perfect ridges, often to exclusion of all other aspects of their dogs in a given conversation, including health and temperament. The very idea that the healthy but ridgeless dogs were ever culled because they were “not ridgebacks” always made me sick.
There is another name for the RR. “African Lion Hound.” Why? Because they were used for lion hunts, among other things. So what if folks had stuck to THAT name all along? I guess then it wouldn’t matter if the rigde was present or not because it wouldn’t be a ridgeback anymore. It would be an African Lion Hound!
Now, would that dog also no longer be an ALH because people don’t really hunt lions in most places with them anymore? If so I guess we have to start legalizing dog pit fights again for purebred American Pit Bull Terriers to be “real” APBTs.
Honestly, there are times when folks are far too caught up in the wrong things. The RR is a fantastic dog that can be well recognized even w/o the ridge, by the people that know and love that breed. It takes an eye to pick out breeds anyway, does it not? I picked out a black and tan working kelpie at a dog show years ago whereas most folks would have figured it to be a shepherd/dobie mix ( I always get that when people see my own kelpie and ask what he is). The fact that my own dog morphologically resembles a mongrel to the untrained eye does not diminsh traits and bloodlines that make him what he is.
I would think that DNA / gene splicing would solve some of the desired characteristics/ health issues if people REALLY wanted it. Bears (distantly related to dogs) have no tails, and obviously don’t have an issue with it. Raccoon dogs are short legged as are bush dogs. You could get the “merle” equivalent if you could find the gene that causes the color of the Painted dog / African wild dog. You could substitute the mane of the maned wolf for the “ridge” in Ridgebacks. I don’t know about polydactyly, but certainly there is no fundamental reason for 4 digits as opposed to 3 or 6 from an evolutionary standpoint. Pandas have an extra “thumb” -again, distantly related to dogs as a specialized bear. “flat faces” can be found in a number of mammals. It depends, of course, on how “plastic” the canine genome is, and how much DNA gene splicing can influence it. I would expect that the “designer dog” will someday mean more than unusual combination of purebreds — instead referring to dog + specified genetic alteration. If one could do this and maintain health, I would anticipate it replacing the older method of alteration while ignoring health impacts.
Peggy Richter.
I can’t wait for gene therapies to become commercially available. They will do wonders to undo the harm we’ve done to our dog breeds. There are many rare breeds that can really only be saved by gene therapies or huge outcross operations (which the pureblood brigade probably has no stomach for).
Even though outcrossing would probably be cheaper and easier. Too bad.
going a bit more general here but I personally I think dog breeds and dog breeding as a whole needs to be abolished, save for the few breeds that actually perfrom ajob, such as border collies or working german shepherds/ malinois, and then that those breeds be completely evoted to health and longevity rather than looks at all. All dog breeding has done is produce an army of mutants from the subject of this particular thread, dermoid sinus, to hip dysplasia that affects every dog breed today. All one needs to do is look at the dog’s progenitor to know we have commited grave sins on these animals. how can an animal such as the wolf, who ealily can reach 100 plus lbs and stand over 27 inches at the shoulder not suffer and structural defects that plague dogs that only weigh in at 60 lbs? we need to stop playing god and just leave these animals alone. if hier was a proposal made tomarrow to aboish the ukc and pure-bred dog breeding I would be first in line to show my support.
I don’t think any more laws are really what’s necessary here, certainly not abolishing dog breeding and the like. Government rarely has the ability to successfully manage something like this. I don’t think that would be very productive. All these issues could be taken care of with breed clubs growing up and passing ethics rules themselves. Plenty of the issues in these breeds do not exist in other breeds or in the same breed in different countries due to something as simple as changing a breed standard. Sure, some of these breeds would likely disappear because the disease is just too precious to the people who are in the breed to ever give up. Should some country ever actually pass a law against such things as brachycephaly, those breeds would likely become extinct versus the hard core fancy coming to their senses.
Genius!
If you want a pet, GET A CAT!
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“going a bit more general here but I personally I think dog breeds and dog breeding as a whole needs to be abolished, save for the few breeds that actually perfrom ajob, such as border collies or working german shepherds/ malinois, and then that those breeds be completely evoted to health and longevity rather than looks at all.”
What’s that? What’s that you say? You live in an apartment and want a small breed, low activity dog for a pet? Oh, no. Breeding dogs like that was outlawed a long time ago. You may only choose from these dogs, which are all we have available: a large, active lab mix, or a slightly smaller active bully mix. That’s pretty much all we get any more. What’d’you mean, you don’t want a big dog? You’ve alway had little dogs as pets, and your last one died a few months ago? Yeah, well, I’m very sorry, but you might as well stop your complaining, because the only dogs allowed to be bred on purpose are border collies and police and military dogs. Yep, you heard me right.
Unintended consequences? Tell me about it.
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persoanlly I would be fully in support of outlawing the breeding of brachycephalic dogs or any type of dogs with extreme physical abnormalities. I mean for gods sake, when you look at the wolf and see how far we’ve mishapen it how can we as caring and civilized creatures feel ok with creating these deformed mutants. Basically I believe that if a dog doesn’t have the ability to run or breathe or do anything a wild canid can do normally its time to let the breed go extinct weather that be sterilization of all members of that breed or mixing it with another population of dogs so that the offspring will be normal. And yes this sounds so drastic but thats what needs to happen. so what if somebody wants a dog that cant move or breathe. tough shit, how can anybody be so selfish as to inflict a disabilty like that on another creature for the sole purpose of”becasue i like it/ want it”. It’s time to stop catering to people who want what they want and start thinking of the animals. and if the little old lady down the street cant have her pug becasue it make the cutest snorting sound when it sleeps becasue its trying to breath then so be it.
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You’re back-peddling. This:
“going a bit more general here but I personally I think dog breeds and dog breeding as a whole needs to be abolished, save for the few breeds that actually perfrom ajob, such as border collies or working german shepherds/ malinois, and then that those breeds be completely evoted to health and longevity rather than looks at all.”
Does not equal this:
“Persoanlly I would be fully in support of outlawing the breeding of brachycephalic dogs or any type of dogs with extreme physical abnormalities.”
No matter what universe you live in. It is nice to see you get down off the ‘breeding working dogs is soooo much more noble in purpose than just breeding pets’ high horse. Oh, and your ignorance is showing; there are PLENTY of breeds bred to be pets that are not deformed or brachycephalic. Dogs and dog culture are not so simple as you seem to think. Your blind ignorance and simplification of the issues surrounding supply and demand in relation to pets is also appalling.
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The problem with JRT’s and Border collies, and working bred dogs of any sort, including retrievers, is they often are entirely unsuitable as pets. When you breed a dog for work or trials, it is likely to be so driven to have such strong working instincts that it can be a real challenge for it to have the proper stimulation.
Also if you check this blog out, you’ll see that working border collies, especially those bred for trials, really do have problems with genetic diversity.
In my own breed, the working type dogs are much more inbred than most of the show dogs.
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Working vs show vs pet breeding doesn’t actually matter. What matters is that in order for breeding of any kind to exist, it must have a market for the puppies. As long as the market persists, breeding of that type will exist. That is why you will not ever eradicate breeding for extremes, puppy mills, etc., as long as a market for those dogs exists.
Take the ‘everyone should buy from a responsible breeder’ argument. On the surface, this sounds great, just educate people in what a responsible breeder is, and they will go and find one and buy a puppy from them and all the irresponsible breeders will go out of business. Except that a) what a ‘responsible’ breeder is, is not cut and dried, b) there simply aren’t a lot of responsible breeders and they don’t produce enough puppies to fulfill demand, and c) there are plenty of people who want puppies who will not buy from a breeder who has demands in return, and d) there are plenty of people who want puppies that a ‘responsible’ breeder will not sell to, for various reasons. B, c, and d drive the market for puppies. Without changing the market, you will never have the utopia of every puppy being produced by a ‘responsible’ breeder.
I hate these kinds of discussions. People simplify things too much. There’s nothing simple about it.
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Jess is absolutely correct. The problems are not at all simple, and there are no simple answers. “Education” is an easy answer, but hey, look how effective that has been in solving various social ills. Ha. Dream on.
Education is a slow process, and not everyone can access it or even wants it.
People often do not even know what questions to ask. You cannot ask about the consquences of anything from brachycephalic traits to managing a working bred dog in a studio apartment, until it even dawns upon you that there MAY be a problem with it to begin with.
And it will not dawn for those who think of dog ownership as a casual item. People who come to a site like this have a real interest in dogs, and often other animals as well. Those who DO love them often don’t get those who don’t, because we are all living things and after all, what could be more interesting to one living being than another living being.
But for many, an interest in their own species is the limit. Or maybe something else like sports cars. Ah, life.
Although sites like this will likely never draw permanent readership from the lay-public, it does create a google search footprint that is found if anyone happens to search for things they’ve heard about in their potential breed. The internet is the great equalizer here, allowing minority views to be found by interested parties.
I also think it’s important to present reasoned arguments and opinions on ethics for people who are more involved. It gives them evidence and support to help them shape or reshape their own understanding and opinions, perhaps changing their actions as well.
Yes and most everyone googles now, but I cannot tell you how many folks would not even stop to google a breed, let alone really read this site.
Your intelligent, non-extremeist thinking and gene-speak is more than a lot of laymen can handle. 🙂
As to those who are more involved, I don’t doubt this could help a few reconsider their paths. Even a few is better than no one at all. I do refer people from other places online to your site; most recently a Facebook post regarding all the “Cool” border collie colors like MERLE and “lavender?”
I do believe in reason although I get passionate at times, and at such times, well, I figure, behind every great, scientific study, was an educated “notion” about something. You get the proof AFTER you have an idea.
Hi Urban Chick: I find your prospective quite interesting, as I frequently wonder …”What in the world would anyone breed a dog to create such health and structural issues? How do these Breeds find so many people that actually take on these structural and health issues? Are we getting closer to a Paradigm shift in dog breeding with ability to genetically test for such issues?
Let us take a statement read on a Rodensionan Ridgeback site for example.
“One charming explanation for the presence of the ridge – especially for children – is “That’s where God sews them up when he’s done stuffing them.” This is nonsense which regardless of breed these cutie little statements are only a fantasy in one’s own mind.
Rhodesian Ridgebacks are commonly affected with a developmental abnormality that results in tubular indentation (dermoid sinus) of the skin above the spine. These tunnels can run deep into underlying tissues as far as the spinal cord exposing the affected animals to risk of infections causing serious disease and pain. The Genetics is known to be caused by a mutation resulting in duplication of a length of DNA coding for three growth factor genes. This mutation, which has an autosomal dominant pattern of inheritance also causes dermoid sinuses.
If a Ridgeback has a ridge, he is either carrying two copies of the ridge gene (homozygous), or just one copy (heterozygous). Either way, the dog will have a ridge — you can’t tell if he has one or two copies from just phenotype. You might be able to figure out his genotype (that is, whether he is heterozygous or homozygous) retrospectively based on breeding history. However, if it does not have a ridge it can’t go in the show ring…right …right.
The quandary of beauty ridicule is questioned: How can an owner be proud to win this Award that I understand has been going on for twenty-two years? Because to revel in the unhealthy glory of the diseased, malformed, maltreated and deprived is NOT the ideal way to achieve any worthy goal.
http://www.whyihatedogs.com/2011/08/the-ugliest-dog-in-the-world-2011/
http://www.entirelypets.com/ugliestdog.html
Can you imagine the Vet bills? Why?
I understand our dogs should be our best friends, our companions, our guardians, and often even our therapists. They listen when we rant and rave, walk silently beside us when we’re feeling lonesome, and always give us the unconditional love that many human beings just don’t seem capable. There’s absolutely nothing ugly about this bonding of human and dog. It’s about as beautiful as life can get. Maybe it is the value of friendship which should be a two way street? Responsbility…. What did this breeding have to do with all this?
http://www.bestdaily.co.uk/your-life/news/a579896/peanut-named-the-worlds-ugliest-dog-2014.html
If you sell babies with two heads, and that is banned, then all you have to sell is regular babies.
Exactly! Some breeds are different because of the one malformation they are bred to have.
If the breeder can’t crank out more special puppies or kittens, then he is just producing barn cats and street dogs? Well, not quite. A ridgeless ridgeback is still a uniform breed even without the ridge. If Aussies dropped the merle gene they still would look like sheepdogs.
Pugs? It is tempting to say that, without the smashed face, kinky tail, short spine, etc, what would a Pug be? But look at Puggle photos (half Pug, half Beagle). In Puggle photos you can still see the Pug, just not so extreme. There’s a nice photo of a PugPin (half Pug, half Miniature Pinscher) on the slider in my blog. You can see the Pug, and the finer bones of the MinPin too.
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