Update: Qualzucht Wins Big at Westminster
Owner-handler Renee Beals wins BOB under Judge Walter Sommerfelt at 2012 Westminster with her son of Wyndlair Avalanche, the blind double merle matador.
The son of blind and deaf double merle stud, Wyndlair Avalanche, has won Best of Breed at the 2012 Westminster Kennel Club dog show. You can see “Vinnie” tonight during the Herding Group Judging.
GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication wins Best of Breed at Westminster 2012. He is the son of a blind double merle stud dog.
GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication is the son of Wyndlair Avlanche and Ch Twin City Cleopatra. He was bred by Anita & Matt Stetler and J Morris. He is also owned by Renee Beals and Laura Rizzo, handled by Beals.
“Vinnie” is not a double merle himself, but he was produced by one. Both of Avalanche’s parents are merle and he was intentionally bred by the Stetlers of Wyndlair Collies and “Mike” Cheatham of Southland Collies in hopes of creating a double-merle stud dog that would produce all merle offspring. His breeder’s succeeded by producing just one puppy in the litter (indicative of the severe harm to fertility breeding for double merle causes), and he was defective.
2012 WESTMINSTER KENNEL CLUB BREED JUDGING RESULTS: COLLIE (ROUGH)
Judge: Mr. Walter Sommerfelt
Day: February 13, 2012
Time: 11:30
Ring: 3
7 GCH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication
Breed: Collie (Rough)
Sex: Dog
AKC: DN 25429411
Date of Birth: June 24, 2009
Breeder: Matt & Anita Stelter & June Morris
Sire: Wyndlair Avalanche
Dam: GCH Twin City Cleopatra
Owner: Renee Beals & Laura Rizzo & Matt & Anita Stelter
This is what his breeders had to say about why they produced Avalanche:
Our decision to do a merle-to-merle breeding was the result of a couple years of frustration in not being able to find a quality non-merle stud dog that had the temperament, health, soundness, pedigree and breed type that we work to maintain in our breeding program. It was not a decision made lightly, but after much thought and consideration. Doing a merle-to-merle breeding should only be done by experienced and knowledgeable breeders, and only when a suitable non-merle with the desired quality is not available. Aiden’s sire and dam, both wonderful examples of correct Collie type, temperament and health as called for in the Collie standard, were the perfect complements to each other. Our hope in doing the breeding was not to produce a MM, but that is ultimately what we got. Aiden was a singleton puppy with no other littermates conceived. He has always been extremely healthy, happy and robust. He always has a smile on his face and his tail never stops wagging. Being a MM, you wouldn’t show him, as phenotypically he doesn’t appear as a recognized breed color. Genotypically, he is a blue merle with an additional merle gene.
We have never experienced or heard of any health issues in the Collie breed tied to the merle gene. Litter sizes, health and vigor are just as strong as with non-merles. Both Collies and Shelties have had notable MM producers of dogs without any illness or dysfunction. Each of the offspring of a MM inherit a single merle gene and are normal merles, phenotypically and genotypically.
Owner-handler Renee Beals of Cherokee Collies showing off "Vinnie" the son of shameful Wyndlair Avalanche.
Wyndlair Avalanche was never shown in conformation because he can’t see, he has been blinded by the entirely avoidable and easily preventable consequence of his breeding. It’s very unfortunate that his breeders won’t even admit to the public that they produced a blind and deaf dog so others can make the honest choice to not repeat their mistake. Avalanche has never won a single title or even attempted one, never been in the inside of a ring to be judged, never seen a dog show (or another dog), and yet he is now the #1 sire in Rough Collies and the #1 producer of Champions.
Here is what one of the breeders who used Avalanche as a stud had to say about his disability and his conformation:
I knew ahead of time that the breeding to Avalanche was taking a chance…Avalanche is basically blind and deaf. He will never be in the show ring. I don’t think I ever would do a breeding at Riverrun that would produce MM puppies. I want my puppies to all be healthy and I don’t want to ever take a risk of having a blind and deaf collie. Avalanche is also not very balanced – He is straight in front and doesn’t have a strong rear. He doesn’t move very well and that is the drawback on many of his puppies. At our National Specialty…there were many beautiful puppies sired by Avalanche, but most of them had very bad movement. I was getting worried after I saw them.
The Collie Club of America is currently plagued by chaos over the acceptance of sable-merle as an appropriate color, the President has resigned over the issue and factions are forming on each side. There are no known health issues with sable merle other than those with single merle and double merle, and yet the arguments over the ethics of crossing color lines in this case is paramount in the breed and little to no attention is being paid to the horrible ethical consequences of allowing breeders to create infertility, dead fetal puppies, and blind and deaf Collies simply to get a few more merle dogs each litter.
Collie breed clubs and Kennel Clubs around the world have rightfully banned the breeding of merle to merle to prevent the creation of crippled dogs like Avalanche. In the rest of the world, it’s unethical, at Westminster it’s Best of Breed.
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Do you know for sure the CCA President resigned over this particular issue? That is one fact I have not been able to verify.
I know for sure that the CCA President resigned over issues other than this one.
Chris my worse fear has been realized for our collie. Thank you from the heart beating at Kathy
As a DEAF dog rescuer, I am overwhelmingly and utterly DISGUSTED with the Westminister Kennel Club, Wyndlair Avalanche’s breeders, handlers, owners and co-owners, as well as the breed club that they all belong to. This Best Of Breed collie was intentionally bred merle to merle from a double merle DEAF AND BLIND stud dog. What is wrong with your MORALS and ETHICS when you KNOW as experienced breeders and industry people that you are going to produce damaged dogs? Is the PRIZE in the show ring that important to you that you don’t care that what your BREEDING STANDARDS AREN’T RIGHT? It’s called GREED.
Do you have a paypal donation link you’d like to post? I’m sure there will be readers who will want to support organizations like yours that help these dogs instead of exploiting them.
Yep I 110% agree it all comes down to greed on so many levels & from a few different levels too.
They don’t care all they care about is winning & selling stud duties & puppies the dogs welfare come very far down on the list for many show breeders I have dealth with.
I too am disgusted by this. I have been doing deaf dog rescue for 15+ years and it amazes me that any breeder would think this is remotely ok. Shame on them and on the parent club for rewarding the flashy merles in the show ring.
And, may I ask, what has happened to the “defective” offspring of this irresponsible breeding situation? This disgusts me.
Well, they got one puppy that survived and it was blind and deaf, and then it became one of the top producing sires in breed history. That’s what happened! It does raise the issue though of what other atrocities have these ethics-less people done that isn’t as easy to research. I’m not an insider here, I’m not airing dirty laundry, I just did some research and stumbled upon this. They didn’t try very hard to hide it.
What did they try to hide? Makes one think.
Please note that I am not defending the sire’s breeders, I only want to mention that the dam of the Best of Breed winner is a tri, not a merle.
Yes it’s the winning dogs sire that was a merle to merle breeding.
I totally agree with you. Westminster is doing the world of animal lovers a huge disservice. Someone need to track the offspring and post their life stories in puppy and dog forums, perhaps strike Westminster!!!!
Absolutely! Thank you Christoper! Our link for donations is:
https://secure.stardonor.com/giveto/AW/33-0700823.html
We rescue all breeds of Deaf Dogs, BTW, and also run a non-profit spay/neuter program.
I’m not against breeding for the betterment of the breed and showing dogs, but this one just takes the cake! Just immoral….
I Love Collies. I have had eight of them over the past 35 years, all but one were from Southland Collie Rescue. 5 blues, 2 tri’s and one sable, never for breeding. I can relate to this story because the only one that I got from a breeder was a product of a deaf and blind stud.
It was sad to find that out.
AngelDogs,
We have a deaf/partial blind merle at our shelter now. Poor baby is so lost. Can I email you and maybe discuss how to help this poor boy? He is currently at MCAS in Conroe, TX and this county run shelter is the best they can be.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=340063016033681&set=a.338407139532602.78069.114069718633013&type=1&theater
The director tries so hard for dogs like this. She is awesome. I volunteer there and also foster the critical care/sick/old and injured. I have to admit being in the breeding world has taught me a world of info and it is my time to give back to the dogs. I got out of the show dog world for precisely this type of top breeder/kennel bad behavior in Akitas. It was top stud dog that had microthalmia and just won everything and everyone want to breed to him…blah, blah, blah.
Christopher…I love your info on genetics and getting the word out about the Merles. We are seeing so many now come in the shelter. Sulley is not the only Merle to come in either. It is getting to be way to common and very, very sad.
Hi RachelJames,
Wish I could take him, but we are full at the inn. Catahoulas are one of my favorite breeds- they are such smart little comedians.
Please DO email me jpg pics attached to an email at: info@angeldogsfoundation.org. I’ll get some networking started on him, if he’s not all ready out there.
And for the record, people, EVERY TIME I say we are full at the inn, I lose sleep over it. In most cases, if someone doesn’t rescue or adopt these dogs, they DIE at the shelters. We must stop the breeding of disabled dogs.
Hit that facebook link in Rachel’s message, so you put a FACE on this immoral dilemma.
I put a question about this on yahoo answers dogs section:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=An7j5tJswDQkvYQZ_OtHTsPsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20120213160532AAjkxaE
Look at the responces, yet again they can not even see what they are saying & whats so blantantly wrong about efending this. Or that it reflects on how they go about their breeding programes.
That’s hilarious and sad at the same time. “UHave2BeKidding” was on the Westminster live feed while I was watching the breed judging and is clearly a collie apologist. “He’s not completely blind!” is not an acceptable answer to the questions I am raising.
Chris since the death of Joan Graber what I like to know who was selected to educate they
the new collie hopeful collie judges? Gentleman look sort of confused to me? Kathy
A question – isn’t the judge deliberately kept ignorant of a dog’s name and parentage in the ring in order to be judging *just* the dog in front of him? If so, then we can’t blame the judge if the dog meets the standard better than all the others presented on the day. Responsibility surely goes back to the registering authorities.
This particular dog & sire have been the subjects of huge advertisement campains & as the judge would have an interest in showing dogs I can not see how she would not have known who she was judging.
Even without the advertising we all know just how small the show dog community is & judges after all are just show breeders themselves & would take an interest in whats going on in the show breeding world in general. this judge would have to be as blind & deaf as the dogs sire to have not known in my opinion.
If she really did not & found out after the judging if I was her I would be making a public statement saying I don’t condone such breedings etc & am dissapointed that the breeder had taken such a risk.
After all other countries will not even give papers to merle to merle breedings. Westminster should have never let the dog show in their show as by it placing so highly it encourages more such breedings.
this is a perfect example of why many of us think the whole showing system is serously flawed as they are encouraging bad breeding pratices & breeding for extreme type by placing such dogs so highly.
They are just so blind(bit like the dog hay) & can not see the real issue at hand.
The truly sad thing is that it’s all about MONEY, and no about the DOGS at all.
I almost got into breeding and showing Collies, after 20 yrs of Samoyed exhibiting.
I now think I’d rather not be playing with dynamite.
I don not believe in inbreeding. Breeders of thorouhbred race horses certainly don’t.
Unfortunately, it is about money, as is everything in this world.
Let us PLEASE try to hold to our ethics.
The word is out, this post has already gotten 5,000 hits today. Sure, that’s a fraction of the number of people who will see the dog on TV, but it’s enough to get noticed.
What are the odds that they’ll try sending me a letter from a lawyer to shut me up?
I don’t know, but a point someone made on Yahoo answers bears repeating…if any of the people involved with Avalanche heard of a “backyard breeder” breeding two merle collies together, they would have plenty negative to say about that person. For some reason, showing in conformation gives you “carte blanche” as far as creating blind and deaf puppies? (and in many other ethical “grey areas” lol)
Kate,
Now isn’t that the truth, you have nailed it because they show they feel they can bend the rules but god help anyone else who even thinks of doing something similar.
Chris I hear the open and closed collie chat lines are drawing sides. Think those who enjoy performance and herding are not so thrilled. Kathy
Yep…..we are posting our little faces off. The parent breed clubs wiped my posts off their facebook pages in less than five minutes.
I’m pretty outraged, and I’m not going to shut up. We’d like the world to be aware of this one.
Deaf dog rescuers like Leslie from Bangtail and our org get to clean up the mess from this kind of indiscriminate breeding when they get dumped in the street, or in a shelter. Or juggled around from home to home. There are plenty of breeders throwing deaf pups and selling them without fixing them first. People you THINK are reputable.
As usual, it’s not about the DOGS, it’s about MONEY. Isn’t everything these days about MONEY? Geez, wish we had more of it, too, think how many more deaf dogs we could save, train and place, or spay and neuter so that the shelters can lower their impound numbers.
Frustrating………
Many people showing dogs are broke….
Yes, it’s the Ritz and the Pits. But the Pits don’t win Westminster.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/heavy_petting/2012/02/westminster_dog_show_2012_the_big_money_backers_that_dominate_the_show_dog_circuit_.html
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That article was interesting n leave me no doubt what wins dog shows not a good dog but money, advertising & self promotion.
I stand corrected.
However it seems like to me, it is more about fame than money for a lot of show breeders.
When you’re as rich as most of these people are, of course it’s not about the money. It’s recreational spending, just like taking trips to the Bahamas every summer or owning a 40′ yacht. You do it for the prestige and pleasure of it.
Actually they are not, but the puppy sales and stud fees do keep them in ribbons and paying for expenses. Kathy
Dave it is about being famous as strange as this reality might seem in my observations, experience and opinion. It is bizzare human complex behavior.
I am currently researching when “white merle” was changed from another box to check on AKC registration of oollies. Strange is it not this change was never to my knowledge put up to a vote by membership? Now how and why was this change made and who, what and when need to answered as well.
Not sad that they are broke. They DESERVE to be if they are doing breedings like this.
I’m pretty broke too, from rescuing DEAF DOGS from breedings like this.
By the way, what was the purse for Best of Breed? (or how much more money will they make next year from this partially sighted/deaf stud dog’s semen?)
Indeed having a heart with Rescue of Collies seems to take much from cash reserves. Especially those ‘Vet bills.
What a horrible rumor to post. And I love all the ignorant jumping on board to benefit? Ignorance is rampant. How many years have you spent studying genetics? The dog is NOT being tortured. He can’t miss what he never knew. The odds of deaf or blind are very high. If you knew anything about the study of genetics you would know that. Ignorant people brainwashed by the animal rights extremists about a subject when they have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE. YOu should be sued for spreading crap like this.If any of you are interested in really LEARNING about the genetics of the breed you should go to the Collie Club of America website rather than listening to ignorance.
Unfortunately, the Europeans do not share the same opinions ever since the Convention on 1996. If you look at FCI countries, the kennel clubs, and some of the breed clubs, ban merle-to-merle breeding. In fact, the Collie Breed Club in the UK banned such breeding. Moreover, if one goes and look at the reasons why such acts are regarded as illegal, there are scientific articles cited to why merle-factor is correlated to degeneration of the eyes and ears.
The fact that the CCA has yet to follow the patron breed club in the UK is quite telling of their stance in of itself.
You people make me sick in my stomach.
I have very little use for you dog show blood purity cultists.
You complain about animal rights fanatics.
But you’re feeding them.
Yes, they intentionally bred this dog, even though he’s never seen or heard anything.
If you don’t think that feeds the animal rights lunatics, you’re delusional.
The Collie Club of America can go fuck itself if it condones this bullshit.
There’s no ignorance coming from Chris, but you’re so full of it, it’s coming out your ears.
Retrieverman recently posted..Should the lundehund be in the closed registry system?
BTW, it’s not a rumor if it is true– and they readily admit to it on their website that promotes Avalanche, the Helen Keller dog!
Retrieverman recently posted..Should the lundehund be in the closed registry system?
You make a very good point.
Dog show exhibitors will do themselves in, if they don’t mend their ways or they don’t have more severe watchers
So I take it that you’re not missing your ethics because you never had any to start with? Congratulations, the rest of us have to live with the moral implications of qualzucht like this.
@Christopher says:
“So I take you’re not missing your ethics since you never had any to start with?”
BEST. QUOTE. EVER.
8200 hits yesterday. Over 20000 already today.
That’s about as many as I get in a week.
Wow!
Retrieverman recently posted..Dogs were not created by inbreeding– but they are being destroyed by it
I have plenty of knowledge on picking up the pieces of these messes. When I did rescue it was not just cross breed & unpapered dogs no there are plenty of defective papered dogs that come through. When you ring their breeder they want nothing to do with the dog, thats what I KNOW!!
Who is spreading untruths, no one it’s the facts double merles should not be bred on with & in no way should they be breed for. The facts are 25% will have eye problems, that is FACT!! How can you argue with that. We don’t breed 1 framed overo to frame overo in horses because the 25% chance of a leathal white foal(who all die painful deaths) so why should the dog breeders take the chanse? Slander would be on the table if we where talking fairy tales but we are not the facts are right there for anyone with their eyes open to see.
Yes, Sam and I am tired of cleaning up thier messes and giving them the love and care that was their responsiblity. Yes, there is money in dogs..MINE Kathy
etbmfa, I appreciate that you might be a tad “upset” because Christopher has chosen to highlight this issue. Can I ask what your experience in canine genetics is please? The rules are clear on genetics in relation to merle x merle matings. Europe has banned it because of the health and welfare implications it raises. Can you tell my please why you think this is OK? One puppy bred that is deaf and blind is one puppy too many! In my humble opinion of course! 😉
Annie Macfarlane (Scotland UK) recently posted..What are the incentives for breeding healthy puppies?
What total rubbish! So ANY genetic defect that results from your immoral breeding decisions is okay, because the dog doesn’t really know what he doesn’t have? You represent all that is evil about breeding. Any ETHICAL breeder would be concerned FIRST about the dogs being happy, healthy FUNCTIONAL animals, and LAST about what color their coat might be. Unless, of course, the only real objective is a scrap of fabric from the show ring.
So etbmfa, let me get this correct, you are a member of the CCofA and you are touting that a double merle breeding is acceptable. I just want to clarify that that is truly what you are saying.
“He cannot miss what he never knew”, hmm that has been said to me as a rescuer for many years by breeders who never allow a dog to touch the ground or to be socialized or are breed for profit and not breed standards.
When doing my research for breeding shelties many years ago, I did my research and and I would never breed certain genetic issues to try and avid the odds, I made darn sure I made no mistakes, IF you cannot find a dog that has the same qualities as yours then you either do not breed that dog or you continue searching, this person did not have the dog or the future dogs in mind they had their eye on the prize, in this case, the biggest prize of all.
Someone else stated that the pups coming out of the dog do not have the greatest conformation. IF you are a reputable breeder you would not breed that dog again as you want the best of the best.
And obviously the sire of this dog never got a CERF test , so why in the heck would anyone want a puppy from a dog that would never pass this very important test? and most experts would tell you that a dog with these obvious breed defects the best thing you can do is to neuter that dog and take him out of your breeding program..
Yes I do know my genetics, for breeding dogs.
Westminster USE to be about showing the best of the breeds now it is for those who have the most money and there are no longer any morals, just greed.
It is NOT alright to purposely breed mutated & handicapped dogs for profit! They know the animals will be inferior & yet they breed them anyway, killing the severely deformed pups, or giving them away to get pregnant & abused, or end up in high kill shelters. It’s disgusting & unethical. They should be held to a HIGHER standard, NOT a LOWER one!
There was one puppy born from the breeding, he is deaf and blind,but there is no evidence of problems from MM breeding? Try explaining that to my dog who is blind in one eye and deaf in one ear and from a MM breeding. The facts speak for themselves. They can live a good life when adopted by someone who is willing to help them deal with the issues. But to take a chance of creating one for money is reprehensible.
THANK YOU to some of the deaf/blind dog owners, trainers and rescuers that are speaking up here.
In the three years that we’ve been rescuing deaf dogs, there are MORE AND MORE that need safety.
Not hard to see how we are getting there, is it?
The Kennel Club has banned the registration of Shetland Sheepdogs (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/restrictions.aspx?id=5140) but refuses to recognise the same problem in other merle breeds.
We all know that pups are disposable … if they are not worth anything then get rid of them but now with the value escalated due to the potential of breeding winners I can see a lot more of these pups being discarded when their potential is not realised.
My webiste was supposed to be about education but I am having more and more deaf/blind dogs in to foster and rehome 🙁
Lethal Whites Uk
http://lethalwhitesuk.webs.com/
I just don’t see how they defend it with it banned in many breeds & countries.
Well if you read all the genetic and molecular evidence on update findings you might feel quite foolish for this post. Kathy
Being the owner of a blind purebred I am of the opinion that people like you have NO idea what you’re doing!! It is totally unacceptable for breeders to use these animals and pass on the traits through their offspring.
Seems to me the ignorant people are the irresponsible breeders out there and the people as yourself who defend them!!!!
Perhaps we’re neutering the wrong animal!!
Darlene, you have misunderstood something. One point. Abreeder is not “passing on any unwanted the traits of the double-dilute sire through its offspring.”
On the contrary. The double-dilute sire when mated to any other color of collie will produce blue merle, but not a double dilute. A blue merle itself is not a defective dog at all.
What concerns us here is the mating of any two merle dogs. That’s the topic under discussion. I’m just attempting to clarify.
Actually normal heterozygous merles does have issues on par with other white factored dogs. Merle is not a care free harmless gene, even in the single form. Sorry. Try again.
The merle gene is the defective gene & carries a risk of deafness & blindess in the heterozygous form the odds increase when it’s hom as a double merle is.
The fact many other colors can hide a merle gene means you risk mating the double merle to a dog with the merle also.
Christopher thats correct is it not?
There just is nothing defendable about the breeding that produced this dog sire & any offspring this sire has produced should not be on full registration as their sire should have NEVER been on full reg himself imho.
Barbara Indeed this was my own quest for knowledge as I followed genetic study and research. So I understand your confusion.
This is not a rumour as the breeders have attempted to justify breeding Merle to Merle to ensure they get a stud/brood that produces only Merles.
As for them saying that theire are no related health issues wtf it is simple breeding melre to merle runs the risk of producing blind/deaf/epileptic offspring & ergo should never be done.
Thank doG here in the UK the Rough Collie/Smooth Collie/Sheltie/Border Collie/Cardigan Corgi clubs all condemn MM matings.
No way can a blind/partially sighted/deaf collie be considered “Fit for Function”& ergo no breeding that runs the risk of producing such dogs should be done-Jeez it ain’t rocket science
Yep ceratianly agree it’s not rocket science & this particular mating was further doomed to failure in my eyes due to the serverely close breeding throughout the entire breeding also.
Why compound risks as they did with this mating, it had very high risks due to the merle to merle gene & then added risks of other health issues cropping up due to the dog being so tightly breed on 1 dog.
etbmfa- you are WITH the breed club. How can you say that “he can’t miss what he never knew.”? This is an acceptable reason in your club to breed a partially sighted dog?
Your Collie Rescue Foundation, which is a daughter org to your breed club has a story about a blind dog seized from a hoarding/cruelty case. One of 11 dogs. You can’t possibly say that you aren’t aware of these breedings. Apparently, by not jumping in to stop them, you sanction them.
Below that is a holiday picture of a dog that is an obviously blind dog, a very beautiful dog. Also bred by a club member?
If I read between the lines of your post above, it means that your breed club thinks it’s okay to breed a dog that doesn’t pass a health clearance for eyesight to be used as a stud dog.
It matters not to me whether this dog is completely blind or partially sighted. He should not have been used as stud. On my planet, something is wrong with the picture. On a human level, that really pushes the envelope on common decency. (please note: human is not a typo, and is not missing an e. I am not an animal rights person or a tree-hugger, simply a deaf dog rescuer who works 24/7 to help people and their pets in my local communities)
I don’t need an education in genetics. It’s common sense not to breed a genetically defective animal. Common sense.
Don’t lecture me about “benefitting”. If people like you didn’t sanction breeding like this, we’d be happily sticking to breed rescue, which we have done for over 10 years, instead of rescuing deaf dogs of all breeds. Since our favorite breed is pretty rare, we’d have an empty house right now, with our dogs not having to share love with deaf foster dogs waiting for new homes.
The Collie Club of America is obviously not on Planet Dog, it is on Planet Money.
Keep posting your drivel and excuses. You just piss me off more. You can threaten to sue me, but it’s probably not going to shut me up. Word’s out. Clean up your mess.
I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree!!!! Hear hear!
When a couple of puppies were born tri-colour 2 years ago in my breed, the Bracco Italiano, all hell broke out because the breeder registered them with the Kennel Club. The people complaining about how this was not representative of our breed were happy to allow litters registered to dogs directly related to dogs that had died from amyloidosis and kidney disease; dogs with high hip scores; eye problems and the like….but let’s not let anybody actually “see” what can go wrong with genetics! Heavens above! There were even comments made that tri-colour Bracchi don’t work as well as “normal” coloured Bracchi. I offered to take one, train it up and disprove this theory but nobody took me up on it. The Italians were up in arms apparently but they have bred from tri colour dogs in the past. I wanted to see these dogs registered because, in the future, when people are researching pedigrees and bloodlines they need to know that such a combination produced tri-colour puppies. The stud dog was out of Axel Del Monte Alago…the world winner! I can understand where people were coming from but a colour is a colour – as long as it causes no health issues! Merle x Merle breeding is torture. To say that a dog can’t miss what he hasn’t had really highlights the huge problem you have in the USA. Pedigree Dogs Exposed 2 is about to be aired here in the UK – just before Crufts! I think the KC have tried to make changes in the UK, but the one main change that would help all pedigree dogs is that no puppies will be registered unless mandatory health screening (with good results) has been carried out. That means parents would have to undertake eye tests prior to breeding…and no blind dogs would pass and eye test. Grow up; move into the world of ethical dog breeding. Do you really think there are so few Rough Collies in the world that you need to use a deaf and blind dog as a stud? Remember please that this is a SCOTTISH breed….and we don’t want you to be causing pain and suffering to an animal that is part of our heritage. The Rough Collie was given too you on premise that you would be it’s caretaker! You do not have a right to change a SCOTTISH breed beyond all recognition….just because it looks nice! The Rough Collie is a working breed…how do you expect a working breed to work if it can’t see or hear? Your ignorance offends me greatly…. Remember, you are the caretakers of a SCOTTISH breed….no more…and you are a disgrace!
“He can’t miss what he never knew.”
Oh.
My.
God.
So say the good citizens of Omelas.
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Yes, he could never miss what he never knew. The all around collie a Scottish breed that wss brought to some American hearts through Lassie, and Terhune.
As this is an explosion that it being heard and seen around the world we who do not want the AR or the money exchangers take this one into bankrupcy. We do not want to bring another lethal gene back into our collies like “Bob tail” Lethal as once likely was faced by our Scottish allies.
A bobtail indicated it was a working dog, so the poor shepard was not TAXED for his Ownership not its Guardianship. Kathy
Why do I get this sick feeling that Hitler would approve of what Westminister is promoting with Double Merle breeding?
Actually, Hitler probably would not have approved of MM breeding. The merle gene was present in early German Shepherd Dogs, but eliminated in the early part of the twentieth century. It was rightly believed that merle gene caused health problems and German Shepherds, as a breed, were better off without it. Even heinous dictators can get this right!
Terri because you recognize the FEAR TACTICS and the search to find a common enemy that can take reasonable God Fearing people into a gang mentality. Just as my grandmother said, who came here as an immigrant from Germany: “Always be careful who what and where and how your sources of information and knowledge oomes.” Because, she said,”What happen for me to lose my homeland can happen here in this great new land” Especially, “When there are no jobs, no homes, and no food for the hungry”.
Sad. So very, very sad.
I’m honestly a bit sick to my stomach. It just goes to show you how disturbing we humans can be, all for the sake of a ribbon.
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As well as money and ego.
Yes, there are wars of history fought over bird poop. Kathy
If supposed “reputable” breeders are not bothering to breed as they should and Kennel Clubs are condoning this by awarding/rewarding them, what hope do rescuers have of ever ending the battle against puppy mills and backyard breeders. Honestly at this point I am beginning to think there are not any reputable breeders or kennel clubs.
I feel your pain. These brainless, greedy idiots are the reason you & I are broke & don’t sleep at night. Lack of Humanity will be Mankinds downfall. May they rot in Hell…
Thank you for bringing this to everyones attention. This is absolutely horrible. I own a blue merle sheltie — mom was a tri…dad a blue…and I follow this sort of thing in the Sheltie world sometimes. I find it horrifying that people decide to play God and knowingly bring puppies into the world who are going to have serious health problems….all for the sake of getting a super flashy puppy for the show ring. Disgusting. Kudos to you for bringing this into the light so that others can be informed.
The other thing to remember is, you don’t get a more flashy dog, deeper colors, or better markings by breeding merle to merle. You get the same percentage of blue pups whether you breed merle to tri or merle to merle – about half.
You can decry the breeding of the sire all you want, but how is the judge at a dog show supposed to know the dog was sired by a double merle? Why are you placing blame on Westminster? All they did was accept an entry.
The dog was invited not just entered & it was brought to their attention well before the show by a few very upest dog lovers.
Also anyone who believes the judge dosn’t know the dogs pedigree or at least have a vague idea of it needs to open their eyes. Judges are human & dog lovers(or meant to be)& generally very interested in bloodlines of winning show dogs, they will have seen all the advertising surronding this dog & his offspring over the last yaer or 2. They can’t just forget what they have seen, read & looked at on websites leading up to this particular show.
But the individual judge is not where I lay my blame anyway it’s the Westminster show commitity for letting the dog compete & the kennel club for allowing the sire to be papered on full registery in the first place.
They know what winning at this level can do for a bloodline & know there will be many now wanting to breed their very own Vinnie & many will try do so by using the sire. So they are premoting double merles by allowing this win.(sorry for my spelling)
This is your only comment? Please, try rubbing two brain cells together and realize that I’ve written THOUSANDS of words about the breeder and the ethics of breeding merle to merle. Do you see any hatred for some Judge in this post? Move along. This post is here to highlight the ethics that created this dog now that it’s high profile. Duh.
While I disagree with the owners decision to breed the sire of this dog, or even this dog for that matter! I do not agree with the title. I can’t imagine that the AKC or the Westminster Kennel club can check the pedigree of each dog, or mandate that an owner divulges all health issues with the clubs. So how does this make Westminster responsible?? Now it would be nice for the AKC to not register dogs like this dogs father, that way his litters could not be registered as well, but I don’t foresee that happening in the near future. At this point, it is up to the “breeder” to do the right thing, and this is a prime example of them not doing that. This is why it is important to do your research when breeding a dog, or a pet. Because of people like this!
And I ment buying a pet… not breeding your pet…. Dont do that…
Why not other countries kennel clubs refuse to register these high risk type of color matings?
I too agree the breeder is the biggest evil player in this senerio but the Westminster dog show was informed well ahead of time & still allow the dog to compete & the sire should have never been allowed a full registration in the first place.
So I see 3 evil players in this.
I see FOUR, Sam. Don’t forget to include the CCA, as they chose to IGNORE it.
Very true Angeldogs very true & sad.
HI.
I only wants’ to tell that in Denmark, and several other countries in Europe, it’s forbidden to breed blue/blue. It’s also forbidden to do a blue/sable mating, the puppies will not be registret in DKK (Danish Kennel Klub).
Bianca.
First of all how can you all be so outraged at the judge for putting Vinnie up Best of Breed? How does this judge know who the sire and dam are to this Vinnie???
And 2nd, to angel dog foundation…I’m just wondering but EXACTLY how many COLLIE Double dilutes do you take into your rescue? And IF in fact you have taken ANY AT ALL…who were the breeders? A BYB? A puppy mill?
As a member of Collie Club of America – our dogs are not to be turned into rescue!
As far as Avalanche’s breeders/owners…they have kept him and raised him The dog is not in a rescue, nor was he put down because he was a DD.
And to say that the CCA president resigned because of this issue…it would be in your best interest to do your homework before you post slanderous lies for the world to read!
Collie owner, you can’t possibly think that people are THAT stupid, can you? Can you really?
I also do breed rescue. Some of the people in the national rescue also show dogs. The show people and judges all know each other. They know the dogs. They know the pedigrees. This is their industry and their hobby.
I’m not the only deaf dog rescuer in the country. The Collie Club of America and it’s members that lack a sense of right and wrong have managed to outrage both deaf dog rescuers and owners internationally. You simply don’t have a leg to stand on. Your club has swept it’d dirt under the rug for years, and you can’t go hide with it.
Your club Code Of Ethics is posted online. It’s apparently not worth the paper that it’s written on. Your club is not practicing what it preaches, nor is it enforcing the Code of Ethics:
Proof that the Code of Ethics for the Collie Club of America isn’t worth the paper it’s written on:
8. All breeding shall be done with the intention of advancing and protecting the breed. All Collies used for breeding shall be in good health and free from communicable disease. Dogs known to be sterile, cryptorchid or monorchid shall not be offered at stud. Stud dog and bitch owners shall notify the other of any physical problems and/or any known inherited genetic defects or any other condition in their dogs.
13. All members will be given a copy of this Code when joining and by the act of joining shall signify their acceptance of this Code in its entirety. Any member then violating this Code either in content or intent shall be punished according to the severity and intent of the violation up to and including expulsion from the club.
Look at the web page for Avalanche the stud dog: http://www.wyndlaircollies.com/collie.cfm?cid=24&c=3
Does it state anywhere that he is partially sighted or deaf, or has a genetic defect that might be passed on? This is the equivalent of ADVERTISING, and it’s MISLEADING. All of us can only hope that owners of bitches bred to this stud dog were duly informed of his defects.
I think that the whole industry is BROKEN.
AKC should be offering registrations to health certified dogs only. AKC currently registers anyone that wants to pay the fee.
How did Avalanche pass a CERF eye test? What kind of breeder uses semen or a stud dog that hasn’t been fully health screened and cleared?
Your club is BROKEN. Some of your members obviously are less than diligent about health issues, and breeding them into the genetic lines. Whatever their reasons are, it’s disgusting. If your breed club doesn’t care or enforce, what makes the club or any of it’s members any better than the “backyard breeders” or “puppy mills” that you are complaining about?
We all assume that when someone belongs to a breed club that they are a reputable and responsible breeder. Thank you for bursting that balloon of non-reality.
Westminister is BROKEN. How did they allow a dog bred from a M/M deaf/partially sighted dog to show? If you tell me that they didn’t know about it, I’ll offer to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge for a nickel.
YOU obviously have no idea about the reality of rescue. Most of the time, I have no idea where the dogs came from. If I’m lucky, I can get a story out of the shelter if there are notes in the computer. We just take them, rehab them, fix their health issues if we can, make them good family members and find them wonderful new families.
I have a very hard time believing that your members don’t cull deaf/blind dogs from M/M breedings. Or turn them into rescue.
Is the policy in your club to cull defective puppies like it is in the Dalmation Club of America? Perhaps you could give us all a direct answer on this.
Angel, with regard to your last comment: The double-dilute sire of the Best of Breed Collie winner does *not* have a defect that is being passed on.
Furthermore, there’s no reason to suspect any violation of either of the two items you cited of the CCofA Code of Ethics.
Actually, Barbara, Avalanche is known to pass along both CEA related issues and Colobomas which obviously can’t be diagnosed easily in a dog that has severely screwed up eyes.
And you think this is ethical? Or do you only think that ethics is defined by laws of a breed club? Where do you see this as a RULES violation. Sorry, I’m not making any arguments based upon some bylaws. I’m making a TRUE MORAL argument based upon fundamental morality, not some piece of paper in some cabinet in some breed club office that says what is allowable or not. Are you that dense? You think this is ok because it’s not currently banned in this breed in this country? Is that the only reason you’re a good person (assuming here)… you follow someone else’s rules? And if there isn’t a rule, it’s ok?
To the several of you who claimed the judges don’t know the dogs they are judging- that statement is nonsense. Are you kidding?
The judges all know the breeds they judge intimately and often are breeders of one or more of the breeds they judge. I know all the major lines of several breeds, and I was never a judge, only studying to breed. I have known quite a few judges and they are old time breeders- EVERY one of them! They can’t even get into judging circles if they are not HIGHLY, highly connected. They are very political animals with a lot of opinions which they allow to guide them in making their winning picks.
Avalanche is not a stud dog for good collies- he was never shown because his genetic problems exclude him from the ring. It is also agreed that he is a poor mover and so are his pups. Even if he could see, the poor movement should be enough to keep him out of the ring or from winning if he did step in. So. The ONLY reason he was bred was to double down on the merle genes in the hopes of getting more merles to the litter or more depth to the merle alleles or some other cockamamie reason. It is not working, because he is not throwing full, robust litters, but pathetic single pup litters.
Breeding dogs to get a desirable or saleable color is the stupidest reason of all to breed a dog. But, people love those merles, so breeders keep breeding for them, even though it releases a certain number of impaired dogs into the world, pups which soft-hearted puppy-savers must take care of, for life. Those pups should have been put down at birth. Including Avalanche himself. Breeding good collies should not include breeding impaired dogs for a rare- and dangerous- color. I was raised in AKC circles and know them well. In my day, breeders culled the defective dogs as close to birth as possible and only sold or gave away healthy pups. Clubs reduced their gene pools rather than loose defective dogs on the world.
Backyard breeders include a range of breeders and may be among the best sources to get a dog- if you do a little research. Blindly relying on a breed club or an AKC pedigree may get you as much grief as buying from a bad puppy farm or bad backyard breeder. Even if the dog is not blind or deaf, the chances of any closed registry dog having serious health problems manifest as the years go on, is quite high. It also increases with every generation the registry is closed.
A lot of people already know this, because AKC registrations have fallen precipitously since the mid-80’s. Now, the MAIN source of AKC registration income is from puppy farms, now known as Corporate Breeding Operations. The AKC would be dead if not for the puppy farm breeders.
Kate Williams recently posted..States crack down on puppy mills- and puppy imports are up
Kate, you are so mistaken about “The judges all know the breeds they judge intimately and often are breeders of one or more of the breeds they judge.” So MANY judges don’t know a thing about the breeds they judge. I am not defending the judge who put this MM up, but I don’t think judges should follow bloodlines, because they will then pick what they LIKE, not what is correct, which is not always the same thing!!!! Judging and showing is so subjective, hence the problems that are arising over this very thing!
Oh thats just so old Collie Owner blameing all genetic deformities on byb’s, lol. I’m sorry to inform you I too have been heavily involved in rescue & still do my bit for my own breed & I have had some very sad conversations with registered & so called respondsible breeders when a dog they have breed comes into care. The magority wont even take their own breedings back & seem to think it’s ok for rescue to fork out to clean up their messes. Any dog i have ver breed is ALWAYS welcome home no matter the time thats placed or the reason why but I’m afraid this is not true of the magority of registered breeders I have had to deal with over the years.
Years ago you didn’t get to see all the genetic color linked problems because they where culled at birth but now these mis marked & mis colored pups have become popular in pet homes & some cases in show/breeding homes as is the case in your breed we are getting to see just how many mistakes there really are by your registered breeders.
get your head out of the sand your club is a joke & they stand for nothing good. they make rules & then reward those who don’t follow them is how it’s starting to look to me & I know I’m not alone in thinking this.
No Sam you are not alone.
How much vitriol do you see me spewing at the judge? Oh please. The title “unethically bred dog’s son wins at Westminster” just isn’t as evocative or concise.
This is unethical. Clean your own house or the public and especially the AR people will BURN IT DOWN. And they will take the rest of us in purebred dogs with you. And I don’t want that. Grow some ethics and shun this cruel and unethical breeding.
Indeed Chris well put. I also hate to tell you have seen at least three rescued white and spotting Border Collies here of late.
I saw a white Akita and white Shepard mix coming right out of a Shelter that was neutered at 4 weeks old the other day. They are spaying and neutering when the puppy reaches a specific weight. This puppy was actually adopted by a worker who thought white dogs were beautiful. He looked like a long hair German Shepard. Like many of these rescues who are spayed and neutered so young had broken a leg.
The shelter worker supported the early spay/neuter. I ask why? I also explained that a female dog can not get pregnant until she goes into season. Explain the hormones of males/females are important elements in growing strong bones etc. Oh, she still supports spay and neuter.
Shelters do what they have to. One of the most significant indicators for dogs and cats going to shelters is not being spayed or neutered. Unaltered animals are returned to shelters at a much higher rate than spayed or neutered animals. Yes, there are some health issues associated with pediatric spaying or neutering, but the folks running the shelters have determined that benefit that accrues TO THE ANIMAL with early altering outweigh the health issues.
The gene that causes white in German Shepherds is a different gene that the white gene that causes deafness. White GSDs are just as healthy as the normal saddle or sable markings. White coloration was outlawed early in GSD breed history because knowledge of genetics was incomplete and it was assumed that the white, along with merle, caused health problems.
BTW, it’s German ShepHERD, as in German Shepherd’s Dog, not ShepARD.
Sorry it’s just not healthy to de sex before 6 months in my eyes, re home them with de sex vounchers instead.
Some shelters do that, but they have no way to follow up to make sure that the surgery is done. It’s too easy for people to forget, or lose the voucher, or not notice the dog is in heat. Some lousy individuals get unaltered dogs from shelters and breed them on purpose.
It’s not the best for the individual, but makes sense when you’re talking about the population as a whole – preventing future litters of “oops” puppies from ending up in the pound.
Make them pay more & offer a money refund for a % of what they paid when the dog is de sexed.
It amazing me how people have no idea these days how to look after their entire dogs & not have litters. No livestock farmer de sexs their dogs yet not many have unwanted litters(well not the old timers anyway), they pen bitches in heat. Just is that simple yet people today can’t manage it.
Damn I have several entire TM bitches but I have only had 1 litter in the last serverl years it dose not take a rocket scientist to lock a bitch up surely. Yet I know these days in many cases people have no clue & will let them wander the street in heat….
A lot of rescues charge a refundable deposit that is returned when the animal is altered. A rescue has a lot more control than a shelter over where there dogs go and which humans might qualify for a dog. Pediatric spaying might not be the best thing for any one dog, but it may be the best overall.
Nope, if people are allowed to adopt dogs from the shelter with a waiver & deposit to get their dogs fixed in the future, most of them do NOT show up to have the dog fixed. Even if you call them and remind them. Have experienced this first hand.
As a rescuer, once that dog leaves your hands you have very little control over care issues. All you can hope is that you screened very well to find the very best home that treats their new dog like a family member. I don’t think that most rescues have funding to pursue litigation to get a dog back if the care is poor. I would never release a rescue dog/pup on a contract. I would fix it first.
You can’t assume that the average dog owner knows what we all do about responsible pet ownership. In most cases, they are educated by TV advertising and how their last family pet was cared for, which may be correct or incorrect. People lead busy lives, and don’t necessarily have the time or tools to educate themselves.
I agree that pediatric sterilization may not be the best for any one dog, but it is best overall. Perhaps when we see a day with no pets dying at the shelters due to a lack of good homes and indiscriminate breeding, we can re-think this.
I see you guys point I really do but it’s just so frustrating to me that we have to go this way about de sexing dogs just because people are so silly these days.
I’m lucky enough that I don’t deal in big numbers(although I did do a lot more foster when I lived in a city & toke on rotties & shephards) & only do my own breed rescues & take on difficult fosters that others have not been able to re train so they don’t leave here until they are of a mature age anyway which make the de sexing issue a lot easier. Thank goodnes Tibetan Mastiffs are still in such small numbers rescues are rare atm but we have gotten several new breeders in the last couple of years & I have a strong feeling things may be set to change in the future. Problem is they are seen as a statas symbol & the truth is very few homes are actually suitable for taking on a TM. They wont a big cuddle furry bear looking dog but they don’t understand what true guardian temperments are all about & most breeders are not willing to tell their puppy buyers the whole thruth warts & all.
I have 1 male here atm who is a killer, through & through & there is no way his past owners partner did not know yet they mentioned nothing & even told me he was fairly well socalized. This dog will spend the rest of his life with me as even with full disclosure the last foster home I tried him with allowed a young male shettland sheepdog to have acces to his pen even after I told her just because he will play nice on mutual territory NEVER trust him when on his own turf whether supervised or not. She thought she knew better, bad result & dog is back with me & he will never leave again. My mistake I thought I had done every thing possible to check her out & I knew she had shown TM’s in the past for a breeder so though she’s have some idea but I was wrong. This dog has to be exercised with only certain other members of our pack(he is very high energy teenager, can only be off leash in certain areas after I’ve run him beside the ute for 5 km & takes up a lot of my time but I feel I let him down by misguiding the foster home & owe it to the breed in generally to do all in my power to keep him happy & healthy even if it’s very time comsuming on a daily basis. He is the product of a 1/2 sibling mating where only 3 pups survived & has a terribly under shot jaw, bad temperment & not the norm for a TM although the parts of his temperment that are very TM don’t really help mixed with his issues either. He came to me entire along with an entire bitch & they where trying to mate them even though the bitch was also the granddaughter to the male that was this dogs grandfather on both top & bottom. So I do know the frustrations of having to trust others with dogs we have rescued ect & can see where your coming from about the de sexing it’s just a pity is all.
It would appear that the real essence and reasoning behind this thread is not getting through to some of the breed purists.
The whole thing about this thread is that no ethical breeder would do a MM breeding because of the likelihood of producing deaf, blind and lame puppies. This breeder chose to ignore that fact, or did consider it and then realised that breeding a dog for the show ring and their 15 minutes of fame was more important to them than breeding a sound dog which is, of course, more beneficial to the dog. The breeder was selfish, unethical and downright greedy.
I will say this again, the Rough Collie and Shetland Sheepdog are SCOTTISH breeds and we don’t like what you are doing to them. This breed was bred for work. There is no way that a dog who is deaf and blind can do a day’s work. That would be bad enough but to deliberately mate MM to produce this dog is the most disgusting thing I have heard in a long time.
Don’t think that the judges don’t know what dogs are being entered and their backgrounds. There is nothing honest about this whole situation. The breeder should be banned. I certainly don’t want them owning an animal and doing that to it….and the breed is part of MY heritage. Clearly you lot don’t seem to bother about what the Rough Collie was originally bred for….
Disgusting statements that confirm there is no humanity or ethics in the CCA and its members.
Annie Macfarlane (Scotland UK) recently posted..What are the incentives for breeding healthy puppies?
Oh, and if the president didn’t resign because of this issue then he bloody well should have. Anybody that loves a breed would never be happy about this type of breeding.
Thank you.
This breeder should be banned from the AKC for life. I am so disgusted by the AKC, who registers puppy mill dogs… the breeders all of it. I’m disgusted by Westminster too, dropping Pedigree because they support rescue.
I dropped my AQHA membership because they allowed HYPP horses to be registered. The AKC and this horrid breeder are just as bad.
Anyone who breeds blind and deaf dogs hoping for the best is a fucking moron.
AMEN!!!
I am not one to push for lots of laws governing what breeders can and can’t do with their dogs, but I do think this is a very bad situation. One thing the AKC could do to prevent future Avalanches would be to deny full (breeding) registration to double merle dogs. This would stop people from DELIBERATELY breeding two merles together…because it would take all the dollar signs out of the decision!
Granted, it is incredibly unlikely that the AKC would ever step up to the plate in that way. However, at the very least the CCA might like to show the rest of the world that they do not support the deliberate breeding of handicapped dogs. To do this, the CCA could add to their Code of Ethics a stipulation that no member shall intentionally breed two merle dogs together. Any member doing so shall be booted from the CCA.
If the CCA doesn’t do something in response to the public outrage on this issue, it is going to appear to the rest of the world that the CCA supports the practice of doing breedings which result in an average of 25% of puppies being blind, deaf, or worse. This is just one more revelation which will turn the public against dog breeding and add fuel to the fire of the AR types, I fear…!
Kate, you are right. It will add fuel to the fire.
Don’t expect the CCA to do anything. They are busy making excuses and using the word “slander” to scare us into shutting up.
Other breed clubs that are overlooking issues that are on the same level should wake up and smell the coffee.
For the record, we don’t believe in culling dogs. We rescue deaf dogs (and no- we don’t breed- ever), and have hands-on experience that in the right hands they can have very high quality lives. They should be FIXED so that they can’t procreate, and so should the sire and dam that threw them to prevent future “oops” litters.
Reading stuff like the Avalanche story is really disappointing. I DO own purebred dogs, and have a favorite breed. In a perfect world, I’d like to believe that there are some breeders with ethics. I don’t want to see a world where we don’t have a choice, but do want to see one where pets are bred and born responsibly and provided with homes for each and every one of them. No deaths at the shelter, no suffering due to in-bred genetic issues. This issue really shot that bird right out of the sky.
Yep fueling the fire is what they are doing, whilst they blame the greenies, rescue people & activist they are their real own worst enemy in this case.
I too have pure breeds & don’t want to see all pure breed dog breeders villified but can certainly see why people are starting to get the picture that we are not all anywhere near as respondsible as we should be.
I have also breed crossbreeds in the past & very well may do so in the future so I am a rare egg in this basket in that I want their to be room & understanding for both & for the public to really know what a responsible ethical breeder is all about.
For me that means taking respondsiblity for EVERY pup I breed, I always take back any dog in need of re homing & or re training that I have breed no excuses ever, I won’t mate untested dogs(I test for more than just the breed/s reccomended tests too), I won’t sell a pup if i think it’s may be unsuitable in any way, money is never a part of the decisions made when it comes to my dogs daily lives, comfort, health, housing or diet. I don’t exsept to make any money & fully aknowledge that every dog I breed actually will cost me money. Can many of your registered breeders say that, Collie Owner?
Yes I’m blessed to live on a large farm & have the means to do what I love but if I didn’t have the land or the money then I would have to stop no doubt about it otherwise I could not offer my dogs what they truely deserve.
We can never really move forward as dog breeders when money, fame & ribbons become more important than breeding a functional healthy of body & mind dog that is able to be as good a pet & companion as a show or breeding dog because at the end of the day only a very small % become show & breeding dogs & even then it’s only for a small part of the dogs life & then what??
You are both quite correct. However like Retrieverman states get personal, and I will get damn straight personal. Best to leave sleeping dogs and babies lie. Kathy
Hi Kate!
Allow me to use your comment as a soap box.
I think a registry should register every dog, no matter whether they will ever breed or not. I also think the registry should track all births, vaccinations, health clearances, genetic tests, spays and neuters and all deaths for whatever reason (including culling) and record them on each dog’s registry. It should record all out crosses, accidental or not. All cross breeds and all unregistered pups of formerly registered animals should be included. All mutts.
Then, a dog registry would be more than a racist outfit, an exclusive blub with every possible eugenics-based reason, a rarefied club of stuck up lords and ladies, which it still is, snobbishly claiming they are the only ethical breeders when their closed registry and twisted ethics are actually destroying the only dogs that are “kosher” to breed any more -the “purebreds”
What with the tightening spay and neuter laws, number of dogs you can keep, where will you just go get a good family dog? The shelters are down to 10% of the numbers of ten years ago.
Breed clubs can still practice closed registries among themselves, if they want, but all the accidental breedings and culls should be recorded. Someday, soon, the genetic tests will be cheap and readily available and the net will be able to handle it. All this information should be kept in the database too.
I know that the hundreds of hours I spent sorting through stud books and learning pedigrees would have been greatly enhanced by knowing what was in the lines I planned to use. As it is, it is hard to determine, if you are not the breeder.
We need a worldwide dog database, including the food dogs of Thailand, when possible, the dingoes, the village dogs, and what better foundation to do this then the AKC, the UKC, the KC, the FCI. the CKC, (not to mention the other CKC and all the other wannabee registries) being terminals for the worldwide data base.
Working dogs can sort out one way and show dogs another, landrace dogs another, but potential buyers and breeder will be able to check what is known about them them as though they were used cars- which are far better tracked than dogs are!!!
Kate Williams recently posted..States crack down on puppy mills- and puppy imports are up
Kate,
I think thats a great idea, I have always said even cross breed & working bred dogs should have a place on the registries as it’s the only way we can really learn whats going on. It would make a lot of sence on many levels to me anyway, although I’m getting worried about all these new rules & restrictions & would hope this would not add to that. I am meant to kennel my breeding dogs of a night now if I want to register my pups with ANKC, well bugger that most of mine sleep in the house or out with the livestock or machinery with access to off the ground beds & shelters(as thats where they prefer to be & the boundries are well fenced)as they would never settle inside too worried about keeping an eye on things. So it dose worry me that we could end up with more silly rules that certainly are not in my dogs best interest & fail to take into account individual breeds needs.
Only other problem I see is some breeders will knock unwanted marked & genetically ill etc pups on the head at birth to avoid having to register & therefore admit they really did happen.
I do agree over all though a world wide data base with pedigrees, genetic testing results, working trail dog results, show dog results etc etc & any complaints or dangerous dog type infomation available to all would be a very vauluable tool in many ways.
Yes Sam I actually believed that what we were doing. Oh well hindsight is always better than foresight. Kathy
But only certain dogs where allowed on the data base, I want all & any dogs to be included.
Hindsight is something I wish we could see as foresight if you know what I mean I would not have come a buster on a few things if only I’d been able to fore see the future….
I choose not not breed very often but I’m very worried soon I will be stopped from breeder at all if some breeders don’t start taking better care in many areas.
boycott this dog show 🙁 check out this other news: http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/2012/02/11/westminster-snobs-snub-shelter-dogs/
Yes! I read that in the NY Times. They had a piece on it. The WKC said they didn’t want people to “think sad thoughts” about the poor shelter dogs. Awww. Boo hoo! Don’t think about what’s WRONG people! Stay the sheeple you are!
Also notice the new ads have no mongrels. At least there were one or two in the old Pedigree ads. There was also a Dogs Against Romney protest outside of MSG during the show. WOO HOO! Hilarious and at least it is about not tolerating cruelty!
Would love some papers to catch wind of THIS atrocity as well.
I always liked those commercials. Much better than the ones they have on Animal Planet – everyone in my family changes the channel when those come on!
The best Pedigree one by far was when they had dog back for a second time, showing him happy and well-cared-for in his new home. Very nice portrayal of a shelter dog as a potential wonderful pet, not a pitiful victim.
Yeah! Ohhhhh, he was a cute whitish collie-mix-looker. Right? I loved that one too!
Not good enough for the AKC I guess. I also loved David Duchovny as the narrator. Always had a crush on him.
THANKS AKC! You ruin dogs AND you take away my man. You suck!
Yes, they are a laugh until you actually visit one. Kathy
Good grief, if we all go out and get dogs from shelters where are pure bred dog breeders going to dump their “pet quality” (as opposed to “show quality”) puppies?
That’s what dropping the Pedigree ads is all about. The AKC is struggling for registrations, so why would one expect them to promote dogs that can’t be AKC registered.
But mixed breeds can be registered, and compete in agility, obedience and rally. If AKC was smart, they’d exploit this new income source more than they have been. Accepting mixes was supposed to bring in more money, but whomever is in charge of their PR campaign really dropped the ball.
I agree that that the AKC needs to put a little energy into performance events. I compete in AKC performance events with my rescue Border Collie and German Shepherds. The AKC has done little to make performance events, especially obedience, accessible and enjoyable to the average person. Performance events are the red-haired step child at dog shows, shuttled off in a corner.
I wish they’d televise them. When people think “dog show” they think conformation, period. Why doesn’t Animal Planet show flyball, herding, or agility, or any of the other fun dog events?
Nah, it’s Finding Bigfoot and six solid hours of Animal Cops.
As much as I love training obedience, I have to admit that watching obedience can be like watching paint dry.
The thing about obedience is that you really feel one with the dog in a way that no other venue offers.
lol, that’s why I said flyball and agility 🙂
I love obedience, it’s my favorite sport. I’d like to see a tv show that covers all sorts of activities – hunting trials, drafting, lure coursing, ring sport – in an interesting way. With some clever editing, even earthdog could be made spectator-friendly.
I agree! I’ll watch!!
“I’d like to see a tv show that covers all sorts of activities – hunting trials, drafting, lure coursing, ring sport – in an interesting way. With some clever editing, even earthdog could be made spectator-friendly.”
Here in Canada, the OLN channel [or whatever it’s called now] has [had] a show called “Top Dogs”, which had everything from agility to mushing to police dog demos to herding.
Link.
Here here!
MISSING THE POINT
Comments here and on other forum which make these claims are missing the point:
– The Judge didn’t know the dog’s breeding
– The Show committee didn’t know
– The Judge, the Show, the AKC is in no position to do anything
The fault here lies predominantly with the breeders who made the decision to inbreed on a popular sire and to inbreed on merle knowing full well the consequences that might have happened should they do so.
Consequences that DID happen.
And despite all of the horrible things wrong with this dog, the least of which is his poor conformation, movement, structure, etc. is that he has already been vaulted to a hugely popular sire. This is scandalous and every single breeder who used him, knowing these issues, is to blame.
But none of those people were on show at the largest and most vaunted venue. Just the dog’s offspring. The ILL GOTTEN GAINS of the conspiracy to exploit a dog for the sake of ribbons.
This is the biggest US show, period, and there is a ton of external benefit from winning at Westminster that has nothing specifically to do with the Judge, the WKC, or the AKC.
Point being, this dog is fruit of the corrupt vine and despite writing about this dog, his progeny, his breeders, and OTHER double merle issues for over a YEAR now, this has only gone viral because of the connection to Westminster.
No judge is going to lose his job, WKC will go on next year, but the huge public shaming of this dog, his breeder and the ethics they lack WILL change things.
If you want to bitch that it’s not fair that I bring this up in context with the Westminster show, I’ll simply point out, where the HELL were you a year ago?
See, that’s right. This show is important, it has publicity importance, it is the most watched show in the country. And you didn’t know crap about this issue until THAT connection brought this issue to your eyes.
So yeah, way to miss the point.
If the WKC doesn’t want this shame, if the judge doesn’t want this shame, if the progeny of this double merle dog don’t want the shame, they need to speak up and get their house cleaned.
This looks bad for ALL of them, no matter whose foot you want to place the blame at. I’d be remiss not to raise this issue now that this dog has reached such heights.
And the results tell the truth. This blog gets 1,500 hits on a normal day spread over ALL my hundreds of posts. This one post got 8,200 hits on Monday and 25,000 on Tuesday.
I the WKC doesn’t want the bad press, they should use their weight to push reform with the AKC. If the AKC doesn’t want bad press, they need to strong arm the breed clubs, and if the breed clubs don’t want bad press, they need to pass bylaws that prevent cruelty like this.
Change here must flow downhill and if they are willing to place ribbons on these dogs, they better be willing to place some criticism too.
Here’s another gem from a DOL forum copied & pasted below
There is no indication whatsoever that colour matters. Probably the matings were done because a better dog was hoped for, and it appears that was successful. Why blame “colour” when you have no proof.
Nothing wrong with a bit of tight inbreeding. That is how lines and types have always been set. I have a dog with 1 grandparent. Proof is in the pudding – he is old now, in good health, with healthy offspring. I have another which is the product of half brother half sister matings as far back as the pedigree goes. One of the best dogs I’ve owned. IMHO, COI is not as important as the judgment of knowledgable breeders, and once their right to choose is removed, purebred dogs will go down the dunny.
And I don’t think colour matters at all. I think the judge chose what he/she thought were the best dogs on the day. International judges usually have a lot of expertise, and I don’t think 2nd rate judges would be chosen for Westminster. In fact, judging by results in the breeds I follow, judging was quite even – as I am sure it was in the collies.
I just can’t get my head around such denial. gee some of these exsperianced breeders must be second only to god, lol….
As a UK Show/Breeder I must admit to being horrified to the statement that a blind/deaf blue rough collie is a top stud dog in America, but as I do not know this particular Breeder I cannot comment on individuals. I will however, state that as a Judge in the UK myself, I personally DO NOT know all the dogs that are shown under myself or all the owners, of course I do know and I am aware of many, but nevertheless when Judging I Judge to the UK Breed Standard and not to fashion or popularity, or who is at the ‘other’ end of the lead and would personally never let this influence my placings. Not knowing the Judge concerned I would not know whether the Judge knew the history of the dog that has just won Westminster. When registering puppies it is up to the Breeder to decide which puppies should or should not be registered and I find it unethical as a UK Breeder that a Breeder in any country would register a Blind/Deaf puppy. I do not agree with culling puppies at birth unless they have a condition that is detremental to the welfare of that particular dog and certainly not to cull for colour. I do not see how the Collie Club of America would be able to tell from a litter registration application that a singleton puppy is blind/deaf, like I said, this is down to the Breeder of a dog to decide and in my opinion a dog that is deaf/blind should not be registered but kept by the Breeder as a pet (as they are responsible for bringing the puppy into the world) or placed in an acceptable loving permanent home with full knowledge of the condition given to the new owner. In the UK, we do not normally breed Merle/Merle unless the Breeder is EXTREMELY knowledgable and is willing to take the consequences and it is not heard of hardly ever at all. I myself have a blue merle dog along with my tri’s and sables but would never contemplate a Merle/Merle mating. Also in the UK the Kennel Club has a in-breeding co-efficient system whereby dogs that are too closely related WILL NOT be registered by the Kennel Club and as responsible Breeders we are working toward improving the Health of our much loved Breed with testing. It does sadden me that any Breeder play ‘God’ with a Breed and feel that it is acceptable to Breed on with a dog that is not ‘fit for function’ and a dog that is both blind and deaf would not be able to do a days work and therefore is not fit for function.
Cathy, I try to be fair to everyone and I was willing to read and consider all you said, but when I came across one particular piece of verbage, you lost me.
“we do not normally breed Merle/Merle unless the Breeder is EXTREMELY knowledgable and is willing to take the consequences”
No one is knowledgeable enough to magically wipe out the odds of what can happen to pups in such breedings, and it’s the DOGS that truly have to live with these consequences. They may not have the ability to think about it in the abstract, but as the so-called cognitively superior animal, that means we have all the more responsibility to not take stupid chances.
I agree that no one should take ‘stupid chances’, and I do not agree that Blue/Blue matings should occur, what I meant by saying that the Breeder should be prepared to live with the consequences is that the Breeder if they take a chance with such a combination should be prepared to raise and live with these pups for the whole of the pups lives in the way that any dog should be loved and cherished. And being as though I am English, what does verbage mean, not heard of that word or are you insinuating that I am spouting verbal garbage. I personally know very experienced breeders in the UK who are very knowledgable or do you just hate all Breeders full stop? No need to make personal attacks on people, every mating you cannot guarantee results and I have said I do not agree with using blind/deaf dogs in mating programmes nor do I agree with blue/blue matings but you dont have to have a pop at everyone whose comments are not exactly the same as yours.
Cathy you are getting defensive right after you ask what I mean by “verbage” and then you go on to conclude I meant “verbal garbage” and then some. No, that was slang of another sort. I take a bit of poetic license at times as long as I am not using scientific jargon/terminology, and so on.
I guess it’s a cultural difference.
Having said that, you are re-explaining yourself but you still keep saying “If someone decides to take the chance” in so many words, or nearly exactly those words. I’m glad you personally don’t breed this way but by continuing to say “IF” someone does it, then it’s to some degree acceptable to you. There is nothing wrong with saying “Don’t do it! It’s WRONG!”
I belive in freedom as so many Americans do. But I draw the line at cruelty. THis is cruelty!
Saying “you cannot guarantee results” with every mating is also a phrase used to absolve onesself from responsibility for what goes on around them, in their dog set. I don’t hate ALL breeders but it seems the few that I have met who admit shows are all about politics, money, and who know dogs are in genetic trouble, don’t quite have it in them to stand up for DOGS! They are in the sport and it has never dawned on them to say “stop the eugenics for looks or ribbons!” or leave.
It’s sort of an adult form of peer pressure. And what’s worse is that it is sooo unnecessary. Dog shows are not necessary! Breed for performance, health, temperament, function. If it’s about just DOING something with dogs, there are a zillion other ways to do it, if you really stop to think about it. Why does it have to be the ring?
Ring sport is like show logic. Circular and it goes nowhere.
Yes, I will defend Dog Showing. You obviously do not show dogs and by what you write it would appear that you do not Breed either, so how would you know what Breeders do or not do when they plan a litter? How would you know anything about Dog Showing? I show my dogs because they ENJOY going to the shows and I enjoy the social aspect, dog showing is a hobby. You CANNOT show a dog that does not enjoy showing and if you did show dogs you would know this. Dog Shows are a platform to promote HEALTHY DOGS and if you have a Judge that Judge’s to the Breed Standard then that is what the outcome should be, the Dog on the Day that is closest to the Breed Standard should win and that INCLUDES temperament, health and confirmation. As for your comment that showing is about MONEY that is laughable. Maybe it is different in the USA but here there is no MONEY in dog showing, and believe me, there is NO MONEY in raising a litter of puppies if it is done correctly! Speaking for myself as I will not personally comment on others, all MY puppies leave home fully vaccinated, eye checked and microchipped and raised in my family home on the best food and I am very particular where my pups go to live for the remainder of their lives, I only breed for MYSELF initially but cannot keep every puppy in the litter and I spend large amounts of money raising my pups to the best of my ability and the money I sell the pups for, believe me, does not cover what I spend! As for me saying ‘you cannot gaurantee results with every mating’, you cannot guarantee results in any mating, every time I breed a litter I try to improve on the Sire and Dam that I have spent a long time researching backgrounds on health, confirmation and temperament but you cannot guarantee what will happen during the pregnancy or birth or in the whelping box the same as you cannot guarantee that every human child that is born is going to be 100% healthy. No, I dont agree with breeding from a deaf/blind dog at all and I never will and was shocked to hear that this has been done in any country but you seem to have forgotten that. Dog shows may not be a ‘necessity’ but then neither is any other dog activity that people CHOOSE to persue, Dog Shows are supposed to be a HOBBY and people that say they are cruel seriously do NOT know what they are talking about, the Dogs enjoy the day out and are extremely well cared for so dont slate what you dont personally know anything about.
I agree. I have a beautiful boy who just shuts down in the ring. So he remains my wonderful pet, even though I would love for him to show. And it is the same in the US. I breed very selectively and I make no money on any of my litters. I am lucky if I break even. But that is never my concern. Improving on the sire and dam is my goal, and creating the next generation of beautiful collies.
This improving upon the sire & dam talk gets to me at times as some breeders are so set on “improving” a bloodline a whole breed become unreconizable to the people who origanly founded it for a purpose not just as a piece of art to take out & show off of a weekend.
Yeah sure I look at any mating as a way to try & fix undiserable traits & to further set & maybe improve upon the good traits of the dogs I’m mating but for me thats more about health & function not just type.
For me the list starts with health, function,breed temperment, work ability, drive, work ethic & type only cames after that. Colour should matter very little as it dose nothing to improve a dogs temperment or work abilities unless it’s to aviod a certain colour for health reasons of course.
My own dogs are proof of this as golds are my fave colour in TM’s but yet since my old boy passed I have a kennel full of blacks & black & tans as I refuse to buy or breed based on colour alone.
I know many dogs who hate showing but are still taken untill they at least get pointed, generally the owner aims for small country shows though.
By the way Sam, I do not breed for colour, I breed for health, temperament and correct comfirmation and if I have a dog for example with prick or light ears, I will put to a sire that has heavier ears. If I have a MDR1 status +/- dog that is worthy of being bred from then I put with a MDR1 +/+ to improve but dont get me wrong, I do not take just one apsect of dogs to improve on, I look at the whole picture to improve for the future. I have all fit, healthy and happy dogs in my home and I dont have loads of them either. You say you breed and used to show, if I did not show I would not breed as I do not breed just to sell puppies to the general public.
“You say you breed and used to show, if I did not show I would not breed as I do not breed just to sell puppies to the general public.”
Why. I take exception to the implication of the word ‘just’ in that comment. A bit snarky there. What is wrong with the general public wanting to purchase a healthy well bred and raised puppy and a breeder willing to provide those? Seems a dambed fine reason to breed in my eyes.
Kary
The general public wants a healthy, well-tempered puppy and there is nothing dishonorable about breeding for that!!! I think the tide is turning rapidly as far as the thinking on this issue…thankfully.
I was refering to myself and I do not breed just to sell to the public, I breed for myself first and foremost and what is wrong with that? There is nothing wrong with the general public wanting to purchase a healthy well bred and well raised puppy and before I bred dogs myself, I would hunt for months for exactly that but what I will say is that I am proud to offer well bred, well raised healthy puppies that I am confident will live long and happy lives with their new families and the proof is out there, but if I personally had not been showing dogs, I would not be as knowledgeable about the Breed, the Genetics, the Health Issues and I would not have bred any dogs myself but would have bought from others and believe me, there are alot of unethical people out there that do NOT show their dogs and I am not saying that everyone who does not show is the same but there are alot.
Cathy, there are also unethical people who DO show or we would not be having this discussion…
Oh here we go you should ONLY breed if you show, get a life. I don NOT believe showing has ANYTHING to do with respondsible breeding.
I don’t breed to just sell either I breed for ME. I do have HEAPS of dogs because I can I have the property to give my dogs a wonderful lifestyle & the means to support them. Most of my dogs are not breeding dogs they are rescues of some other breeders mess.
I have 2 entire TM breeding bitches & have produced 1 tM litter in the last 10 yrs hardly breeding for profit.
I always welcome back any dog/pup I breed ALWAYS no matter what! I do not take risks on a breeds health just to produce a falshy marked & coloured dog either!
I was talking about MYSELF, no need to get so defensive as you said in an earlier post. I didnt start breeding dogs until I had shown for quite a few years, so no, I dont breed just to sell to the public, I breed for myself first and foremost but I cant keep them all and luckily, because I have puppies that are of excellent quality and health, I can offer the ones I dont keep to the public with pride and knowing that they are fit and healthy and bred fit for function. I always sell my puppies with a contract of sale so that if the new owner cannot keep their dog no matter how old then they are always welcome back here.
Yeah that did sound to me like you should only breed if you show. So all those folks breeding for working dogs that are not Kennel Club breeds are unethical?
All those dogs bred for herding, police work, only field hunting, that have to REALLY move… by following cattle herds for hours on end, running through to the perp, traversing miles upon miles of woodlands or across desert to catch a rabbit.., are bred less ethically than those bred to trotting for two minutes in a ring? Or for 20 seconds after a stupid plastic bag on a wire?
Seems to me the “standards” of dogs shows are really quite low.
Tell me your secret Sam! I need to find a way to get a house and property so I can welcome more deserving dogs to my home!
Urban Collie,
I wish I could say my secert was working hard & deserving it but I can not, I’m blessed to apart of a large family of mainly dirt farmers who allow me my passion. My stepfather is very progressive thinking & lets me run what livestock he dose have in an organic manner. I’m nearing 40 yrs old & still live on my parents property so to some would be a failure really but it allows me to keep my dogs & have the lifestyle I enjoy. I don’t handle living in town & tend to be better equiped to comminucate with my animals & my family can see this so welcomed him home as an adult with open arms. So I’m just lucky really but I try very hard to pass what luck I have down the line by taking in as many animals that need me as possible as well as my own dogs. I don’t take in as many as I would like to as I do tend to take on the hard cases temperment wise & they just take up too much time to have more than 2 in need of re training at any 1 time.
At present I have an TM male who came to me becuse his owner died & the owners partner could not cope. He has been my biggest challange yet, he arrive with an entire TM bitch who they where trying to mate. He is the pruduct of a 1/2 brother sister mating & she has the same grandsire who apears twice on his pedigree as his grandsire so thank goodnes they never mated as he also has a badly shot jaw, narrow chest & is not of a stable temperment. He has killed livestock, killed another dog(not whilst under my care) & had no idea how to even walk on a lead when they got here. I may have to admitt defeat & he will live out his life here as a desxed & very time consuming pet as he will never be trust worthy as he knows his capabilities & tries to use them anytime he becomes over stressed or stimulated. I have another failure Tori she was imported from wales to be a breed & show dog but she was banished to the kennel run when that did not pan out & destroyed all her teeth & muzzle trying to escape. It toke many years but now she dose not try & attack any male vister or family member she sees. They are only failurse in that they where meant to move on once rehabiliated but both hold emotional scars that just wont allow them to be safe dependable pets. TM’s never forget!
Cathy, if you breed an MDR1 Pos/Pos to a Pos/Neg, that’s great for the immediate offspring, but you’ve unleashed a recessive for the trait into the world. The only way to be sure another recessive never breeds with one of them would be a spay/neuter contract for all the offspring you did not keep, or give to other breeders who would then DEFINITELY have to use only pos/pos mates.
And that’s trusting that everyone will follow the rules, even though you did something you shouldn’t have. Why not just NOT breed a pos/neg?! What is so worthy of a collie as to ignore this?
UCC, MDR1 is very widespread in collies–the majority of collies are either carriers or affected. If we eliminated from breeding every dog that was a carrier of every genetic problem, the collie gene pool would shrink dramatically, which would be a terrible thing from a genetic diversity standpoint. MDR1 status is just one factor to consider in making breeding decisions, in my opinion!
If you poke around the internet you will see some collie breeders who breed for CEA normal eyes only–these dogs are often rife with other health problems such a demodex, hip dysplasia, bloat, etc. I feel that these people are doing the breed a disservice by failing to breed for the whole collie!
I think sometimes we have to use carriers but all offspring should be tested & any carriers de sexed in the magority of cases. We should not breed carrier to carrier & imho an affected individual should never be breed & if possible avoid carriers altogether although in some breeds this is near impossible & your left picking the least harmful nasty if you know what I mean. If we all worked hard to eleminate certain health affecting genes in individual breeds it can happen but not overnight & it dose not nesscaryly mean never using carriers.
I think thats correct but would love to hear from others if they think my thinking on this is flawed as I’m always looking to better my ideas & thoughts & know I may know the hands on stuff but some of the genetics is still being digested.
KATE, you seem to not have a reply button after a couple of days since the post so I am replying to myself.
I see your point. And that’s a tough one. I do recall the Wash State U site saying the prevalence of the recessive is over 50% for collies. But can’t at least fewer carriers be used? Can there be, is there, a registry or log where you can see the # of carriers bred each year, and have there be a limit of carriers used per year? Can the gene be weeded out gradually?
What is the total population of collies and how would that affect genetic diversity?
I think I read that something like 70% of collies have at least one mutated gene. I have four collies at the moment–one is m/m, two are m/n, and one is n/n. I do think it is something that can be gradually bred away from. If you are breeding litters where no pups are m/m, that is a huge step forward. Dogs with only one bad copy of the gene are not going to have the severe drug reactions. On the other hand, unlike some genetic issues, MDR1 need not have any bad effect on a dog, shorten its lifespan, or cause it any ill health effects–as long as owners and vets are aware of a dog’s MDR1 status, they can avoid giving the dog certain drugs and the dog is fine. And for that reason, I think it is OK to breed away from it slowly compared to some other genetic diseases.
Some lines of collies are prone to generalized demodectic mange, however, which is best treated with Ivermectin–those breeders would be wise to try to breed MDR1 normal dogs. LOL!
I think this is becoming a problem in many breeds we have no chose but to go with the the carrier of the least harmful of issues & only breed to a non carrier. But if enough people where dedicated we could change that within a 10 year period of thoughful breedings & taking full use of any genetic testing available to us.
Kate: “I think I read that something like 70% of collies have at least one mutated gene.”
“Recent data from the 1,000 genomes project revealed that humans carry, on average, between 250 and 300 recessive mutations and at least 50 mutations previously associated with inherited disorders, and it seems reasonable to assume the average dog will carry the same burden of disease-associated variants (Durbin et al. 2010). Expecting breeding dogs to be clear of all risk alleles, therefore, is unrealistic and will severely jeopardise breed diversity.”
From: DNA testing and domestic dogs, Cathryn Mellersh.
Jess recently posted..Pass the Ammo
Re: MDR1
It comes down to choosing your battles. MDR1 testing was only recently available – before that, nobody knew why collies were sensitive to some medications, only that it was not OK to give them ivermectin.
MDR1 is fairly benign. It doesn’t cause early death or disability, just requires some knowledge and care on the part of the owner. awca.net even has printable forms for people to take to their veterinarians.
To eliminate all carriers would be foolish; it’s just one more thing to keep in mind when breeding. If you eliminated all CEA carriers and MDR1 mutant/mutant dogs, you’d be left with a genetic bottleneck of epic proportions.
The DNA testing is a good way to keep carriers *in* the genepool. PRA and Gray Collie, for instance – in the old days, you’d have to “test breed” to see if a dog was a PRA carrier, or just junk the entire bloodline. Gray Collie was just not mentioned (since the puppies didn’t survive long, it was easy to ignore). Good dogs who happen to have a couple of less-than-desirable recessive genes are still good dogs.
Jess, that’s a lot of recessives for humans or so it sounds like, but how many alleles in total does the human have, and there are so many more choices for humans when we become adults and choose mates. And there is no tendency for tons of females to mate with the same “Winning” male, or Obama would be sending palimony to a LOT of women!
;D In short, what are the odds of the same recessives to come together in people? Not nearly the same as it is for purebred dogs.
It’s the way we breed dogs that affects the outcome today.
Kate, demodectic mange is prevalent in some lines? Wow. I learned something today. Is that for adult collies? That’s scary if true. Demodex outbreaks in adult dogs is presumed to be related to an immune system issue. If it’s in LINES then I would think some weaknesses are being passed in the immune systems.
Has anyone done any testing to see what this may be linked to?
I think demodex has a similar cause to many other health problems that are rapidly increasing in purebred dogs (Addison’s, Cushings, other skin conditions, thyroid issues, cancers)–reduced genetic diversity means a reduced ability to fight off disease…in my opinion the best way to handle these types of problems is to outcross (either within the breed or outside it depending on the breed)! What I can’t figure out is whether breeding any two AKC collies together is ever really an outcross, lol. I know if you go back far enough, they’re all related… 🙂
UCC-
Dogs have approximately 20,000 genes in their genome. Humans have around 30,000 genes. Roundworms have around 20,000 genes.
Dog breeders have a very simplistic view of genetics, limited to what they can see: physical traits, and physical illness. Inbreeding populations of humans have greater rates of disease than outbreeding populations. This isn’t rocket science.
Certain DLA haplotypes have been implicated in demodex in other breeds: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20331837
Jess recently posted..Pass the Ammo
Jess, the genome of roundworms does not suprise me. I did not have the exact # of genes memorized at this time. However, in school we studied Ascaris ( roundworms) and learned that it was frequently used for lab experiements because of that #.
Of course, it’s not the total # of genes a species has, but the ones turned off or on and the nucleotide sequence as well.
Jess, and no, it isn’t rocket science. Wasn’t sure how you meant to come across, but never said it was.
Sure, inbreeding in humans brings out more recessives. Merely saying it’s easier for humans to avoid doing that to themselves in the first place, because of sheer numbers in the world and because of how their mating choices are made, compared to purebred show dogs who have their choices made FOR them.
I think Jess just meant that it is pretty obvious scientifically speaking that inbreeding is bad for the health of any species, but that a lot of dog breeders fail to grasp this simple fact.
Okay then. Sorry if I misunderstood Jess!!!
And why am I not seeing REPLY buttons anymore?
There is a limit of 10 nested comments before the reply button goes away. This is the max wordpress allows so that formatting doesn’t get wonky (most replies are nested with indents, so if you keep allowing replies they end up smushed off to the right side of the screen).
Thanks Chris. Hadn’t known that. I tried a Wpress blog for a bit and found all the rules frustrating. And if I posted a help Q to forum it got buried under a zillion other Qs in no time! Not easy to dig out your own Q either! Hated it! Glad you do so well with it.
Cathy,
I do breed & I used to show so I do know a bit about the subject.
The problem with your reasoning as I see it in my opinion is that dog showing is far more than just a hobby to many who breed & show their offspring. Winning is thier goal & often at any price & the dogs pay the ulitmate price more often than not. Yes there is no money in it for your average breeder especially if ethics & your dogs & it’s offsprings lifestyle & welfare are high on your list but when exsporting overseas, re homing non breeders or retired breeders & running your kennel as a buissenes I know quite a few who deffiantly make money out of it. These breeders show as a form of advertising their bloodlines so they can then put huge price tage on their litters & don’t show for the love of it at all. There are breeders who will openly tell you so.
In my eyes all dog shows do is encourage smaller gene pools as everyone flocks to breed to the lastest big winner. If they demanded genetic health tsting on all show dogs & only those who pass their testing where allowed to compete then maybe I would not feel so strongly. But they don’t they even allow dogs to compete after surgery to fix entropia, slipping kness etc etc etc….
They are picking the dog thet has the most eye appeal to them on the day & so what if that particular dog is a genetic mess that carries lethal genes, has no chance of actually for filling the breeds origanal purpose & can hardley function as a natural normal dog out side the ring. The saddest part is that the show & judge have just promoted that individual dog to the masses & because he/she is pretty is not a good enough reason for any dog to be apart of a breeding programe in my eyes. Shows oftem promote extreme types also which is another problem as we end up with dogs that are totally unfuctional in a normal pet home enviroment.
Showing actually goes against some breeds natural temperments so therefore the dogs that are actually of a poor quality work ability & temperment wise will become the champions etc not the dog that is full of natural ability, drive & has the correct temperement & type to actually function daily in a natural enviroment working at what the breed was origanally breed to do. Where is the good in any of that?
I’m sorry I just don’t see it, sure if it was just an enjoyable hobby that people didn’t plan & centre thier breeding programes around it would not be so harmful but the facts are it is not just a hobby for many & breeding programes are centred around what bloodlines are winning & what bloodlines are not winning with no thought put to work ability, function & no where near enough thought put into the long term outcomes of narowing pedigrees & breeding for extreme types.
Sorry for my spelling & grammer I know animals not the written word.
Sam, I think then perhaps the ethics of breeding in the USA are completely different to the ethics in the UK, or maybe for some Breeders but that is definatley not the case for all and we should not all be tarred with the same brush. In the UK we are working to expand the gene pool, hence the in-breeding co-efficiency data that the UK Kennel Club collects, if two dogs are too closely related the UK Kennel Club will NOT register the litter, I for one use this system before even contemplating putting a dog and bitch together along with all the other tests that are available to breed dogs that are fit for function and healthy and I can say that all puppies that leave my home I am genuinly proud of and I know if were living on a croft in the Scottish Hills working sheep would be able to stand the harsh weather and the long days work and be happy at the days end and healthy. It saddens me that there are some that breed as you state above, but not everyone is the same and please let me defend the UK Breeders, not everyone is the same I know and there are people in every country that will try and make a quick buck ie puppy farmers as we call them in the UK but these evil people do NOT show their dogs over here as that is not what they are interested in and would eat into their profits too much. I can hand on heart say that in the UK MOST exhibitors do try and breed the best they can, not for money, you will see that most dogs entered for CRUFTS and all Open or Championship shows in the Rough Collie Breed are shown by their owners as we do still treat dog showing as a hobby and one that the dogs do enjoy, if for one moment my dogs did not enjoy what they do then I would NOT show them. I have one gorgeous dog at home that loves life but does not enjoy the show ring so he does not go along but the rest love it, they love the day out. One bitch I had I would say the word ‘bath’ to her and she would bolt upstairs and stand by the bath waiting for me to bath her, she loved to be groomed and knew that she would be at a show the next day, if she didnt go along with the rest on show day she would howl, she would be happy all day long at the show and win or lose it never mattered (and she did win well), we had a good day out spending quality time together, so please see this from my perspective, Dog Showing is my hobby, I personally breed occassionally to produce quality puppies that I can continue in the show ring with enjoying quality time with my dogs and I Judge to the Breed Standard as written by the UK Kennel Club. In the UK any dog that has had surgery to improve ‘looks or confirmation’ is reported by the Veterinary Surgeon who performs the task to the Kennel Club and from then on have to have a ‘permission to show’ letter from the Kennel Club otherwise they are not allowed to show their dogs any longer. These letters are only given for dogs that have undergone surgery that is totally necessary (ie hysterectomy after pyometra) but would not be issued for a dog that has a confirmation malformation to improve it’s chances in the Breed ring of a dog show. I know in the world that some breed to fashion but it is down to Judges in the Show Ring to penalise dogs that do not comform to the Breed Standard on confirmation, temperament and movement as a dog that cannot move correctly cannot be of correct conformation and there are Judges out there that perhaps do not inerpret the Breed Standard maybe the same and this disheartens me as well but if people like myself did not show or Judge then in my opinion the Breeders and Judges that are not so bothered would continue and then where would that leave the Breed? To the puppy farmers to supply demand to the pet market? In my opinion all Kennel Clubs should crack down on health issues, and in the UK this is happening but is a long process, you cannot undo what has been practiced for years overnight, many years ago when health testing was not available is when things went wrong for many breeds and there are breeds that have worse health issues than the Rough Collie. I personally think that all offspring from dogs that are born deaf/blind should NOT be allowed to be registered and yes, the Kennel Clubs should be allowed to police this to more effect for the betterment of all breeds. On a personal note, my opinion is that anyone using a blind/deaf dog for breeding purpose (unless it was blinded by an accident) should be banned from breeding and all puppies from said dogs(s) should have their Kennel Club papers revoked and all awards stripped but who am I? Just a UK Show/Breeder whose opinion does not count probably.
Sorry, but I’ll only be convinced that conformation show people are concerned with “betterment of the breed” when something, anything other than appearance is necessary for a conformation title. If “champion” means suitable for breeding, then health certifications for diseases associated with the breed and a performance title should be required to be a “champion”.
speaking for myself, conformation is not just about appearance, it is not who has the ‘prettiest’ dog on the end of the lead, it is about the dog that can move, that can cover the ground with ease, that when you see it moving away from you the dog has power, if a dog is not built correctly then it cannot move correctly and that is where the conformation comes in. The head is supposed to be correct and not too deep through, with parallel planes and with a ‘slight but perceptible stop’, it is a regal looking dog and not one that is supposed to be pretty. I dont agree that all ‘Champions’ are the best of the Breed, in any Breed, but they may have been the best that was presented to the Judge on that particular day. I know of Judges that have withheld our Challenge Certificates in the UK as they have felt that there was not anything presented on the day that warranted the accolade and I take my hat off to them. There are ALOT of dogs out there, better than some of the Champions that have missed out on the title of Champion when they should have it, but that doesnt mean that you cannot use the dog at Stud or the bitch to produce a litter. I do show and I do try to breed for ‘the betterment of the breed’ and my dogs all have health certificates at appropriate ages, including ones that are not compulsory.
I’m not an americian but australian.
Yes UK is doing more than america at this point but I still think the whole system is flawed.
People are breeding based on show wins not performance & thats the biggest proble.
I’m not interested in pretty I’m interested in a dogs working ability.
I know nothing about what happens in your country but do know for A FACT dogs are shown here after eye ops to fix a genetic issue. It should not happen in my opinion.
I’m glad to hear not everyone is into extreme type. But I feel the extreme typed dogs are winning too often these days.
Not everyone breeds to the biggest winning show dogs, this is what I keep saying, dont tar everyone with the same brush. The ‘fashion’ in Europe is for a Rough Collie that has a deep stop but mine dont and I could list a whole load of other faults that dont conform to the Breed Standard. I have been in the ring before now and heard other exhibitor/judges stating that it is not right that people should breed ‘old fshioned’ collies but that they should move with the times, I didnt know the Breed Standard had been changed THAT much. However, if no one bred and showed the more classic collie then they would become a thing of the past and Dog Shows are a platform for showing the public what a particular breed is like, If everyone bred to trend and to the most ‘popular’ dog then in my opinion the Breed would change and be unrecognisable. No, I dont agree with ‘pretty’ collies, I prefer the regal elegence that a rough collie should be and that can do a good days work, so quite honestly I think we are on the same wavelenght but our differences are that I do agree with Dog Showing, I have been at Championship shows before and heard spectators saying ‘why are they putting up the dogs that dont look like Lassie and the ones that do are not being placed’, but if we were not there, then what? I dont agree with anyone who plays God and I dont agree that a dog that is blind/deaf should be bred with, after all, if he had been born in the wild he would not have survived.
Cathy, I think people are people everywhere and some have morals, principle values some are just abstract, some are conservative…and scary are the Radicals, and Extremist.
Sam you are so correct. Some of us call all this eye candy.
Competitive dog showing is destroying dogs.
On what planet would a dog with as many obvious deformities as Malachy the Peke get feted as great example of his breed?
Dog showing is about a theology. It’s not based upon facts.
Every thing that is said about dog shows is demonstrably false, and one can easily prove it with a simple look at the scientific literature.
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That Peke is just alround sad, how can anyone serously say it’s OK for bowed legs, dwarfism, flat skulls, bulging eyes, squashed airawys & a waddle instead of a walk to serously be desirable traits to breed for in any breed.
To place such a deformed breed as the best example of every single dog there over vthe 2 days just says it all to me about how much they really care about dog welfare & health.
Seems they are selfish and self centered would you not describe with no value to anyone or any living species of this earth but thier own goals and issues.
thought this was about Rough Collies not Pugs or other breeds? Dont state that my comments on Dog Showing are false. I speak from a personal point of view so I know my facts that refer to me and the way I treat my hobby are true.
The ethical breeding issues surrounding Rough Collies also affect other breeds, like pugs.
And there is such a thing as personal bias. And different people having different experiences.
Cathy, no I don’t show or breed but I could if I wanted to. I could put myself in debt on purpose for a non-essential sport and then cry about it.
I’ve hung around enough show breeders and listened to them to get an informed opinion on how they do what they do, and why they do it. A lot of them are scary and you don’t have to do it yourself to understand. Have you ever heard the saying “You can’t see the forest through the trees?” If anything, sometimes you can have your best epiphanies when you step back from what you are doing for awhile.
In cell biology class I had an orthodox jewish female lab partner. She was very cool. We had laughs in every class. Then one day out of the blue, she casually mentioned her superiority as a race. She actually said “Well, naturally we jews are better than you as we are chosen. You know.”
My jaw dropped. The girl was so brainwashed by her beliefs, she did not see what was inherently wrong in what she was saying/doing. I then learned she was studying to be a genetic counselor with the intent of helping jewish couples mark their lineage, so they could see what the odds were of having children with deformities. THese were among the sects that refuse to associate with the outside world, which made me wonder how the girl in class would even speak to me, but I never bothered to ask.
I am not a strict jew, and not even religious for that matter. However, does that mean that what folks who continue to risk inbreeding despite what it does to their CHILDREN, is right? Does it mean that if I said something that I would be so WRONG and have no right to express an opinion on the freaking obvious, simply because I was not one of THEM?
I don’t even have children, but dear, they are a dime a dozen frankly. I saw a mom curse at a 3 year old for acting like a 3 year old. CURSE! She said other horrors like “You disgust me!” If I said something, and the mom replied “Well YOU aren’t a mom! YOU don’t know!”, well, would she be right to curse at her child?
These are serious analogies but the point is, sure, the personal experience is not there but that does not mean you cannot know from observance and reflection what is right and wrong.
Going back a bit, when folks say it’s about money, yes, some folks here do use unhealthy sires for stud fees unethically. Some sell too many litters to get puppy money. They do tests and so on but they sometimes jack up prices a bit depending on the year they’ve had. I’ve had breeders tell me “Anyone who says it’s NOT about the money is lying.”
Now, that was coming from someone who breeds and shows. Someone who “knows”, right? So I guess being in the know doesn’t matter all that much.
Granted I am in the USA. SOmeone here just told me about a trait poorly affecting Groenendaels that was introduced “from Europe.” If I am to not distrust all breeders I have to draw the line somewhere. So I trust her expertise. And I wrote in a response to her that it goes to show, there are good and bad apples everywhere. So defending the “UK” breeders means, what? There are no bad apples your way?
A bit more about the money. It’s about the folks who already HAVE money, perhaps more than those who want to MAKE money. You can’t become a zillionaire in dog breeding but there are folks here who spend hundreds of thousands in campaigns for their dogs, annually. Top handlers can make six figures! I don’t know if THAT is something that happens anywhere other than the USA. My gut feeling is that it doesn’t. So if true, then in that sense, you are right about the UK. On the other hand, lots of WKC contestants fly in from other countries. NoOt cheap eh?
And AGAIN, you may breed well but you said “IF someone choose to…” and I say for the final time, if you can say that, as opposed to fighting for these horrendous choices to end, then on some level, you condone it.
Yes, the most genetically diverse, healthiest of dogs of any breed, or mongrels or what have you do not absolutely guarantee perfect health in every litter. Yes. Okay fine. But to enact the “you cannot guarantee in any litter” statement to as to be purposeful here, seems pointless, since this topic was never about problems with breeding such dogs. So it’s a moot point.
As to you cannot make a dog show, well, some folks DO. I have seen quite a few terriblyl shy Groenendaels forced to endure the ring and the judge handling. And other dogs too. Or, as I think someone else here said, you can simply breed a temperament in that is not meant to be in the breed.
There’s a cool Beauceron breeder in New Jersey who breeds for work only.
Read the fourth paragraph about what is “not possible”, that being, selecting for true work AND the ring.
http://www.herdingbeaucerons.com/Beaucerons.html
Some dog breeds naturally were gentle tempered towards people and even strangers and were workers, but for many other breeds this is just not so.
People tend to do whatever they want and it is all too often overlooked.
An addendum to my post with the jewish girl. Don’t get me wrong. I am not anti semitic. Some of my best friends are jewish and they are as varied as, well, dog breeds and lines.
But what happened was true, and was a story used purely to make a point.
I agree that some people do whatever they want and it is overlooked and I also agree that it should not be. All I have been trying to say is that not everyone is in it for money, it is nice when I have a win as I know it is genuinly about the dog, not who is at the end of the lead, not about how many favours I can do for someone else as for anyone that knows me when I Judge they know that even if I am their best friend that does not mean that I will give their dog top honours. The world is not an ideal world and it would be such a beautiful place if it were, but unfortunately there are unscrupulous people out there that will try and make money and I have heard of the prices that some American and Candian dogs are sold for, there are people that will do what they want and dont care about the consequences and it is an awful shame BUT there are also people out there that DO try their best and they also do go to dog shows with their dogs. These are the people I defend, not the ones that dont give a damn and will breed unhealthy dogs for colour or whatever. There are many in my country that are trying to improve on problems that were bred into our Breed many years ago and we do love our hobby and I just get so fed up when people who do not wholly understand our goal and the pleasure both our dogs and ourselves have at these events start slating it and say that dog shows should be banned. The Dog Shows should not be banned, the people who breed unethically should be banned.
Okay Cathy, I have met some people who are basically nice and all at shows who know damned well what goes on and “do their best” not to be part of that.
But…I have to ask then. WHy dog shows? There are so many ways to be a part of the dog world. Sports competitions, therapy, heck, you could just breed for collie that can really herd again. Most of what kennel clubs trial for is a joke compared to true herding, be it three-sheep trials or taking a huge mob over a hill.
WHy not just screw the KC and breed for THAT? There are folks out there even breeding for the older style collies; the ones that existed before the first dog shows. The roughs that we know today did not even exist before that Victorian “sport” emerged. It is not the old scotch collie. It has no true work history in that sense. It was created to show.
Conformation shows are a relatively new thing in man’s history with dog. You don’t need them to know you have a breed, and you don’t really need to adhere so closely to a “standard” to know you have a dog of the right size, structure, movement, and “type” to do a certain job. People never needed one before. Why now? Maybe too few ranchers and too much free time and disposable income compared to even a century or two ago.
Dog shows are so prominent in society today that when someone wanting a pup hears “find a responsible breeder”, they always get directed to dog shows. THis is the primary source now! And these are the dogs bred with health least in mind. I’m sorry but it’s true. If you care at all about doing your best in the conformation world, you will always have that standard in mind at least as much as, if not more than, crossing relatively genetically diverse animals to others ( I say that knowing about the founder situation – so I do mean “relatively”) that don’t carry damaging recessives or other lousy alleles. It will always mar your judgement.
What stinks now is that the challenges behind outcrossing again to bring some vigour back to breeds, is that with all the inbreeding that has occurred, one would have to be vigil in checking the individuals to be outcrossed to. Of course, we need to be vigil more now than ever with the present day eugenics going on in show dogs, but it could be done.
Forget standards from a KC. Go with a higher standard!
Urban Chick actually never had personal experience AFAIK with Extremist and Radicals of the Jewish faith. My interest in genetics was to discover how to be a better steward of my breed of collie. Breeders play God/Creator if we do not allow them to do natural selection. So if we are to play God in my opinin if we truly love our breed, markers for genetic known problems in the breed should be used. However, I do see that their likely are the mad scientist so to speak. Truly the Devil of humanity and living things.
I have shown dogs, but honestly never again. I had posted a site where J.P Morgan’s four collies 1904 were part of the article from New York’s Metroplian Museum of Arts. These collies from my viewpoint reveal the grassroots of American Collies.
My viewpoint of the collie on the far right represents another possible new research study for Dr. Leigh Clark on modifers of the merle gene…to include the Tweed gene present from American Farm Collies of that decade.
If the rough collies developed for show are “American” – and I would guess they were – when did they take off in the UK?
The “Farm collie” movement is a good direction.
Although I am not fully knowledgeable on the merle breedings, I do know that I has told many many years ago NOT to breed two merles together and I am learning more in the last couple of years of what can happen and it is shameful. I don’t care how much you know about dogs and breeding, this is discusting and a damn shame to subject these innocent animals to this. Those who do so, cannot, in all honesty , claim to love their dogs , it is just a money making adventure.
How sad the green eyed monster strikes again !!!!!!!! Ths collie at Westminster is a breeders dream ” breeder” this is what breeders have been doing since time began, tryiing to produce dogs that fill our eye with beauty, they have mixed breeds and all their ‘faults’ together to produce the dogs we have today, how pathetic that people constantly jump on annything they find to pull the WINNERS down !!!!!!
You seriously think people are horrified at this because they’re *jealous* of the dog? Not because the prospect of purposely breeding, then utilizing a deaf/blind stud dog strikes them as profoundly wrong and unethical?
Breeding is supposed to be about creating better dogs. It used to be about better working dogs – smarter, more sound, and better able to do their job. Good looks were icing on the cake. These days, all we have is a pretty dog, and who cares if there’s any substance or brains under all the show-fluff?
Of course dogs have faults; all dogs have a few faults. A skillful breeder matches dogs in order to minimize faults, not amplify them.
Yes Jana never doubt up on a fault. Quite simple but it works.
Of course there are the classical breeders who know thier is little money to be made in dogs. Just as there are folks who know the real money in dogs is thiers.
Jana the same Classical collie breeders and fanciers who like me are saying…jealous get real to this abstract version of classical art and version of constructional engineering.
AKC in its lay term father status needs to take this position to keep down the bickering in the family business of canine dogs in my opinion. Keeping safe our right to be good stewards of our individual choices of a variety of canines. Just separate into two categories of Ring Conformation Sport. Judges can take their pick which of the two categories Abstract or Classical. All no brainer ideas like jealousy will fall from the labeling of people and maybe we can all get on with Good Stewardship of our dogs in my opinion , and as far as I know. Only thing I can suggest to end these childish viewpoints.
Yeah. I always wanted to have a dog with no eyes, and dammit, all I can afford are these old dogs with two of ’em
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Well, my daughter and I fortunately never had to look at that on a daily basis. However, seen it and did not understand. “you look through a smoky mirror and you know only parts. But when you see no eyes and find out they are bred in specific manners the truth and the questions of Who, What, Where and How? Because inquiring minds want to know how to stop it.
You’re barking up the wrong tree so hard it’s hilarious, Alana. I own working APBTs, what use would I have for a dog that should have been culled or never bred at all? How many blind deaf dogs do you know that can do work? No thanks, I’ll take my seeing hearing healthy dogs
Actually, the winning dog is kinda ugly compared to old style “Lassie” collies – tiny little eyes, overblown coat merle-ugly coat, and door stop head. I can honestly say that the German Shepherd who took the herding group was a more attractive dog, sloping butt and all.
When the camera gave a closeup of the breed winner in the group ring Mon night, I did ask myself “Where ARE his eyes?”
And am I crazy or are Belgian sheepdogs – esp groenies – this way now too? Or close? Peggy Richter are you out there? So often I see Groenies and I think their eye openings are so small and so CLOSE TOGETHER on the head, it’s as though they are barely 2 inches apart!!!
Looks wrong to me!
Belgian Sheepdogs should not have collie eyes. BSCA has a code of ethics — http://www.bsca.info/codeofethics.html The online judge education photos show correct eyes: http://www.bsca.info/judgesEducation/head.html It is sometimes hard to see eyes in a Belgian since it’s desired that the eyes be dark and dark eyes in a black masked dog are sometimes hard to see (look at the dogs in the opening of the standard discussion and you’ll see what I mean. In some of the photos, you can’t see the eyes at all) http://www.bsca.info/standard.html . But collie eyes are incorrect. Having said that, there are those who get dogs with too much coat or wrong type eyes, “collie heads” (I hate to say it but this is very popular in Europe where it started), bad structure, etc thru the conformation format — for one thing, not all judges pay attention to the standard.
By the way, I wish the CCA had at least ASKED AKC to not register M x M breedings or specifically specified no MM in their COE. It isn’t required to be a CCA member to show a collie in AKC, so the clubs really don’t have a lot of power, but they could at least say something about it. I could understand the desire to keep Merle (I know a lot of Aust. shepherd breeders) but it is, IMO, a very problematic gene. Merle probably occured in Belgians prior to the stud book – and I suppose I am grateful that this color was never included as an acceptable color. My breed has it’s own issues, but at least merle isn’t one of them.
Frustrated Rescuer Just as they are speaking of Beligan Sheepdog. When my son wanted He purchased one here in the States. What did I find with his pedigree and breeding pattern a misuse of the Brackett Formula. All inbred on one European import sire.
Pure Bred Breeders through molecular and genetic science findings must embrace new modern scientific breeding pattern IMO and AFAIK. This will end me or you buying or taking into our hearts so many disabled victims of ignorance in breeding practices.
Digressing a little here, but re Kathy’s comments – yep. It is very hard to avoid Yako/Tarass in a Belgian Sheepdog pedigree. As years go on, it becomes pretty close to impossible. And it is not a case that “anything not related to this dog is ok” because of course OTHER dogs have OTHER genetic pluses and minuses. It’s one of the issues of having a breed that isn’t numerous. But there were and are those out there who have worked on breeding decent dogs. It does require more than a “I want a dog bred by someone within 20 miles” (or with Belgians, “within the state”). Ditto for Collies. There ARE those who breed good collies. I’ve seen some of them in the herding trials. I don’t know much about collie pedigrees, but maybe one could compare that of the Westmister dogs with this one (from the agility listings) CH/MACH7 Charidan Fairway’s Reina, RN, MXF, AXP, AJP At the same time one points out those who do wrong, I’ve always thought that it is helpful to point out those who do right.
The AKC conformation Belgians and Tervs that I know have door stop heads and beady little eyes. I have met a couple working line Malenois and they are cool dogs, with heads big enough to hold brains and snouts wide enough so that they can breathe.
I can’t answer as to the dogs “you” have seen. I can only state that this is not in accordance with the standard and that there are breeders out there who aren’t selecting for door stop heads nor beady little eyes. The style that copies the “collie head” has been imported into the US from the EU and started in the 1980s and yes, there are those who think a “collie head” is correct on a Belgian. However there are those who like the older “wolf type” head. You can see some of these here: http://www.obsidianbelgians.com/index.html
http://www.isengardbelgians.com/j_litter.htm
and there are plenty of others. All I can say is that at the same time one points out breeders who do things like MM breedings, it is useful to also point out the alternatives — because if you don’t, they do tend to disappear.
Hi Peg. I’m looking at Isengard’s You Bet and I’m not so crazy about those eyes either, though it could just be the pic. Hard to say w/o seeing them up close. But I also seem to find Groenies and tervs with “beady” eyes compared to mals and no, it’s not just the black color. It’s the eye openings and the small distance between the eyes. The top of the head looks incredibly small and narrow as a result. Not sure if it IS that way as well or if the eyes create some optical illusion.
If Europeans created this then I am surprised, as I tend to think of Europe as being more fair towards what is natural and healthy. But it goes to show there are problems everywhere.
Isengard’s you bet has a fair amount of import. (see http://www.alfirin.net/cdl/search.html for pedigree search). Try this one:
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/9586/belgians/eddie.html
Some of the mals do have broader heads, etc. On the other hand, the Tervs are one of the breeds that have the most dual titled dogs percentage wise of any breed in AKC. There are issues with Belgians (including the trend for “collie heads”) but again, if one wanted the broader head, you certainly can find them. Then let others know about those dogs. As with collies — there ARE dogs out there that ARE bred by ethical folk who DO care about health, etc. They may not be seen at Westminster, but they CAN be found.
The top pic of Eddie looks better than a lot of pics I see of other Groenendaels, but then when I look at the one of him at 11 months, I am thinking “hmmmmm. Not sure.” I think I’d have to see these dogs up close but I will say that at a glance, I’ve seen far worse.
Now I’ll have to look at more Mal and Terv pics to make sure I know what I am seeing in pics. It’s just not the same as seeing them in person. Thanks Peggy!
Well, beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. I think that sloping butt makes his founders look like they must have been hyennas.
Alana,
I have my own best of breed wins & am far from jealous.
You people really know no bounds to your own blindnes.
To breed a sire at such high risk is stupidity, greed & lack of compassion for how this dog goes about his day to day life. Sure deaf & blind dogs adjust well but that dose not make it deffendable.
How can you defend that????
Sam there is no one so blind that refuses to see. There is no one so deaf that refuse to hear the beating of their own heart.
Seems to the issue is not hearing the beating of our own heart, but rather hearing the jingle of cash in our pocket books.
He won Best of Variety, not Best of Breed. Unless I’m mistaken, did he compete with the smooth best of variety winner? To win best of breed he would have to beat the smooth best of variety.
He won Best of Breed. He was in the Group round.
Right Chris thank all collie angels –He did not make it to the Best in Show Ring.
Breeding for double merles is looked harshly upon by nearly every breeder of a breed that has the merle gene (I have dachshunds). I’m not defending the breeders who bred for the dog, nor those who have used him, particularly if he’s not a strong representative of his breed.
That being said, the headline of this article is quite unfair. The judge has no knowledge of the breeding behind a dog they are judging. The dogs are numbered, no names are provided to the judge, so she had no way of knowing that the sire of the dog she awarded best of breed to was a double merle, so she was not “awarding cruelty”. She was awarding the best representative of the breed in her opinion on that day.
Please read my other comments. It’s not unfair. This show gets its cred based on these dogs and it’s quite a big publicity affair. If they don’t want to push their weight around to bring about change, they are culpable in the misery. Abusing dogs has nothing to do with Michael Vick’s football career. You didn’t see the media being silent based upon those grounds. If these are the BEST OF THE BEST dogs, but they are made inhumanely, then I feel fully justified in smearing Westminster. It works both ways Kathleen. You can’t allow them to exploit these dogs when they are well bred and not take the heat when they are monstrously bred.
I never said that the Judge should have picked another dog or whatever. But he 100% gave a BOB to a dog that was created by cruelty. Period.
It seems a bit of a catch-22 for the judge. The point is to pick the most conformationally correct dog out of the group, but by picking the best dog, which so happened to be produced by unethical breeding, you are only bringing some sort of legitimacy to such a horrible practice. However, if the judge didn’t pick this dog for BOB, then there would have been some outcry as well especially if he was unquestionably the most conformationally correct dog of the presented group.
All things considered, the judge is but a very small piece to this very large puzzle. Do you really see anything I’ve written being unfair to the judge? The greater theme of this post is that these dogs are winning ribbons and that means that people will continue to do this until they don’t win ribbons. You’re welcome to suggest where along the great line of responsibility this needs to be stopped, but that’s the resolution, here I am merely advertising the problem.
If judges didn’t reward this, it wouldn’t happen nearly as much. If the breed club forbid it, it’d happen only by mistake or outside of the breed club and thus the show system. Ect. We can play that game, and I welcome people in Collies to start considering how they want to deal with the issue. But again, that’s not the point of this post. The point is to highlight that the “best of the best” are being produced by unethical people and being rewarded for it.
The idea that the judges are without blame, however, is simply wrong. Judges are not impartial pickers of perfect conformation, sorry. If they were, no one would spend $10 advertising their dogs in the magazines and campaigning them. Heck, we wouldn’t even have dog shows. You’d take your dog before a panel of judges and get a score and that would be that. Dog shows are not objective, they are very very subjective and very political and peer pressure filled popularity contests.
So yes, let’s not pretend that the Emperor has clothes here. He has no clothes and show judges are perfectly willing to tell him he has wonderful clothing.
This is a border collie forum correct?
It started out that way, but since then it’s evolved into a general dog culture criticism blog. After all, many of the problems affecting Border Collies are just symptoms of a larger epidemic in the world of dog breeding and ownership.
Pipes do not think this has turned into a blog of criticism of general dog people culture. I see the epidemic for collies that spread by one sire on three continents.
I see a silence majority standing up for our four pawed friend. Dog is man/woman’s BEST Friend.
I am furious with the breeders….everything people say about breeder you a damm good example of proving them right. Bloody well pissed of at this dog receiving the award, Didn’t you hear the out cry of the public at Crufts. MONEY MONEY MONEY that is what it is all about. WHAT ABOUT THE DOGS???? The award should be taken away and Westminster should be discredited.
Another prime example of a major mistake. Once again it shows the incompetance sided with the non-caring of the dignity of all animals. how could anyone allow this to happen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLScvGLR-Nc&feature=player_embedded#!
Another example of this show rewarding cruelity in my own personal opinion no dog should have to walk on bowed legs, breath through a squashed up nose or have such an irregular shaped skull their brain can not sit comfortably within it’s skull.
How is this dog the best dog at the show????????
LOL! Last night at the end of Real Time With Bill Maher, Bill did his “New Rules” sketch and said the dog that won last year looked like something the cat hawked up!
Whoops! I meant THIS year!
I saw New Rules last night. I thought he was actually going to launch into a tirade against Qualzucht in purebred dogs, but he didn’t.
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He says he does a lot for animals and I”m sure he’s not FOR this stuff. The fact that he took time to make fun of it for a few secs says something. He generally gets into other political topics. Also a lot on environmental protections.
As the proud parent of a rescued epileptic animal (a gorgeous, very well built Siberian Husky if it matters)… Westminster, the AKC, and numerous ‘breeders’ sure do seem bent on making some truly screwed up animals. Greed, vanity, and lack of a real life? Ugh.
Did the Judge know that this dog was out of this breeding? Is this dog blind or deaf himself? Are merle colored collies not suppose to be shown? If the answers are no to the first 2 of these questions and yes that color can be shown then why are people condemning the judge and westminster? I understand the breeders should be STOPPED from doing this and that the AKC should not allow such breedings to be registered. Are all dog show clubs suppose to know when breeders are doing unethical things? Are the judges suppose to know the breeding of each dog they judge and who bred it? I don’t think so. CONDEM THE BREEDERS and the AKC but not the show and an unknowning judge.
Westminster and that judge are claiming to pick the BEST of the best in Collies. Is that dog the best of the best? NO. It’s an ethical nightmare and an example of extreme callousness and inhumane breeding practices. (It’s also ugly as sin). ALL of the people in that building have embraced the culture and structure of the organizations (breed clubs, registries, etc.) that compelled the breeders to do this to their dogs (what other reason would they do this if not to win big at Westminster?) and so they are complicit in the act: accessories before and after the fact.
The Judge’s action is the coronation. It deserves ridicule, no matter if he has any knowledge or power or not. When it was revealed that Reggie Bush was unethical, the Championship trophy for his University was stripped as was his personal trophy, the two most coveted awards in college football. When Vanessa Williams violated the ethics of the Miss America Organization, they took away her crown.
So tell me, does the Westminster Kennel Club, the AKC, and the Collie Club of America even HAVE a code of ethics? And do you think they should allow and reward unethical behavior? It’s a bullshit answer to say “they just didn’t know.” “It’s not their job.” They should have known, it should be their job, THEY are claiming to be advancing the breeding of dogs and THIS IS NOT IT!
This is not an impossible or even difficult investigation. The AKC could publish Merle x Merle breedings in 10 minutes if it wanted to, they have the records. Westminster also has the parental pedigree of ALL their entrants too, they list them on their site!
If you allow these people to win at Westminster, you’ve given them their Miss America, Super Bowl, President, Pope, etc. victory. The highest reward. That’s unacceptable.
Very informative I was sold a show collie with colobomas and was told that was normal they checked alltheir pups with an eye doctor before selling at least. I also groomed an Aussie double merle blind and deaf really no eyes there.I was told that that collies winner had odd looking eyes.well the breeders better open up their eyes just to get more merles in a litter must make a lot of money selling that color
Westminster Kennel Club has nothing to do with the registration of this dog. The dog is registered with the AKC and the rules for registering each breed are set by the parent club for the breed which in this case would be the Collie Club. If you want to blame the collie club and the breeders then I agree but the judge and Westminster KC itself have no knowledge of a dog’s parentage when it is entered in the show.
Duh. And Michael Vick’s dog abuse had nothing to do with football, but ESPN covered that story more than plenty of other news channels? Why? Because character matters and Westminster is dog breeding’s “BIG GAME.” They ARE in fact rewarding dog breeding in that ring, and they are rewarding politics too. And this dog is a corruption of both.
This *IS* a problem with dogs shows and a problem with Westminster. Remember, you have to be invited. If their only standard is wins over the last year and there is no punishment for bad behavior anywhere in the system, then the entire system fails these dogs.
So get over it. This criticism is fair and timely.
Oh through the eyes and hearts of those who love. I can not tell you how much it means to me to know you are out there.
Kate: Showing a dog one has bred or just fortunate enough to recognize its qualities. There is a bond betweeen you and this higher life understanding life form. The dog is so in tune with you and for some brief moment in time this is recognized by a good judge of the breed. When one is given that ribbon it to some of us reward of one’s efforts to be one with MAN’S and Women’s BEST FRIEND.
@ Brie
I DO know Matt & Anita Stelter. They obviously have you fooled. They will do ANYTHING for a ribbon at ANY cost. It matters not to them that they are doing the breed a dis service with their reckless breeding practices. I also hold CCA responsible for looking the other way on this issue. I have done and continue to do everything in my power to shut them down. I have notified animal control in their county that they have at least 1 blind dog on their property. I have also notified Matt’s employer; Dr. Fosters & Smith of his actions and I am currently petitioning AKC to have BOTH of their judging licenses revoked. We do not need these 2 idiots bringing the rest of the ethical breeders down.
Good job, Collielover1. I think this is what the world wants to see. Glad someone that is involved with the breed is doing something about it.
Horrifying that they are AKC judges. What does Matt do for Fosters and Smith?
The first thing I would like to do is mention that Westminster has no idea how a dog is bred. They do not know if a dog is the product of a double merle parent. They know it has a valid AKC number, a Champion, and if it were in the top 5 for the breed. That is it. When they do the entry the owners fill in all the other info… the owners name, breeders name, and dog breed, etc. There is no class division that seperates the merle dogs from the non-merle so they have no idea even which dogs are merle. The fact that this dog was entered is because the owner submited the entry and paid the fee to show.
As to the morals behind breeding a merle to merle. It disgusts me. I have shown dogs in a multitude of breeds in the past 20 years that I have been invovled in shows. I have handled dogs for owners… and now I show only my dogs. I may help a friend at a show if they need an extra hand but that is it.
I am sickened by the breeders that produced the double merle as well as the fact that they have him open for stud. AND even more disgusted with the fact that he is a top producing male. It does not seem as though he is only being bred to the owners girls so someone is paying to use this dog. I cant help but doubt that he has any of his other health clearances since they threw out the morals and conduct of the Collie Club of America. It is just disrespectful and inhumane. I currently am involved in a breed that could have a “double merle” but merle is called a different name. Our breed club has disqualified double merles from the show ring and strongly recommends that people not breed them. When we sign our code of conduct in theory it goes aganist it to do those breedings. Does it mean that some people continue to do them? Yes, unfortunatly. We see them in high demand from the puppy mills and backyard breeders.
Now on to the money part of this discussion. If I were to add up every expense Ihave between shows, health clearnaces, routine vet visits,vaccines, puppy care, care of the mother in whelp, and the list goes on I would probably still be close to $7,000-8,000 in the hole. Of course I also make sure that breedings are done to produce the healthiest animal I can and I only breed once in a blue moon it seems like and that is to produce my next dog to show. I usually have a puppy waiting list and have had people wait over a year to get a puppy from me. My puppies are not sold for big money. I *might* get to cover the cost of the breeding if I am lucky. I dont gouge the public with my prices… but I do screen the heck out of my owners. I want my puppies to leave going to what I consider to be a forever home unless something horrible happens. In my contract it states that if the owner can not keep the dog they are to return it to me and that the dog is not to end up in a shelter or rescue. All my puppies are microchipped with my name as being a contact on the chip. I take breeding as a serious subject and not something that is done just because I want to see cute little puppies or enjoy the smell of puppy breath. My puppies are on spay/neuter agreements… and if by chance I have an older puppy at the house (perhaps one I was growing out to show) it is spayed/neutered before it leaves my house to go to the new owner.
I am sickend mored by the irresponsible puppy mills and backyard breeders that produce litter and litter of dogs and do not care the least bit about the care of them. They do not know the first thing about health testing… nothing about why it is important for the dogs structure to be how it is… they just do it because they can make money…. or the old excuse “so my children can see the puppies born” *GAG* In my breed they are often doing the breedings to see what “cool” colors and patterns they can mix together and you never know what will show up. Nevermind the skin issues with some colors and the health issues with other patterns. Those are the people that need to be attacked by these rescue groups, etc. Responsible breeders are just that… responsible… and these days there are fewer and fewer that fit the catergory.
Actually, the WKC chose which collies to invite to Westminster. The collies they chose included two collies sired by the double merle Avalanche.
All your talk about BYBs and puppy mills has no bearing on this issue. The breeding of Avalanche was not done by a BYB–quite the opposite.
The invites are sent automatically to the top 5 by points at a certain date. No one at Westminster KC sits down and chooses which dogs to invite. We all agree it is wrong to breed for double merles and even more wrong to use them for breeding, but direct your anger and outrage to the Collie Club and the AKC.
Ok, sorry, I was almost right on that one. 🙂 My point was that the dogs were invited to Westminster rather than the owners choosing to enter them.
As I said, the top 5 by points are invited to pre-enter. Then any other dog with a Championship can be submitted and they are chosen randomly until the show is full. The owners still have to submit their entry and pay a fee in order to show. The invites are generated now by computer. There is no human decision making involved in the process.
Ok, reading through this, you will do anything for attention. I hope someone sues the shit out of you and you get shut down.
First thing I would like to point out, is westminster doesn’t look at anything passed top 5 and CH. The top 5 dogs in the breeds are automatically invited based on AKC stats. The top 5 dogs in each breed are decided by how many dogs of the same breed they beat in a calender year. The dog that beats the most, is #1, and so on. These stats are tracked by AKC. The top 5 in each breed are then sent to WKC, who then sends out the invites. They don’t look at who shows the dog, the lineage, the genetics, the number of ads – nothing. If they started looking at all that a deciding who was “good enough” to enter, they would be opening themselves up for a major can of worms.
As a judge, you are not supposed to know who is in your ring. If he didn’t know that this dog was out of a MM sire, THEN HE WAS DOING HIS JOB CORRECTLY. All the judge is supposed to do is look at what is in the ring, and pick the dog he thinks meets the standard the best. Yes, judges will sometimes be unethical, but you have no proof he was in the know about this, and should be given the benefit of the doubt.
How the rest of the entries are chosen? Anyone who is a CH by the cutoff date of that year is allowed to fill out a form, send in the money, and wait. All the forms are pretty much thrown into a bin, and sheets are randomly pulled out until they run out or meet their Max number of that breed for the show.
Westminster knew nothing about it, but you’ve got to go after whoever will cause the viewers to look, right? If the title was “some dumb breeder bred a MM blind deaf dog and then produced a highly campaigned dog from it and continues to breed it”, it won’t pull the views or the anger you’re looking for. But if you say “westminster allowed this bullshit”, then people look. Just state the facts. I see too much opinion in you’re articles, and too much of what I call, ‘rile up’ factor. You want to make people mad to act without showing the whole picture.
You’re entire blog pisses me off and not in the way you’re looking for. I don’t condone MM breedings, and I’d never do one, but I don’t condone your blog either. It’s nothing but slander.
Bean –
It’s my blog. I pay for it, I write it. It serves whatever point I want it to serve, and yes, the most idiotic thing you said is “you’re doing this for attention.” Well duh, who publishes material in hopes that people don’t read it?
I don’t care about the policy of Westminster, if they don’t institute quality control over the dogs they allow in, then they get to suffer the bad press when they award one BOB that’s from unethical people. It’s really that simple. If they don’t want the flack, they can change their policy.
Judges are the PEERS of breeders. Of course they know each other, they take photos with the winning dogs, these dogs go to hundreds of shows, they see them all over the place and judges can look in the listing book just like anyone else, let alone the ease through which people in the same community know each other. This is not a blind evaluation. If it were double blind, then it would BE double blind. You’d have expert judges looking at dogs not being handled or groomed by anyone other than the selection and judging committee. But shows don’t work like that. They have the appearance of objectivity but they are not objective.
Where did I fault the judge for not knowing this dog was out of a double merle sire? The breed club should regulate that.
You’re so right! I’m totally exploiting the Westminster name to push my agenda, and it’s worked brilliantly. Easily 10x as many people have read this article than read my previous articles on double merle breeding and this dog. The word has spread greatly. Success. The Collie list has been non-stop flame wars between those who condone this and those who find it appalling. Success.
The more people who know about this, the better. And the public has come down almost 100% against merle x merle breeding. The fancy breeders in Collies will have to reckon with this new reality. People know now and they are not pleased. SUCCESS.
If I believed you, than I’d have to say that Westminster is just one dog show and it has no more importance than that. But that’s a lie. The AKC, WKC, and the fancy have spent a fortune and worked tirelessly to improve and promote the positive mystique around Westminster and to cash in on all the hype. Why would you feel justified in allowing them to cash in on the undeserved hype (After all, it’s just one dog show, there are thousands of those every year) but you get all hot and bothered when anyone uses that hype to correctly and justly bring awareness about the TRUE humane cost of that dog show?
I don’t care if you’re mad. Go suck your thumb. This is my blog and I enjoy pissing off idiot apologists like you would condone cruelty and torture breeding on principle and a twisted devotion to fancy shows.
It’s not slander, Bean, because it’s true.
And no one cares if you condone my blog. You have no power to push opinions. This post proves that I have great power to do so. And guess what? Collies and all dogs will be better off for my efforts. Who is better off for your fart of a comment?
If you stopped saying “blah blah blah” and actually read it, you’d see how the process is done. It’s not out to promote bad breeders, it’s actually done pretty fairly. What I think is bullshit is allowing in class dogs next year, but whatever.
We take pictures with the judges when we win so we can brag to each other within the community that we won. I love shoving it in certain breeders faces that I win and I win fairly. Do you think judges keep those photos? They don’t. And those who sent judges photos, those are usually thrown out.
And judges are only hired about a dozen times or so a year to keep away from politics. Two dozen at MOST. When clubs continue to hire the same judges show after show, you see a drop in numbers. They don’t do hundreds of shows a year.
I think the fact that he put up this collie instead of a top 5 collie says something. Any judge that walks into the ring knowing the genetics, breedings, parentage of the dogs in the ring is overstepping their bounds. When judges start dumping dogs because of the ethics of handlers, it’s not about the standard anymore. When you judge, you’re supposed only look at the dog and the standard. Out of this lineup of dogs, who fits that standard the best?
What you’re telling me, is the judge should also know how each breeder breeds and only reward those who do it by a certain ethics? In a perfect world, that would be fantastic, I’d stop losing to shit dogs with high COIs. But right now, it puts them in the same category for me as judges who only put up the sexy handlers with cleavage or the ones that pay 100k a year in ads. They’re still looking at more than just the dog, and that’s not ok.
Judges are almost never unbiased. Oftentimes, they are deliberately picked so they favour the top-kennels. I know this because whenever a judge who is not associated with the breeder, and the results are less than satisfactory, usually the breeder ends up boycotting the judge during future shows; or if there are enough irritated breeders, the said judge is not offended. So do not regurge the crap that the judge does not know who is who.
Besides, no one is saying a judge should know the breeding of the dog. The Wyndlair kennel is widely known. The show world in the United States have been aware of Avalanche for years. People has already known he is a double-merle for a long time now. If a judge clearly have not heard of Wyndlair or Avalanche by now, then he is living underneath a rock.
Besides, Westminster in itself is an extension of the AKC because AKC dogs are the ones who get invited to the big annual show. So, whatever the judge puts up, it reflects itself on the Westminster and on the AKC.
Since AKC technically does have the power to ban merle-to-merle breedings, or at least mark them on the pedigrees, then whatever is permitted in the ring is an endorsement of unethical behaviours, and such promotion of a progeny is a reflection of a poor policy whether or not the judge is aware of past events.
If merle-to-merle breeding was banned, like it is in FCI countries, then Avalanche would be on limited registration, then Vincent would not be registered, then there would be no offspring of double-merle at any level of competition, including the top.It is really not that hard to see that the judge`s choice is a reflection of Westminster and the AKC.
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Third sentence should be “is not re-invited”, not “is not offended.”
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And Bean, people have tried suing Chris for libel So far no one pinned it on him because they have no grounds. Why? He uses facts to support his statements.
Just because you do not agree with the writing style of a columnist or how a news reporter words his statement on the radio or the television, it does not mean it is slander nor libel. Unless you can prove they are factually wrong, then there is grounds.
So far, in the case of “Border Wars”, no one has succeeded.
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Some people think the definition of libel or slander is “saying something I don’t like.”
Dave this is what amazes me. There may have been a time when such fear tactics might have silenced these issues. ‘There is not place to run or hide now…the Facts are well documented with growing new evidence in every study and identification.
The judges don’t really look at the standard unless they want to. It’s pretty much common knowledge that people “judge shop”, looking for those judges that like the looks of their particular dog, regardless of the standard. For example, the standard says for Standard Schnauzers, the ears can be cropped or natural. Judges have been overheard, at ringside, saying “I would NEVER put up a dog with natural ears!” How is that fair and judging to a standard? While we’re discussing cruelty, what about the idiotic and cruel practice of cropping ears?
Yep everyone has a list of judges to avoid & those to show under due to the individual judges preference for certain types generally whether they like the origanal or the extreme of your particular breeds type.
Bean,
We know how it’s really done & it’s not right as it has allowed a dog that should have never had full reg compete! Why you say should it not have full reg because it’s sire should have NEVER EVER been breed & it NEVER should have been registered on full papers. If anything his breeders should have been brought before a commitity & punished for putting their breeds health & welfare at risk! But no they have been rewarded given full registration & even allowed to stand him to the public without any backlash from your breed club or AKC nor the many show societies who have highly placed his offspring. That leaves the general public to think health & welfare are not hight on the agenda & pretty flashy colours & ribbons ARE.
There is NO excuse for this & there are many guilty parties in my eyes not for what they have done but for doing NOTHING about the sitituation & allowing this disabled dog become a heavily used sire.
If we all just turn our backs & say it’s not our problem nothing will ever change & in my eyes that makes the wittnesses to this as guilty as those whom breed a blind & deaf dog when they knew the risk of that being the outcome was as high as 1 in 4 & then went on to profit from him!!!
I just don’t know how any of this is defendable in anyones eyes & I know a large % of the general public agree with me.
These dogs have had very high profile advertisments for some time now so you can’t tell me the judge didn’t know. Judges are part of the show dog breeding world & we all know how small that world really is & everyone knows everyones bussines & a top winning dog of a iffy breeding is well talked about!
Okay, in a merle to merle breeding the chances of getting a totally sighted double merle with hearing are 75%. So, the individual who said that the chances of producing defective double merles are high, is in error. I’m not saying anyone should do this breeding, I’m just bringing up the correct statistics.
IF I were a Collie breeder (which I’m not), I wouldn’t do a merle to merle breeding myself. But, I would breed to a double merle if I felt that was the best cross for my girl. That double merle doesn’t hand down his deafness or blindness to his puppies. Therefore, I see no reason to exclude a double merle from the breeding pool if he/she is otherwise healthy.
Lastly, very very few people make money responsibly breeding & showing purebred dogs. It’s not like golf or tennis where you can put your stuff away in a closet between outings. Dogs need to be fed, exercised and socialized daily. Between health clearances, regular vet visits, food, toys, matches, dog licenses, shows etc, I run over $10,000 in the hole each year. Yes, I said over $10,000 and I have very few dogs.
Gail, that’s wrong. You are confused about the genetics.
Gail said:
No.
If you breed Mm merle x Mm merle (both dogs look merle, they have only one copy of the merle gene. The potential fetuses are:
25% MM – homozygous double merle
50% Mm – heterozygous single merle
25% mm – non-merle
So 75% of the fetuses are NOT double merle. That does not make them “healthy” double merles.
The percent of MM fetuses that die in utero is unknown (to my knowledge) and the % of born MM puppies that have issues is likewise unknown (to my knowledge).
So there is no “75% healthy double merles” … you’re confusing that with the 75% of fetuses that are not DOUBLE merle.
The chances of producing messed up double merles IS high from all the anecdotes we have and from the information we do have from studies. There are many rescues for merle related impairment. These dogs are not as rare as anyone would hope.
Gail, just had to say two things. First, I feel that a 25% chance of breeding any dog that may come out with sight or hearing issues IS high! 25%??!??!! If someone told you that you had a 25% chance of having a blind child with a man you loved, how would you feel? You’d at LEAST be a bit more conflicted, would you not? Would you DO it? I’d be heartbroken but I don’t think I could. But I guess no one thinks that way when breeding dogs ’cause they are “just” dogs after all.Pffffft! No biggie.
Also I have friends who don’t show, breed, etc, that spend almost as much as you. On their mongrels. And exercise doesn’t have to cost anything so that hardly counts.
But for that matter, I don’t feel bad for people who are in the hole because of their chosen hobby. Because it’s A. “Chosen.” No one MADE you do this. B. A “hobby.” It’s not necessary.
It is high a 1 in 4 chance is hight to me, out of a litter of 8 thats 2 affected puppies. But even if it was 1 in 8 it’s too high when it’s a risk that could have been totally avoided. They only had to find a non merle mate for there breeding.
Yep very few make money showing but some do as a form of advertising their bloodlines so they can out huge price tags on their pups & have a better chance of exporting pups.
Gail how about the stats on offspring mutations? Do you know those numbers? Are you aware of other health issues that are already identified to dilution? Poor argument in my opinion.
one of the things that differs in the US is that the registries are not Government controlled or Government run. Consequently it is up to the registry (in this case AKC, but I haven’t seen UKC do differently) to decide what can or cannot be registered. That means that AKC can (as they have) opt to include dogs like albino Dobermans over the objections of the parent club. But at least in the case of Dobermans, the parent club tried. And they include information on the issue on their website. I really do NOT understand why the Collie Club of America doesn’t at least TRY and doesn’t at least state in their COE and on their website that MM dogs are almost always deaf, blind (or both) if they even live.
I am not a breeder, but I am a lover of Shetland Sheepdogs (Shelties), which are relatives of Collies (and I love Collies, too). As it happens, I am fortunate enough to own a double-merle Sheltie, who is blind and deaf from birth. Tommy does *NOT* have the slightest idea that he’s disadvantaged! He’s a loving, happy, healthy, and active boy of about 6 years. He loves to go for walks and hikes, and will explore any place where we allow him to be.
While I personally would never breed a merle to a merle because of the possibility of producing deaf and/or blind puppies, that’s largely because most people are unwilling to take the time and effort to learn how to work with those puppies. You should understand that merle-to-merle breedings do NOT produce only double-merle offspring; in fact, statistically, only about 1/4 of the puppies will be deaf, blind, or both.
There is, in my opinion, no “greed” involved on the part of Avalanche’s breeders. They were trying to produce a sire with particular genetic characteristics, taking a known risk that he might not have usable sight or hearing. There’s a saying in the dog community that “If you’re making money breeding dogs, you’re not doing it right.”
I have never had the pleasure of meeting Avalanche, but I can guarantee you that he’s not unhappy about being blind or deaf. His nose and skin/paws give him far more important sensory information anyway (as it does for almost all dogs).
Jim, the general public has a very clear definition of what ‘responsible’ breeders do. Responsible breeders health test their dogs, because responsible breeders DO NOT produce defective dogs ON PURPOSE.
Breeding two dogs that are carriers for juvenile cataracts will produce pups with a one in four chance of being affected. Affected puppies will go blind.
A merle x merle breeding will produce pups with a one in four chance of being defective, either sight or hearing or both.
Explain to me how doing a merle x merle breeding is ethically justifiable while a breeding between two carriers of juvenile cataracts is not.
Jess recently posted..Dogs were not created by inbreeding– but they are being destroyed by it
So were the people who risked Avalanche being blind and deaf “doing it right?”
You’re clearly saying getting a color was more important than SIGHT AND HEARING!!!! So what if the dog is happy? The humans wanted a color! Clearly there is a group of people out there who feel getting a color someone likes is worth blinding a dog!!!!!
This is not the same as a dog bred from truly healthy, normal, sighted and hearing parents that by some extremely rare fluke, did not develop proper senses in-utero. The people involved KNEW the genetics and knew the odds, and intentionally rolled the dice.
If you care about color so much, take it out on what clothes you pick, what furniture you buy. Don’t ruin animals and say it’s okay.
Or were these dogs bred BECAUSE some folks wanted a merle that matched their couch? Don’t laugh. I worked at the ASPCA and we had animals returned because someone in the family felt the cat or dog did not match the color scheme of the decor! OH that burns me up!!!!
These are truly horrid values and I have no problem saying that whatsoever!
And the reasoning of people not doing it because not enough people know how to DEAL with sensory deprived animals is such a cop out! Do you HEAR yourself or are you the product of an MM breeding too?
GEE I’m sick of hearing that a 1 in 4 chance of producing disabled(oh but they are happy dogs) dogs is OK.
No one here is saying they are all born affected we know the odds & it’s still not OK.
The Swedish National Collie Club has banned breeding merle to merle for more than twenty years; a merle may only be bred to a tricolour.Our national Kennel Club has recently seen fit to follow suit, banning double merle in all breeds. In part, as I guess, out of a better understanding of the risks involved for the resulting puppies. And in part a growing awareness that understanding of genetics andd health issues is spreading, while the dog world draws attention to itself by its antics and the risk of restrictive laws is growing.
I´ll link frpm my web site to this and let people here know the attention the merle articles are receiving.
That’s awesome Bodil!
To Sam, re carriers: It is relatively easy when a disease is common and due to a simple recessive to develop a test for it. This allows us to use carriers intelligently.
I have Afghans, and they have juvenile cataracts. It’s rare, a simple recessive, and there’s no test for it. Affected dogs go blind. I would not personally use a dog proved to be a carrier, simply because I have no way of knowing which offspring may also be carriers.
For a more benign disease, I might have a different opinion.
Of course I am not heavily mired in the closed registry system with it’s shrinking gene pools, either. Your mileage may vary.
Jess recently posted..Pass the Ammo
Yes thats make sence, I was talking about a things we can test for.
I do hope we will 1 day have more tests available to us.
I don’t believe in closed registers either & think health & genetic diversity should come before breedism. I have seen great results as I have 1 pure poodle & 2 homebreed high % poodles that I spent many years getting to a point I am happy with. They have less health issues & better working drive than any of the pures I had.
I have also worked with servel breeding up programes in sheep & cattle.
Livestock people are generally better acquainted with the biological definition of breed, gene frequency.
Dog breeders bring religion into it.
Jess recently posted..Pass the Ammo
Jess I have not experienced religious or even spiritual natures in these people. Hyprocites with philosopy…Keep your friends close and your enemies closser. Oh yuk
I breed purebred dogs and I try VERY hard to breed healthy dogs. It makes me sick at heart to hear of breeders who do not do their best to avoid health problems. But the DOG BUYING PUBLIC has to take responsibility too! 99% put more research into their next brand of coffee maker than a puppy who will be part of their family for 12+ years!
Before I bought my first dog I spent MONTHS researching breeds. Health was a big concern, some breeds had more hip problems than others, some needed more grooming than I wanted to give. Some were easier to train than others. Some barked more. Some like to chase things that run. Once I decided on a breed I researched breeders and found one that had a good reputation and did health checks. I did NOT see a commercial and decide a Chihuahua was the dog for me! Or a Disney movie and go out and get a Dalmatian.
“Hey that is a cool looking dog, lets get one!”
All you have to do these days is get on the internet and find out what are healthier breeds and find out what health checks should be done and make sure a breeder they talk to has done them and even that information can be found online. I’ve tried to help friends find a well bred dog from a responsible breeder but they want a dog NOW and go to a pet shop or the internet site that promises perfect puppies and pay as much or more than they would from a reputable breeder that may have a waiting list because they DO have a good reputation. I believe people should have the right to choose to have a breed of dog that suits their lifestyle but they would put puppy mills out of business if they cared to put time into choosing the dog that will be a part of their family for many years and being honest with themselves if a dog is right for them and their work schedules and busy family life. Yes you can have two parents with all their health checks and who healthy themselves but produce a puppy with a health problem. But it greatly decreases the chances of that happening.
That’s all true, although I’m not sure what picking a dog for your lifestyle has to do with a breeder intentionally taking chances on producing a deaf and blind dog.
I suppose if everyone learned more about potential health issues, and boned up on genetics, it would help. But I doubt the average family could, or SHOULD, be expected to come up against issues of this severity.
The speech given to prospective average families looking for a family dog is always “Do your homework. What do you want out of a dog?” Some lists of checks include checking for health, and say nothing more. “Health” could mean anything to newbies. Some do list prevalent health issues like HD, cataracts, etc. Even if there was a list you could google for rough collies that included “collie eye” or check for “normal eyes,” what do the people do WITH that information?
They go to a show, they see a dog they like. They, probably never having heard of something like, say, colobomas, walk up to the dog and ask Qs. They could be looking right AT a dog with colobomas, or one with a blind and deaf sire behind it that won’t be mentioned.
Will the breeder come right out and say “Oh yes, he has all those problems. You don’t want him.” when he or she is in that ring?
Breeders that don’t breed with the most regard for health concerns aren’t going to SAY they don’t do so. These families are depending entirely on the alleged “pros” for their info, and those with less health regard can talk as good a talk as those with more scruples. For a novice family, who you run into and get to like can be a roll of the dice, unless you run into folks with exceptional interest in breed research.
But why SHOULD they have to go to extreme lengths just to have a healthy dog? Why do we live in a world where this may be necessary?
I used to blame no one but the home buyers for getting into mortgages they could not handle. And it is STILL their fault to some extent, sure. I for one, don’t trust bankers or salesmen in industries where I KNOW they are only in it for profit; to make a living. I’d be checking all the rules myself.
However, there are so many rules concerning mortgages, bank loans, amortization tables, what to do if you lose your job and cannot pay, etc, that by the time you were done looking at EVERYTHING, you may as well apply to be a broker yourself. Lots of families were depending on the “pros” as the teachers; as much a tool as Google or an accredited course in real estate. They don’t have time to learn EVERYTHING there is to know. They should have been able to trust these brokers. After all, why would a broker bring in a bad risk, you would have thought?
They thought wrong. It was unprecedented. Families were led to believe, by professionals in the industry, that they could manage to afford houses which they could not.
Now, if the big message is that you should go to a show to find a “responsible breeder”, and this isn’t a salesmanship hobby as so many want us to believe, wouldn’t the breeders themselves be the source of info to determine what dog is right for them?
I’ve spoken to breeders in many shows, of many breeds, who give nothing but positive feedback of why thier breed, their pup, would be easy to manage and perfect for me, no matter my scedule or lifestyle.
A toller needs nothing more than a mile walk a day, said one. A man with an Akita said it would be fine in a dog friendly, building. I would NOT necessarily consider an Akita a good choice in a building loaded with dogs to run into every day. Raising him around them may do wonders with the right reinforcement, but they take more work than other breeds to achieve this, usually.
Oh, and the breeder also said they can “hold it for 16 hours!”
He BRAGGED about this. SIXTEEN HOURS?! Why would I subject a dog to this? Why would anyone encourage a person to make a dog hold it this long? He didn’t even mention anything like “Oh, but that may not be the case in puppyhood or in the senior years.”
These are some of the folks the average family are depending on for their research that you expect from them.
While I certainly do not believe doing merle to merle breedings is something anyone should do, I see no benefit in doing them.
However this is not the first time a dog has won BOB at Westminster and was sired by a double merle. In 2010, the BOB sheltie was sired by a very popular double merle stud dog.
Okay this made me sick. Thank you for releasing this article. I can not believe the irresponsibility of these sick breeders. With all of the healthy and gorgeous dogs in in the world, both the breeding that resulted in Avalanche, and the breeding of his son should NEVER have happened! I would never support these kennels.
In days gone by, merle to merle breedings were more common, because people bred to fulfill a different outcome for the dogs. Working ability was prized, and other things were incidental, including the occasional “necessity” for culling puppies that were born with defects (nice way of saying that they were killed). I’m sure that some of my own dogs’ ancestors could have been from merle to merle breedings. In this day and age, however, one would think that a higher form of ethics should prevail. I think that the decision to intentionally breed this way is wrong, and no amount of rationalization makes it right. Greed and ego at work again.
I don’t believe merle to merle was more common, even when much less was known about the horrible side effects. By almost all counts, merle has been a rare color in the breeds that now have it. It was certainly more rare in border collies before breeding for color became a luxury. There are heavy stigmas against all color variants in the working community in border collies, anti-red, anti-merle, etc. so I don’t think that it could have possibly been more common in the past than it is now when many breeders choose their stock specifically for recessive color patterns and dilutions, etc.
Still, it’s unfortunate that people would be so careless today when we do know these things.
I know with most farmer types(in Australia) they where against any dilute or fancy colours in both their working dogs & horses & would never intentionaly breed a colour other than black n white or tro coloured in the BC & kelpies came in black, black n tan or deep red. I don’t know about Aussie’s etc as they are not common working dogs here in australia on farms. I remember when my BC bitch whelped a wheaten coloured pup n my neighbouring farmers said she should be put in a bucket & not to tell anyone, lol. Well she went on to be 1 of the best dogs i ever owned & my Bitch would throw 1 in every litter she had no matter the dog we put over her.
Christopher I am shocked with the actual moleculer and genetic evidence now scientific FACT that they would continue to have thier brag sites. The arrogance and
total disregard for the breeds and those who take compassion upon the true victims who ae blind, deaf, crippled, skin problems, weak immune systems, etc.
Well, this should not happen again if AKC takes time to address the phenotype misjudging? Science now tells us through merle gene markers results. There exist, not just double dilutes or just the defectives of white merle breeding, sable, blue, grey/gray and white merles.
The title of this article is stupid and overly dramatic. It is obvious the author knows NOTHING about genetics and breeding dogs. If a blind and deaf human had children would anyone run around saying it is “cruel” to allow him to have children. This article is a bunch of bunkem written by someone totally ignorant. The breeder stated that it was a risk to do the breeding. In truth it is a risk EVERYTIME someone has a child that it could have a birth defect. This is nothing more than the same kind of risk. The sire has a wonderful home and there is nothing cruel about letting him have puppies. He is NOT passing on the blind and deafness and I am sure he is having a wonderful time siring puppies. I really wish people with absolutely NO QUALIFICATIONS or CREDENTIALS would stop opening their mouths about subjects they are not qualified to speak on. I know an AKC judge who teaches genetics at MIT. She is someone I would listen to on this subject – this author and the obvious pet owning commentors are not.
Really stupid and over dramatic where do you obtain scientific support for the old wives tales? Deliberate breeding patterns that it is known percentage of offspring will produce is the issue Elizabeth. Not human multiple births.
Thank you, Thank you Christoper
Now why does one have to read it in English from this site? Is it because the Collie Club of America, Inc. and under the delegate leadership of the AKC registered White Merle Collies? Is this why you can not understand the Title Elizabeth? You did not know this? This is how this Westminister’s Daddy was likely registered?
http://www.pastorecozze.com Resources
http://www.pastorescozzese.com/allevare/note_e.htm
Now AKC. CCA do not even discuss the AKC identification? Now what is wrong here with American Pure Breed Registry in Collies? They allow for the registry of white merle in my opinion and studies.
The “White merle”, also known as double-diluted, is instead originated by Merle alleles. This type of coat is produced by mating two merle, coupling that should be avoided, and that in some countries it is even forbidden (in Switzerland, Germany , Great Britain, Sweden, Finland). Although these dogs are usually deaf and / or blind and it is not suitable to be bred, because the chances of getting sick subjects is very high. This defect occurs in dogs that inherit a double merle factor (MM), which, as we know, is dominant, rather than that one (Mm) that produces the merle coat.”
The real white collie (white collie) instead comes from the alleles White Spotting and is a very healthy….
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/problems.html
http://www.lethalwhites.com/lethalwhite.html
http://mysite.verizon.net/res8w765/id65.html
http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/99-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info/great-dane-color-historical/128-color-and-pattern-associated-disorders-in-the-
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/merle.html
There is a genetic difference between white merle and white collies with a history well recorded: http://www.pastorescozzese.com/storia/bianco_e.htm
http://www.pastorescozzese.com/allevare/white_e.htm
http://www.pastorescozzese.com/allevare/marvel_e.htm
The links are so many to support this exposure by Border Wars Manifesto it would take volumes to document.
Christopher is not being over dramatic and but displaying an exceptional education which allows one to explore varies sciences for exceptional comprehension. This is not his Breed, but can apply with great skill the health and breeding issues of many. Thank you Christopher.