On the opposite end of the prestige-cost-difficulty spectrum from Thoroughbreds lies the modest rodents. There’s no glory to be had in breeding a perfectly shaped rat or mouse–although if you look hard enough someone out there will give you a ribbon in exchange for an entry fee to their rat show.
For those who really want to shape their lines, see the fruits of their progress in months instead of decades, start and end their hobby at will with little moral or ethical conundrums and for a cost that’s a mere fraction of owning a larger animal, rodent breeding is where it’s at. Mouse stock is cheap to acquire and cheap to dispose of, an entire mouse breeding program can be accomplished in the corner of a shed or a bookshelf, they are easy to feed and maintain and culling usually supersedes expensive vet care options, mice mature quickly, they have short gestation times, and have large litters. All of the major impediments to starting and keeping a horse or dog breeding program don’t exist in mice.
The lack of pretense in discussing their hobby is as illuminating as it is disturbing in the rodent fancy: there’s little talk of rainbow bridges and happily ever after. There’s no retirement and vet visits, the name of the game is constant and efficient culling. Dog breeders who embody the same detached and callous relationship with their stock can attempt to cover it up with overly calculated language and the appearance of an emotional commitment that likely doesn’t really exist. They don’t even bother in rodents.
Look at the ribbons! Ignore the poop.
It’s not about winning ribbons. Ok, ok, it really is about winning ribbons.
There are some breeders who love the breed more than the sport, who when given a chance between the two when they are in conflict will side with the animals instead of the institution. For others, the sport is superior to the animals. You’ll recognize the later as breed hoppers in conformation, who after failing to make a large enough impression in one breed will suddenly reinvest in another breed that they deem more competitive or attractive to upstarts.
This mouse breeder gives us an insight into this mentality. She abandons the mice she actually cares about in favor of mice she has a better chance at winning with:
When I first started in the mouse fancy at the beginning of 2009, my chosen variety was dove self. Experienced fanciers told me that I’d never get anywhere with them and that I should choose something else, but I persevered because I found them so beautiful. I was firm believer that you have to love what you’re breeding since you’re looking at 50 mice of the same variety, day in, day out, and in any case winning wasn’t that important to me… Or so I thought!
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Eventually I needed another silver buck from Heather, which she kindly gave me, along with another little hint that maybe I should give up on the doves and breed something with which I could win. My doves were regularly winning their class but never got anywhere in the challenges and, although I was not bothered to start with, I was starting to care about winning.
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I was starting to feel very frustrated and I’d come to the conclusion that for some reason doves just can’t compare to PEW/silver/champagne. I’d had about eighty litters of dove/silver at this point and in every single litter the silvers had been better mice than the doves in every way.
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Whatever the reason for it, whether it was a lack of skill on my part or an impossibility in the variety itself, I could not succeed with dove self. But although I failed I certainly feel that the couple of years I worked with them were not wasted. I learned so much from them and the other fanciers from whom I asked advice. I really think that failing with these mice made me a much better fancier in the long run!
Look, they come in Merle!!
The most important genetics are coat color genetics!
The level of genetic ignorance in the fancy is staggering, and this blog aims to light a candle in that darkness with numerous essays about genetic science. But one thing I haven’t written much about is mundane color genetics that have no moral implications. Most breeders in the fancy have only a modicum of interest in genetics and most of what they know stems from an unhealthy obsession with how to make pretty animals in unusual colors, thus the investment in study of coat color genetics.
As many of you know, when the mousework is done for the day I spend my time learning what I can about everything; husbandry, breeding, showing and, my favourite subject, coat colour/pattern genetics.
Like dogs, this quickly turns into the most shallow and frivolous obsessions like making sure Dalmatians have silver dollar sized spots that don’t touch.
I spent many hours searching for information, and eventually came across some photographs of Dutch, broken and even marked mice from 1919. They were very similar, in fact I have seen Dutch mice which looked just like the ‘broken’ of the 1919! They were nothing like the superb brokens we see on the show bench now, with their good type and small, defined spots. These were patchy Dutch, at best; complete with poor size and cobby type.
…So anyway, my first litters had arrived and I will never forget the excitement of impatiently waiting for those first markings to come through.
Abyssinian mice have distinctive swirl patterns in their hair known as “rosettes” –sort of like the ribbons you can win for breeding one.
And it doesn’t stop with coat color patterns, we also see the same novelty obsession with unusual hair patterns that we have in dogs.
National Mouse Club Standard: Currently unstandardised by the NMC. This is the provisional standard that I have written and towards which I am currently working: “The Abyssinian mouse must have at least one rosette on either side of the body. They must meet at the spine and form a ridge of hair running from the middle of the back, along the spine and finishing at the tail set. The rosettes must appear symmetrical when viewed from above. More rosettes is an advantage, but overall symmetry and rosette coverage is of greater import than number of rosettes. There must be a defined parting down the centre of the under from throat to vent. The colour may be that of any standard variety with eye colour to match”
Heavy metal band patches on your lab coat makes mouse judging hard core.
Follow the herd mentality.
One of the most important things when choosing a variety is whether or not winning is important to you. There are varieties that are not as likely to win as others. Reds, for example, will not have as good a chance at best in show as a silver self because reds are naturally let down by the poor type inherent with the Ay gene. A superb example of a red will get it’s due, but it’s much harder and will take longer. But, there is still much satisfaction to be gained from varieties like reds, especially if you become known within the fancy as having the best mice of that variety. If you want to win, chooose a variety that has a good chance. Any of the pale selfs and satins have much success on the show bench, but black is the only dark self likely to make it to best in show. Chocolate and blue will never look as good as a good show black, and varieties like these are known as ‘bridesmaids’, as in ‘always a bridesmaid, never a bride’. Black tans are more likely to win than, say, champagne tans, because with a black tan the whole mouse is bred to be as dark and rich as possible, whereas on the cham tan you need to keep the top colour delicate and pale whilst trying to make the tan dark and rich. Breeding marked mice will rarely result in BIS winners – but when you have a ‘flyer’, it will keep on winning for as long as it’s kept in show condition. If you’re in it to win, keep an eye on the top twenty and the show reports, see which varieties are consistantly winning and which fanciers are doing well with them, and go to them for advice and stock.
No room for sentimentality, it’s not about the animals it’s about what they can get you and the ribbons look just as good even after the animal that won them for you is dead.
You cannot successfully breed and exhibit mice without culling.
The optimum amount of kittens a female can rear at a time is four or five. In the wild mice have very, very large litters because only four or five will actually make it to adulthood. In captivity it is possible for all fifteen of a large litter to survive to adulthood, but these adults will be nowhere near the quality of the adults from a litter of four. The litter of four will be bigger, meatier, and healthier because they had all the milk they needed. As if this wasn’t reason enough, show breeders must cull babies because there is simply no room to keep surplus animals. Your space will be needed for your showing and breeding stock. Mice are not particularly popular pets and you will find it very difficult homing most of each litter. Bucks especially need to be culled as babies because they are greedier with milk than does and, when they grow up, they will most likely need to be housed alone because males will usually fight to the death. Your first litter could well produce ten males that will end up needing ten seperate cages. On the other end of the scale, there is no space for retired mice. Female mice can breed up to about a year old, maximum. After that, she will be taking up space in your stud that you need for mice you can use. A male can breed to the end of his days, but if his son is a better mouse than he is, there’s no point keeping him. It sounds very harsh, I know, but that’s just how it is when you are breeding small animals for exhibition. If you are unable to kill mice, show breeding is not for you.
Inbreeding is the tool of choice.
Inbreeding is the only way to produce consistant winners.
If you want any kind of consistancy in the quality of the mice you’re producing you NEED to inbreed. INBREEDING IS NOT BAD! Some strains of mice have been bred brother to sister for a very long time with no new blood added and they are normal, healthy, mice with only one head and four legs.Inbreeding can only use the genes that are already there – if the genes are all good then you can only produce good stock from them. The problem comes in when there are hidden bad genes, when a dodgy gene is being carried down the family unnoticed. For example – you don’t know that the doe you’re mating carries a gene that produces mice with no legs. You mate her to a random unrelated buck, who unknown to you carries a gene to produce an extra pair of eyes. The offspring all turn out as healthy, curious little babies and grow up normal. This is called hybrid vigour, when the offspring of two unrelated parents are apparently healthy because they each only have one copy of the parents’ genes. Then, you breed a brother and a sister from the mating together and lo and behold, your kittens have no legs and four eyes. This is terrible, and the uninformed may well blame this on the fact that these mice were the product of brother/sister mating. What has actually happened is you’ve identified that the gene is there and therefore can avoid using any mice from that strain again.
Now imagine you’re breeding the best mice in the fancy, everything about them is perfect and they win time and again. There is no other stock as good, so there’s no way you’ll outcross to inferior stock for no reason! You keep inbreeding and because these mice are perfect they are hiding no bad genes, and bad genes don’t spontaneously appear. You will end up with generation after generation of perfect mice.
These scenarios are exaggerated obviously, but they illustrate that you have to inbreed if you want to produce good mice consistantly. If you don’t, you have no idea what kinds of horrible things are lurking unseen in the genetic make-up of your mice. At the very least, inbreeding brings these things to the surface and enables you to make a decision on how best to improve your mice. At the very best, inbreeding will cement in the good qualities you want to keep and produce consistant quality mice that will improve as you breed the best mice together through the generations.
The Japanese take it to a whole new level of depravity.
If excessive levels of inbreeding and culling weren’t enough, the Japanese have left their mark on mouse breeding too.
Fancy mice are mainly descended from the common house mouse (Mus musculus). Around 1905 existing fancy mice were crossed with pink eyed Japanese Waltzing mice (Mus musculus wagneir). This work, done by Darbyshire, introduced the pink eyed gene into the fancy, resulting in the creation of several new colour variations.
Here’s a video of what “Waltzing” looks like:
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The term Waltzing derives from Japanese waltzing mice, however there are many strains of waltzing mice known today. These mice have a neurological disorder which causes circling behavior. They almost always run in one direction, in a circle pattern, and it can sometimes get rather violent. Sometimes mice also have a head tilt in addition to circling. The circling is so severe that they are unable to walk in a straight line or run on a wheel. This type of waltzing is inherited and can sometimes be seen from the time babies start walking around. It increases in severity as the mice age. These mice generally don’t live very long. The term “Waltzing” is often used in the mouse fancier community as a blanket descriptive term for any circling behavior among mice.
So not only do they actively cultivate physical defects and give them cute names, they also seek out mental defect and propagate it across previously unaffected lines. But hey, it’s called “waltzing” and it comes with red eyes too, so it’s all good.
There’s so much in common between the dog fancy and the rodent fancy that I could pull quotes like this for hours. The ostensible difference is that dog breeders keep up the pretense that they are improving the stock for some greater goal than ribbon chasing and that the dogs are somehow being served by this endeavor. Mice have no similar utility to man outside the lab so the mouse fancy has no such pretense that they are serving any higher goal than ribbon chasing. They’re also brutally honest about the value of these mice as pets: little to none. Unburdened by the same societal pressures and scrutiny the Dog Fancy is under, the mouse breeders give us a fascinating glimpse into the mind of the breeder who chases ribbons but who existentially spends much more time throwing mice against the wall.
Scottie at The Retriever, Dog, & Wildlife Blog has an excellent post up analyzing this particular id and parallels with dog breeding.
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suspect you see similar in goldfish breeding and fancy chickens. You don’t see some of the physical structure variations that one sees in dogs as apparently canids are far more “plastic” than most animals in that regard. If someone came up with a 6 legged mouse that bred true, I’ll bet they would fast establish a line of them.
Yes, there are similarities to be had in the other breeding ventures, but they don’t usually fit the prestige and cost structures given their exotic status or from being in a different culture, such as Koi.
I wonder if show-rat breeders are more sentimental, given that rats have much more personality and intelligence?
That’d be interesting to look at. This post was originally going to look at both rats and mice, but I got so much horrific gold from the mouse breeders that it’s really only about them.
I think I’ll cover fancy rats in conjunction with the true history of the terrier breeds: blood sport in pits.
I’m just wondering if it’s just common that animals with little personality (mice, fish, reptiles) to be bred in this fashion.
The modern purebred dog breeding model was set up back when most people saw their dogs in the same way as these mouse people; killing pups you didn’t want was not considered odd, and dogs were more livestock than ‘family member’ even to many people who liked them.
As pet culture has evolved over the past 150+ years, it’s no longer compatible with the foundational attitudes that shaped the modern dog fancy and show system. The rhetoric dog breeders use has changed but the foundational system still rewards behavior similar to mice breeding. This might be one source of the cognitive dissonance so many show people have about their ‘sport’ and their dogs.
Well, to support your point, look at the outrage over the 14 year old footage in the One Nation Under Dog documentary that was lifted from Man and Dog. It seems to me that the overwhelming opinion by people commenting on the internet (take that for what it is) is that it’s inhumane.
Well, CO2 gassing is regularly used in mice, as that website confirms. That or throwing them against a hard surface or swinging them by the tail into a hard counter.
You do see some move away from the methods humans regularly use for wild pest mice though, kill traps and poisons.
I was a volunteer for the Bronz Zoo herp dept for 4 years. My first day I was told to kill probably 100 mice for snake and lizard food. I kept snakes at the time at home so I was familiar, but that day they also said the gasser was busted, so I had to do it by hand. Yep, hold by tail, rap head against end of the table. I was quick, for the sake of those mice. Doing it wrong is SUPER cruel.
By the time I was done I looked at that pile of mice I felt like complete shit. That’s what snakes eat, but wow, I felt like shit.
So much so that I scribbled the commment “Mauschwitz!” under the CO2 sign.
And THAT was for FOOD! For SHOW? I cannot fathom.
What a waste! At least feed them to your snake.
I know almost all studies have begun with mice and rats in labatories. However, this is a bizzare complaint IMO. Honestly, should be happy to get the word out. I would have never quessed …judging them…ribbons and trophies? Hey I am an advocate of the 4H but judging rodents?
Breeders of show goldfish and koi cull rentlessly.
But you have so many fry that hatch at one time that you almost have to.
retrieverman recently posted..New research on the genetics of ancient dog-like canids
I can tell you first hand that the reptile folks really go berserk with the color pattern breeding and take zero else into account. You never hear them once speak about investigating the impacts of inbreeding or no focus on vigor.
THe lucky neonates simply never hatch. Otherwise you get kinked tails, dual tails, kinked backs, lumps and bumps, two heads!
It was disturbing.
I went to a lot of herp shows for food mice and to look around. That was in the 90s. One day I walked into a show that occurs 4x a year by me, took a step back and took in the whole scene. The sheer number of amazing wild creatures, or those meant to be wild but bred in captivity, encased in demeaning, restrictive little plastic deli containers, gave me an ephiphany.
I walked out and never returned.
Chris I found of interest to note of culling that once was highly practiced when first dog breeding and showing was a Sport.
When we consider that breeding a litter to cull all but one or two new knowledge gained is total folly of ignorance. The issue of culling in dogs when I first learned of certain techniques put me into a cultural shock that still leaves me sickened. I must stress this is not the same situation as an emergency to end extreme suffering.
The cost factor of breeding specimens in dogs and cost of medical care again is another consideration that has baffled me. Dogs were stock animals then but today very few get to work in their intended jobs.
The Sport of breeding dogs in reference to then and now reference to culling is comparing apples and oranges? Where is the Sport now? Where has it gone when double merles are not only registered by the AKC but chosen as breeding specimens? Where is the Sport in breeding blind, deaf,crippled dogs? Eye candy? Did it not all start with Eye Candy?
I do not know about the rest of you but I see nothing pleasing to my eye. Bad top lines, pig eyes, gay tails, short in shoulder, and watching what must be painful movement. Breeding for patterns and colors…EYE CANDY.
We have run the phrase that eliminating for certain faults such as CEA or breeding for normal eyes is “Throwing the baby out with the bathwater” in collies into the ground. I prefer the new scientifc tools personally in full comprehension of why CEA is a mutation and how to prevent its creation.
I must admit having a mouse in my kitchen or my closet eating away will bring out the colder side of my character and value system. However, would not have a snake or a monkey as a pet either.
The cost of breeding a litter or the waste of a breeding to a worthy breeding Lassie should deter one could rationize in our modern world.
It wasn’t that long ago that in Germany breed wardens for GSDs would cull all but 4 or so of any given litter. China still pretty much doesn’t view dogs as anything but useful tools or an annoyance to eliminate. The cultural view in many Arab countries is also pretty much “tool” oriented. We tend to think that “our” view is a universal one, whereas it really isn’t.
Keep in mind that you see a lot of similarities in human body building, and in beauty pagents — obviously the “eugenics” part isn’t present, but the spend $$, exaggeration and even use of damaging drugs or surgeries to enhance success is very similar. Sports is yet another similar field where success often comes at a significant physical cost (80 year old former pro football players are rare).
There is undoubtably a deep seated physchology behind these kinds of competitions and those who participate in them. The difference in animals is that the manipulation of the genetics is within human control and is allowed — only recently were ANY real restrictions established.
Peggy you bring some very interesting points to the table especially noting three kinds of competitors.The physchology issues each harbor to gain in my mind’s eye for thier distinction of a winner. This being their focus rather than the love of an individual breed but only for personal self gradification.
I noted the unwanted number of breeds being adopted out into pet homes from local Shelters. These adopted owners reflected the health issues of these white background hybrids of varies breeds and the mounting Vet bills. Surely this will take its toll on all responsible breeders?
Came across familiar sounding argument FOR inbreeding . . . from a rat breeder
http://carawatha.tripod.com/inbreeding.htm
“It’s an age-old story, the one about the enthusiastic new fancier who’s just joined your club and is showing so much promise……..
Then one day you hear about this poor unfortunate soul, being ridiculed by the so-called responsible breeders in the group, because he decided, against the advice of his fellow fanciers, to inbreed some animals to improve type, colour, pattern or maybe even temperament.
Yes he gets the improvement of the colour etc., that he set out to do, but all of a sudden he has these sick or diseased or deformed animals in the litters. Maybe even stillbirths. Not knowing where they’ve come from or how this could have happened.
He’s being ridiculed for doing the “wrong thing” by inbreeding, and apparently “causing” these horrid conditions in the babies, when the blame really should fall on whoever it was that developed that line in the first place. What this new breeder has actually done without even knowing it, is perform a great service to the fancy, by illuminating these problems, so that now, work can begin towards eradicating them if possible. Other fanciers with animals from the affected lines are now aware of the possible problems also. ”
Anyone heard that before?
Scary how this writer emphasizes “FACT!”
The fancy goldfish larvae are often so deformed that active culling by the breeder may not be necessary, the deformities are often not compatible with long term survival. In addition other fish in the hatch that are culled are the ones that are more normal and not “fancy” enough.
Inbred strains of laboratory rodents are the norm rather than the exception. Many of the lab strains of mice and rats are so inbred that organ and skin transplants within a strain take without anti-rejection drugs. This is accomplished by starting out with a very large number of pairs of mice, rats etc and doing brother sister crosses for many generations. My genetics professor gave the example of starting with 10,000 pairs and doing brother -sister crosses repeatedly for 7 generations at which point you will have passed through the “inbreeding depression” keyhole and you would have 6 or 7 fertile and healthy lines left. The rest (9,993 lines) having fallen into an unbreedable status for multiple reasons. However in establishing these inbred lineages the only thing one can really select for is fertility and viability.
If one had enormous resources one could probably repeat this with larger bodied more slowly maturing mammal species – even dogs and humans – but trying to also select for other features – either features of working ability or features of mere cosmetic appeal – would not be possible.
This ability to afford to breed really large numbers of animals and cull is one of the major differences between trying to breed larger animals and smaller animals that are fast maturing. When trying to select for working ability the need to maintain and “test” the offspring for talent in the working traits increases the cost of breeding and selecting enormously.
In wild canids selection is very severe. On the average most wolves in the Yellowstone pack die before they are a year of age for example.
My feeling is that to breed for companion dogs one has to use the strategies you would use in ethically “breeding” humans . That is you any use breeding strategies that minimize the production of congenitally defective individuals to avoid suffering. Many countries forbid first cousin and closer marriages. What we do not do in humans is to actively encourage certain judged to be “desirable” people to have children. This is because history has shown us the unfortunate consequences of society managed eugenics policies. A real social hot potato!
This is directed at the author *Christopher*
Firstly the unauthorised use of a photograph in your article. I would like it removed please. Regarding your comments on *heavy metal bands on your coat* Obviously you have no knowledge of why this is so. If you had bothered to do a bit of research you would have found that the name of my stud is in fact *Metallica Stud* indeed named in tribute after my favourite band. The other badge is not a *heavy metal* badge at all but the Norwegian national flag…as I am of Norwegian descent and proud of my heritage.
In regard to culling young mice…it is a practise I have never done. At present I do not own any stock but when I did I fed the best possible food for my stock and they were kept in the most immaculately clean and healthy conditions. So you putting a photograph of myself on your article associates me with a practise I don’t do….so as I said remove it.
In regard to the comment that people keep certain varieties if they do not win…also untrue. Using myself as an example: I primarily kept Slf Blacks…woun the two biggest awards with them…then came a day that I was lucky to get an awrad with them…did I get rid of them? No I did not because I love the variety the best.
I have to point out that all you have wriiten is just plauguarism…you have just copied factual or not, true of not…off what you have read on the internet.
How may I ask can you make an acurate report of something you have never seen? You are based in America and you think you are in a qualified position to write about something in the U.K. You have never attended a show…in fact have you ever been to the U.K.?
To save anymore withering remarks: Viking Dave is a *nickname* I was given by real life friends years ago.
I acknowledge your wishes, but will not remove the photos. They are used under the Fair Use doctrine of the US Code. I would also point out that you have no standing regarding said photo because you are IN the photo and do not appear to be taking it using a remote means, thus you are entirely unlikely to be the photographer. Appearing IN the photograph grants you no copyright.
I’ve written about this issue here: £10,000 Pounds Sterling
Culling isn’t the only subject of my commentary, criticism, and satire. The entire concept of subjective judging of animals on esoteric and valueless grounds is also a point being made and the photo documents this behavior. It is appropriate and in context. Nothing is said about your particular behavior other than that which is in the picture, thus there is no libel or undo association with other practices.
As for plagiarism, the elements of this story which are the work of others is clearly highlighted with quotation boxes. The rest is my own text, from my own mind and written only with my own hand.
The rest of your comment is a logical fallacy appealing to special knowledge. If I’m wrong in my analysis you should be able to address my points directly instead of with an indirect and fallacious argument. That my body has or has not been on British soil is irrelevant to any argument I have made.
there are a few differences between the mouse fancy and the dog fancy though.Abnormal mice have been developed in labs for medical research not by people who wish to exhibit them.Mice with physical disability of any sort are not accepted,certainly Japanese waltzing mice wouldn’t be.Some varieties(developed in labs for research purposes)do have lethal genes with embryos not being born and the normal young born from these mice are acceptable.Merle mice are not made with the same gene that dogs are and the colour has none of the associated health problems.Although I recognise the point you are making regarding detachment etc the finger of blame or virtue (depending on your stance) for mice like the waltzers lies with the medical community,the mouse has been the most researched animal ever.
The purpose of this post is to shine a light on dog breeding more than criticize the mouse fancy, although this hasn’t stopped the person I quoted to remove her entire webpage in response to this article and, of course, the demands to remove the photos.
I have talked about those very lab mice you mention in this post: Those Inbred Lab Mice
If true, it’s interesting that “Merle” doesn’t carry the same issues in mice. I will note that the Red color in mice is known to produce health problems and colors like Black have significant effects on qualities like size.
Well I guess the site has come down because the material within has been used in a way that the author disapproves of and now has no control over,I wouldn’t be thrilled either.I have red and blacks.Reds absorb the non viable embryos in the womb no mutant mice are presented in litters ,blacks are only small in relation to exhibition animals they aren’t small compared to the average mouse.Probably a good comparison to breeding for looks at the cost of health would be in reptile morphs particularly geckos and ball pythons.They aren’t produced for show purposes but the ‘new’ colours command high prices.Fortunately there is no money in mice and the only real’abnormality’ bred for is size which is pretty self limiting as very large mice suffer from fertility problems and have to be outcrossed eventually.Anyway I see what you are getting at with your comparisons and I may be the king herod of the mouse world but I’m pretty appalled at the photos of eyeless dogs and dogs like clair kept in pitiful conditions to make money and it’s right that the public should know what they are buying into if they support such a trade.
Well by your own admission you have taken pieces from other people in your article. The question I would sk is how can you make an informed comentary on somehing you have no first had experience of?
Regarding the comment that you cannot produce winners unless you decide to cull, there are many examples and facts that show that this is totally untrue.
Viking Dave –
You really don’t understand Fair Use, Copyright, and Trademarks, do you? Nothing I have done is illegal, unethical, or even questionable. You, on the other hand, have misrepresented yourself and your business by using a Trademarked name, Metallica, as your own and using their logo as your logo. You are using that material to represent yourself and your work, your business. That’s illegal, given that it’s entirely unlikely that you licensed the name and logo for Metallica.
My commentary is NOT representing in any way that these images are MY WORK nor is the text MY TEXT. They are specifically quoted from freely published material for purposes of commentary, critique, and satire. This is Fair Use.
Your use is a clear violation of Trademark.
As for your question, I can read and think, Viking Dave, and that is exactly what is going on here. I analysed the published WORDS and photos and made commentary on them, as they are. I have first-hand experience of the published thoughts of this mouse breeder and that is what my commentary covers. I do not present any opinion on any content that would require first hand experience. I do not have to breed a mouse to comment on the published breeding ethics and behaviors of a mouse breeder. I do not have to throw one against a wall to form an opinion of this. I do not have touch a mouse with cancer to say that mice are better off without it, nor do I have to be blind to say that it’s better to have sight, nor do I have to jump off any of these metaphoric bridges to caution against the danger of doing so.
OUCH,, you guys are not exactly nice to each other. I was breeding mice while in junior and high school, and just now getting back into it. I have NEVER had thoughts of killing (or culling as you say) baby mice just to get so-called ‘better mice’. I much prefer to let nature take it’s course on that, and ENJOY the products of my little guys. I handle all my mice daily, they get the best food I can mix for them, as well as fresh veggies & fruits (most home grown!) They get vitamins in their drinking water, to ensure proper health, and if need be, my vet can handle mouse health issues. Just because a mouse got the sniffles,,why kill it? Seperate it and give proper meds and care. Shortly, the mouse can be returned to the colony happy and healthy again. I also give my mice more than just an excerise wheel, they also get ropes to climb, wood to cross over at hieght, and many other toys to keep them happy and healthy. I have one doe, prized above all others, because she was born a Feeder mouse for my bearded dragon, but the day she opened her eyes, I happened to be cleaning the tank, and she decided to climb up my arm to my shoulder, and sit there. Sonce then, she is my most PRIZED mouse, no ribbons, no shows, who cares? She will come when i call her and sit on my shoulder while I do things around the house. I am no striving to breed more Friendly mice like her, with improved size and health. Yes, I did purchase Pet Fancy mice for this fenture, still having my feeder mouse colony as well, hey, a Dragon’s got to eat too! But he eats his live, killing far much faster and more efficianlty than I ever could. I also breed superworms for his food, and my mice benefit from them as well, in getting healthy protien in thier diets, and they just LOVE their superworm treats.
You seem to be misinformed about the UK show mouse world
Mouse breeders cull babies because mice have big litters, mum’s can struggle and babies fail to thrive and end up under weight and sickly. So culling reduces the load on both mother and pups which results in bigger healthier mice. Many breeders will leave nature take its course which leads to females struggling to the point where they must kill there own young so they and the others can survive. Now just think which is better a quick death by human hands or eaten alive by mum?.
Also most who breed mice also have a use for culled mice as food for reptiles, birds of prey and other animals. So the mice need to be culled first before feeding.
Show breeders feed the best foods and house them in the best standards as if they don’t put in the work there mice won’t be in good enough condition to be shown, a show mouse needs to be in top health and condition, you won’t find greasy coats, fur loss, scratching, skinny mice, squinting eyes and other problems you see in pet shop mice.
As for advocating physical or mental defects that’s completely untrue, any mouse with any defect would not win at a show, back when the fancy was newer there were problems with some colours with waltsing ( the old trycoloured had it) but those mice were not fit to be shown and breeders either worked to breed the problem out or stopped using that line, the old tri coloured mice had that problem so breeders stopped breeding them now the current tri colours are made with combo of different colour genetics and don’t have any problems. Yes there are some colours that have problems associated with them, but any mouse showing any problem couldn’t be shown.
I don’t see my mice as pets as I also breed for good food instead of the skinny frozen mice sold in shops, so that means I have to cull them so getting too attached would make it impossible to cull with out risking doing it wrong. That doesn’t mean I don’t care about them, no one likes culling an animal especially if it’s healthy but it’s those health ones you need for food. I also show my mice and have won a few rosettes with them. My variety isn’t known as a winner you don’t see them winning the show often but I breed the one I like.
Is Blachthorn Mice not in and of the UK show mouse world? I quoted all of this directly off of their extensive essays. They appear to be a rather prominent mouse fancy person to me. They post frequently on several Fancy Mice forums and have thousands of posts. They wrote several essays and blog posts about mouse breeding ethics and practices. They have a rather extensive list of the shows they attended and the ribbons they won.
Are they not representative? Why should I think they are fringe or not typical?
Christopher, I think the resistance you are seeing is because the Animal Rights Activists are applying enormous pressure on rodent breedrs as a whole. A quick Google image search of “rat breeding racks” will reveal why the fanciers are being attacked by the AR. You can find whole websites dedicated to taking down suppliers of feeder-rats and fancy-rats.
I have forwarded this article to at least ten rat-breeders and fanciers from my herpetoculture days and they don’t have a problem with the article being published. I, myself, have tried my hands at breeding African Soft-furred Rats. However, they are all Canadians. We don’t have the same animal-right activism which is found in the United States, Europe or in the United Kingdom. No one has a problem with keeping them in racks or culling them as snake-food or monitor-food. A lot of the rat-breeding contacts of mine runs the rat-fancy breeding / feeder-rat breeding like a business: breed in surplus, pick the best ones for show and for pet, sell the second-best to pet-stores, cull the remainders for lab-purposes or for feeders in herpetoculture.
However, for some reason, you see a lot more resistance to this public portrayal in the United States. I think all the websites which are trying to shut down feeder-rat breeding facilities and lab-rat breeding facilities have something to do with it.
I don’t see anything in the article as morally wrong. They are being housed, fed and kept clean. There is little point in spending huge amount in expenditure for veterinary care because, statistically, the majority will not even live to be 2 or 3 years old in pet-homes. It seems only the most extreme animal rights activists have a problem with this. Even pet-owners are okay with this reality.
Does that make them evil? No. As long the rats are not being neglected or tortured. Mileage varies regarding what constitute ‘humane death” though. To me, I consider gassing them with CO2 humane. Some people consider severing the spine to be more humane than gassing: I don’t. Others think throwing them against the wall is acceptable. Do I consider this humane? One of the veterinary handbooks list this as an acceptable option for reptile-owners.
So I am not really sure why some of the rat-fanciers are offended by this article. Unless, they are worried about being attacked by the Animal Rights movement again.
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FancyMouseBreeder, you have seemed to miss MY point! ‘I’ do not brred my mice for shows, there are none where I live, ‘I’ breed my mice for health, size & temperament. I DO see my mice as pets, but i also have feeders to make sure my Bearded get TOP QUALITY HEALTHY mice for his diet requirements. As I stated, I grow my own veggies, and have my own fruit trees to feed my mice, making sure they do not get any possible pesticieds in their food. I get the best seeds & grains I can for them, top quality dog food kibble, not just somethign cheap off the grocery store shelf. I spend more money in the care and feeding of ALL my pets, reguardless if type or species! And so far, I have not had to ‘CULL’ any of my litters! My mice are healthy, both physically and mentally, they live excellent lives until the feeders are used for food, and my pets get a loving PET home. Since I am specialing in Angoras, you cannot use them for food mice, since most reptiles or amphibians cannot digest all that excess fur. I have also produced some very nice Silver Fox mice as well. But am I planning on showing my mice, Nope! So please get off your High Horse and READ what people say about their own mice beofre you start preaching that it is nessecary to cull litters for healthy mice, as I know for a FACY, that you do NOT have to do that if you take proper care of your mice as a whole, and not just for some fancy ribbon. How do you knwo that that pup you just culled, may have been yout top ribbon winner if you never gave it a chance? Since YOU seem to interested in winning ribbons with your mice. If you have mice, you cannot help but love them! Otherwise you sound like a pompus moron who has no care for an animals well being at all. Feeders are feeders, pets are pets, that is how it is. But of course some feeders just take hld of your heart, and they become a pet. Which in my case, happened. And she is a wonderful little girl who enjoys spending time with me, along with some of my prized Angoras. But I repeat, I do not look to win ribbons for my mice, just so peopel can say I breed excellent mice, that is alos why I quit showing my dogs. I don’t need ribbons to tell everyone my dogs are fantastic and meet all the ‘so-call’ breed standards to reach championship levels. All that fame means nothing, the betterment and healthyness of the species is the rewards, not the ribbons!
Yes they are but you seem to have take what they say out of context, yes breeders cull but it’s for the good of the mice as a whole so other babies and mothers don’t suffer from malnutrition ect.
Yes some varieties have a better chance of winning in show as they stand out better or have a better type just like some dog breeds have less chance of winning a show as there not as flashy as other breeds, so yes if some one would like to win a show they would be better breeding one of those varieties, many people join the club pick a breed that they can get locally then leave when they don’t win higher than there class. I’ve never won a show yet but that doesn’t bother me, one day I hope my mice will be good enough to. Many breeders will have more then one variety.
Yes mice are not popular pets and buck often will fight to the death so extras are culled to avoid fighting and overcrowding but as I said most breeders have a use for the culled mice as food spice need to be culled either way as live feeding is not advised in the UK it’s a grey area in the law, it must be a last resort but the rspca has said they will attempt to prosecute any they find doing it. The mice have the best of care and a quick humane end.
Yes there are diffrent colours and coats just like in dogs, but the club doesn’t just add them willynilly because they look cute, for a new variety to be added there is a lot of work to go threw to try to get it approved. A mouse if judged on more then just it’s colour, there’s it’s overall condition (so is it healthy) and its type. And mouse showing a health problem would not place. It’s people breeding for pets you see actively encouraging defects, I’ve seen them saying they want to be breed from a deformed mouse they have had born as its cute to see if they can get more, I’ve seen some breed sick does who were skinny to begin with then ask why she died. Show breeders only breed from mice who are healthy, if any did have a deformity it’s not bred, I’ve got a buck now born with a slight twist to his nose, some pet people would call him cute but he is deformed so will be going as food and his sire I no longer breed.
Reading what you have written makes out that people who show mice in the UK don’t care at all about the mice, only breed for cute mice and don’t care about health and cruelly kill them. Which is not true, a healthy mouse is not worthy of breeding or showing so breeders strive to only breed healthy animals, we cull for the grater good of all the mice, there is a strict standard on type and colour with good condition being the main factor, a fantastic looking mouse in poor condition I’ll lose to a less good looking mouse in top condition (unlike in the dog world with some judges). Breeders give there mice the best care.
You can’t compare the dog world to all other animals world’s as things that are acceptable in one won’t be in another, it’s fine to raise live stock as food and kill and eat them, that’s not fine in dogs, people with reptiles seem common to swap them for other colours or species again not fine in dogs, many race horses die racing again not fine in dogs.
At the end of the day the show mice don’t suffer, they get the best of care, have carefully breeding and when necessary a quick humane end according to practices acceptable for animals intended as food.
Oh, but I CAN and that’s the whole point. The reason I wrote this post and the others in the series is not to go take a dump on the mouse fancy but to use the mouse fancy to illuminate the dog fancy. I do not intend to make the PeTA argument that a mouse is a dog is a pig is a child argument. Rather, I find it interesting to look at how we treat mice versus how we treat dogs.
Of course people would be horrified if we treated dogs the way we treat mice. AND, interestingly, we used to in some respects. You can read old dog breeding tracts which demanded the dog breeders thin the herd just like mice breeders do. Large litters would be culled down to a size deemed more suitable to producing robust puppies without taxing the bitch too much.
Culling methods in all animal husbandry are under scrutiny over time. I see many people horrified with the “antiquated” treatment methods of Dr. Pol as SOP in veterinary care. These things are constantly changing and not always for the better, IMO.
Isn’t there a law in Germany where dog litters above a certain size have to be culled for the benefit of the bitch?
I don’t know if that means people can bottle feed the extras or if the normal choice is to put them down, though.
There used to be in West Germany.
If a bitch had more than six pups, you put the excess to sleep and raised the remainder.
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According to the USA (GSD club) website, there are differences between the American and German (SV) clubs.
http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breeding_regulations.htm
Number of Puppies in Litter
• SV Regulation: The number of puppies that a female may nurse is restricted to eight puppies per litter; the other puppies must be raised by a foster dam.
• USA Regulation: The dam may rear all puppies whelped.
In the past, it was probably the norm to simply kill the excess pups; perhaps it still is and the “foster mother” is a PC red herring.
Well what constitutes “caring” is rather subjective. And again, the point of the comparison. The Japanese CARE deeply about their Koi, but to produce one prized and well cared for Koi, they end up killing tens of thousands of other Koi that don’t make the grade.
So ostensibly, they are in the business of killing Koi, a lot of Koi. Same as with Mice, except the ratio is better. In mice it still seems that more are killed than cared for. Dogs I believe would have more cared for than killed. Horses even fewer are dispatched. Nice little continuum I’ve stumbled upon here, isn’t it?
Just to put in my two cents worth, although this is old it’s a very bias perspective and as a show mouse breeder myself it actually hurt a few times reading it. Not every breeder falls into this category, and I myself feel like I was somewhat attacked here just due to all of the generalizations and blanket statements. I take excellent care of my mice, and I am actually in the process of working on Blue Merles even though merle is one of the least likely to win shows and most likely to have awful type and coloration. I breed them because I love them and they reminded me of my favorite dog, which actually happens to be the Border Collie. Many people I am in connection with are breeding not for ribbons but to improve their breed as a whole and to eventually create amazing mice to show. The level of culling done by some people I will agree is over the top, I myself and many people I know only cull runts or those that look like they will not have a good chance of surviving or being placed in a good breeding program or pet home. I could go on and on about how wrong and hurtful I think this article is for all of us breeders that are actively working to create better mice and doing it because we love the creatures, not the awards. Believe me many of us dislike those people who breed solely for glory and recognition rather than for the betterment of their mice and the species as a whole, and some people believe those sorts of people should not even be allowed to breed at all. I’m sorry you’ve stumbled upon some of the worst parts of the mouse breeding community but I would hope that you won’t continue to stuff all of us into one very misleading category. Thank you :3!
I came across this randomly but being as I started in rodent breeding I feel I need to say something. First of all I despise show breeding in dogs – this is what caused the creation of flat-faced bow-legged bulldogs from what used to look like a lean agile pit bull 100-150 years ago (look up the paintings of the time period you’ll see what I mean.) Breeding achondroplasia (where the bow legs come from) as well as for a flat face have not done these poor animals any favors. They can’t even bite a flea off their own butt anymore. How depressing is that?!
That being said I started out in rats. Rat shows are rare in the US, especially after a few outbreaks of SDA which devestated a few ratteries. I only attended one and the catergories had nothing to do with color. There was actually a ribbon being given to “mushiest male” (in other words the sweetest one.) A LOT of attention was given to health because pet store rats most often were bred as feeders for other animals meaning no attention was being given to their long-term health, so long as they grew fat enough to eat without croaking first they were fine. Pet breeders changed this. I know, I was on the forefront of one of the most challenging varieties – furless. I had to cross breed them many generations to already established healthy furry lines to make sure they had a lessened chance of cancers, skin conditions, kidney failure, and generalized “failure to thrive.” I was proud when I got them to live just as long as the well bred furry counterparts.
I don’t know what breeding show mice is like but I think it should be noted that many rodent breeders sell their “culls” as pets, keep them because they’re not that expensive to feed, or occassionally sell them to feed other pets (though this is rare due to emotional reasons.) I culled my stock strongly, if one had even so much as a sniffle I would toss them out of my breeding program, which constitutes a cull even though they were not killed. It’s a very effective method of getting what you need and shouldn’t be slammed as a whole.
I recently got into chickens and decided ageinst going into show because I saw the same sick perversions I saw in the dog ring – i.e. the breed of chicken I am working with has the capability to function normally UNLESS you breed the “extremes” shown in the ring that stand so tall upright that their heads naturally lay directly behind their chest when they stand- almost touching their tails! I looked up if this did anything to their internal organs – it does – it malforms the ribs in a way as to rearrange them. I said nope, this isn’t for me. If I can’t say with a certainty that an animal isn’t suffering due to it’s looks then it is not worth breeding. I went back to breeding the same variety knowing none of my specimens would ever win ribbons, just hearts.
There are two kinds of people that show – those for who the show becomes an end-all sport, as you have described, and those who have genuine interests in bettering a breed that just happen to like shring their hard work, socializing with other breeders, or having somewhere to go on weekends, etc…. It’s not all bad people who participate. Really.
> Pet breeders changed this. I know, I was on the forefront of one of the most challenging varieties – furless.
This is very much like dog breeding culture: find a unique strain and turn it into its own breed. In general this means high levels of inbreeding and resulting lack of robustness. I’m not surprised that you found furless varieties to be lacking vigor. Not just because of any possible health issues related directly with the furless gene but because it’s entirely likely that when the gene arose in the population, the close relatives who expressed it were inbred and their offspring were inbred to keep expressing it.
Rats had never much interested me alive, until one morning I woke up and looked out the window and saw five extremely large pretty rats that seemed to be playing in the wisteria.
I keep love birds a nod to my colonial african past. I find them extremely intelligent, interesting amusing and loveable little parrots. I don’t breed them as such they do that all on their own all I do is introduce the odd new blood keeping them as they are, species pure and wild in colour.
Every evening I close up the bird house and every morning I open it up. The diminutive parrots spend most of the day coming and going busily from their bird house the main house garden and forests beyond. They collect all sorts wild fruit and nesting materials stuck in their rump feathers. They aren’t tame as such but extremely sociable, Im seen as just another member of the colony. They will often swoop out the trees to land on my head for a quick visit, or follow me around the garden from tree to tree chattering loudly. They don’t like or trust anyone else though and will scream blue murder if anyone comes into the compound. This includes the regular domestic workers when they arrive every morning who in fact even prepare their food so nicely and keep everything spotless for them.
The rats were spotty blue grey and white, huge, big fat tails with a rather elegant tall frilly collar of stiff forward facing hair that framed their heads like one of those fancy pigeons.
For a short week I was smitten with them, unusual attracts and all that and it also took me that long to work out that they were rats and not someone’s escaped pet possums.
Going to the bird house one morning soon after I noticed there was complete silence. This is very unusual as Im always greeted with a rising rapturous joy culminating in me opening the hatch as they stream out calling loudly as they go, circling the sky then vanishing as they dive into the thick forest canopy.
Instead all was sombre and a few birds were perched dishevelled on their perches, they couldn’t so much as manage a feeble tweet which is saying something for an Agapornis.
I went straight inside as it was obvious all was not right. As soon as I did I saw rats flying in all direction, coming out from behind and out of nest boxes just from every corner. They were trapped some flung themselves against the wire but all managed to escape eventually out of the open door.
The poor birds had been terrorised all night and most of the chicks were murdered some half eaten. It was heart breaking, I felt their devastation completely and utterly. They didn’t even want to go out that day, but plucky little characters that they are the next morning it was business as usual and I found them reorganising noisily and ready to face the world again as best as possible.
So much for fancy rats, I immediately reinforced the hatch as that’s where they must have managed to squeeze in and laid rat poison, within a a few days there was no sign of them anymore except for the odd straggler who in dying had dragged itself into the open.
Someone must have abandoned their pet rats in the forest and they hybridised successfully with the forest rats. Im not sure but the result was spectacular and a complete disaster.
I never use poison to control vermin as we have spectacular birds that eat rats and mice, owls mini ones and giant fishing eagle owls plus all sorts of other bird predators and reptiles python and monitor lizards, mongoose etc. A poisoned rat can easily end up killing a predator yet I the council lays poisoned bait near every refuse collection point once a year completely indifferent to my foreign rage.
This was an emergency in my case and I’ve never had to repeat. The wild forest rats and mice are not a problem.
If that judge has a Norwegian flag with a Dimmu Borgir logo, does he breed mice with a corpse paint pattern? Black metal mice sind krieg.
Hi Chris
While reading your mouse post, I wondered if you had purchased an out-of-copyright old dog book, and changed the word “dogs” to ” mice”. That’s how much it reads like an old how-to-raise-showdogs book.
But I guess this is just another example of Freak Animal Shows. There are shows like this for plants too, like warped cucumbers, giant pumpkins, long but too tough to eat green beans etc. Doctor Frankenstine? Something like that.
I read through the comments. The show mice breeders take the bait quicker than the more jaded dog breeders do anymore, but they are too new to this to understand that the point isn’t about mice, or goldfish, etc, but about dogs, but that the point often has to be illustrated using other animals because dog breeders are ‘kennel blind’ meaning that they can’t see the forest because of all the trees, that they stare at the subject like a person looking into a microscope at just the toe of a bug – he walks away never having seen the whole insect because he was looking too close.
Just as a person could say that mouse shows are an easier form of kennel shows, it is often said that dog shows are a poor man’s form of horse shows. It takes land to breed show horses. I have hear that this is why exhibitors trot their dogs around the ring, because gait is what horses are about. Temperament is what dogs are really about.
See which of the two the dog shows judge? Obedience rings are a distant second to conformation shows, perhaps because dog shows give the exhibitors the feeling that they are actually high hats with grand estates and stables?
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One thing that you have almost certainly failed to research adequately is the difference between a litter that has been culled down to 4 vs. a full litter of 12 or more. The size difference alone is shocking. The mice from the culled litter grow so much larger then the unculled litter. The mice from a culled litter are also much more healthy than the mice from an unculled litter. Oftentimes you will get a bunch of runts that wither away and die anyways — is it not better that you, there owner, quickly end there suffering? Is that not more noble and kind than the alternative?
On the topic of inbreeding, mice are indeed different from other animals. Inbreeding with only good stock will only give you good stock. Mice in a laboratory setting are regularly paired up and bred with there brothers and sisters for 30+ generations. That is how you create a successful strain/line. And for the record, inbreeding is a tool that people have been using since the dawn of time. It’s used rather extensively in everything from plants to racehorses. Fact is, inbreeding to elite individuals creates better animals/plants/whatever.