If you missed RealSports with Bryant Gumble’s report on the ethics of breeding AKC dogs last night on HBO, fear not! Border-Wars worked with the producers over the last several months to document the issues in pedigree dogs with images and scientific studies and the result is a very compelling segment. Of course the issue deserves its own full length documentary, but this is pretty solid for 15 minutes.
The complete segment with Soledad O’Brien can be viewed right here:
..
Be sure to check out the Bryant Gumble’s FB post and Soledad O’Brien’s FB post for some amazing levels of denialism from AKC apologists.
Bryant, Mary Corillo, and Soledad also did an “overtime” discussion on the dog breeding situation, also not to miss!
..
You can see the AKC’s “response” video, too, it’s sadly unconvincing. Count how many times the apologist says “Happy Healthy Dogs!”
..
This AKC Veterinarian claims that she sees a lot of healthy bulldogs as a reproductive specialist! Note, 80-90% of Bulldogs can not whelp naturally and surgical intervention is required to deliver their puppies. How on earth can anyone who cuts open bulldogs day in and day out to do what most other breeds do without intervention claim that they are healthy?
* * *
Comments and disagreements are welcome, but be sure to read the Comment Policy. If this post made you think and you'd like to read more like it, consider a donation to my 4 Border Collies' Treat and Toy Fund. They'll be glad you did. You can subscribe to the feed or enter your e-mail in the field on the left to receive notice of new content. You can also like BorderWars on Facebook for more frequent musings and curiosities.
* * *
Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
I think these stories would be better…more credible, if the reporters got all of their facts straight. The AKC has no ‘members’. They are a club of breed clubs and those clubs have members.
There is no doubt AKC can change whatever they want, they have in the past. In the early 90’s breed standards were reformatted and it was mandatory.
Wayne Cavanaugh, on the other hand, is quite the flip flopper. I’ll leave his motivation for others to determine, but when the AKC was trying to register the Border Collie (which BTW, the studbook is STILL open on) I confronted him at the Portland Kennel Club show where the AKC was making a presentation and asked him why AKC was INSISTING on a conformation standard for the premier working dog, the Border Collie and asked why AKC wouldn’t agree with some to demand a working test or evaluation before awarding a conformation championship and he told me that “their” experts said it should be the other way around. A few years later I wrote to him when he was made President of the UKC asking him to organize a herding program for UKC like the performance programs they have for other groups and I never heard back. He is still the same guy. He just represents the U’s instead of the A’s.
The “club of clubs” argument is a distinction without a difference. The AKC has the power, they collect the money and they issue the pedigrees and the awards. In fact the AKC has no trouble hand picking their own people to form a breed club and designating them as the official club. So they have plenty of power over breed clubs just like the Federal Government has plenty of power over states.
The Border Collie stud book is still “open” only in the sense that you can bring in Border Collies that are already registered with the ABCA. You can’t actually outcross and bring those dogs in. Why? Well because the AKC didn’t capture much of the gene pool at all with the Border Collie and there’s no real reason to close the books.
Wayne made a good case in the video, but he’s only starting reforms, it’s not like he gets a pat on the back for accomplishing ANYTHING yet. There are no substantial differences with the UKC, save the rather important one that Wayne isn’t making excuses and claiming that nothing is wrong and that nothing should change. That’s rather huge, and even if it’s just a ploy to steal AKC market share, so what? I’d like to have at least one good registry and the UKC isn’t it yet, but it might be if it goes in the right direction.
Accuracy is important to credibility. I got the feeling the reporters didn’t know what they were talking about. Even though I agree, for the most part, with the general theme, I think it would help if they got all the facts right. AKC is run by the delegate body, which is made up of delegates from each member parent club. If the delegate body doesn’t approve of it, then it doesn’t happen. The Board is elected by the delegates. So “the AKC” IS the breed clubs. There IS a difference.
For example, it is true that AKC approves judges, but they don’t educate judges, the parent breed clubs do. I know this because as the VP for a member parent breed club I not only educated judges (boy did I piss off some people) but I organized breed education. I also organized and participated in ‘form follows function’ demonstrations for breed judges. I can tell everyone, judges won’t make the sweeping changes the neophytes in this expose’ expect. Judges want assignments. They are hired by the clubs and if the clubs get a bunch of complaints, those judges will not be hired and they won’t be promoted to groups or ultimately best in show. The other rather large elephant in the room is the PHA or Professional Handlers Association. They control everything from judges to parking and they in turn become AKC reps and employees. There is a lot of rot to be carved off.
The people defending Bulldogs has having ‘always looked this way’ ALSO didn’t know what they were talking about. Or else they were outright lying, since anyone with two braincells and access to Google Books or Internet Archive can find a treasure trove of late-1800s/early-1900s dog books and magazines by respected dog-fanciers of those days commenting on how the ‘modern show bulldog’ had changed from it’s original type, as well as plenty of photographic evidence. The blatantly cherry-picked revisionist history they tried to push in that interview is appalling.
You got the feeling the reporters didn’t know what they were talking about? They are not experts on the inner dealings of the registry’s hierarchy of breed clubs, and I think that’s a bit besides the point, considering that the main gist of this short segment is on extreme phenotypes that translate into suffering.
I got the *very distinct* feeling that the so-called “experts” – AKC spokesman and veterinarian – were utterly and completely incompetent. So if accuracy is important for credibility, the AKC has none in my mind. The statement that a breed standard is a blueprint for a healthy animal is complete BS.
I happen to agree with Christopher and many others on the real problems generated by breeding dogs for conformation and in some cases artificial performance events.
The problem for me is how some of these exposes are presented. Have you ever heard or seen a well reasoned argument that suffers from poor communication skills, poor spelling or grammar?
It doesn’t take much to destroy credibility, does it? The AKC spokesperson and Veterinarian are excellent examples of this concept. I don’t think Soledad O’Brien or Bryant Gumbel’s presentations were any better. Much of the information was certainly factual and conveyed the message well, but holes in accuracy are places where the opposition will find footing, just as you correctly did with the AKC people. Accuracy is important. If anyone hopes to change the behavior of the registry, then understanding the hierarchy and how it functions is key to that goal.
Maybe you want to fact check before putting this response up. Like the “veterinarian” you speak of, look up her true credentials. Real sports had so many errors and misspoke so many times it was almost funny, almost. Soledad just showed that her hatred of dogs is more than true, and yes true journalists should have SOME knowledge of the subject…Oh wait, they aren’t true anything, especially not fact checkers.
Name the errors.
Agreed. The larger point was the genetic suffering of these animals.
The show people live in a world where their goals have nothing to do with the public at large. Easy to keep your head in the sand when you are in your own microcosm.
However, they have to unload their “pet puppies” on somebody. That’s where the general population comes in, and that’s where convincing them that only the show set has “reputable” breeders and that health testing solves everything, and that they are genetic experts ( when that is so far from true most of the time), affects the continued proliferation of substandard dogs. If you can dump your undesirables, you can continue your little hobby.
It’s always been a hard, uphill trek to get most people to catch on to what is wrong. And then there’s the AR groups waiting to hop on the bandwagon and take credit for pointing out genetic cruelty. But that’s no reason to give up.
There is still always a hope to make rational thought a household item. That’s why COSMOS was brought back to prime time TV.
“There is still always a hope to make rational thought a household item”
And why not.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/data/pages/37/5f55b052f205edf3794505ccb418d05e513676bce687a.pdf
A call to rational thought in America!
Thank you Craig for explaining to those who belong to AKC Breed Clubs but do not realize it is the AKC Delegates that really do not have elect. Maybe now some out there will get the message. Thanks again.
Now Christopher I adore your articles and agree with much of what you say, but to say the UKC has not made any actual changes is a bit ludicrous in my opinion. I can’t help but ask if you’ve ever attended the Premier, or at the very least a UKC show? The Premier in particular is really something to see, I was surprised the first time I made the trip up there to compete with my dogs to watch the German Shepherds enter the conformation ring, BEAUTIFUL dogs with strong hocks and level toplines — incredibly different from the cripples I’ve met at AKC shows. This is the direct result of the standard changes implemented as well as judging seminars.
In addition, within the UKC community performance titles are oftentimes regarded as equal to or even above conformation titles in value. There is also less of a split between working and show dogs, in fact the number one top ten border collie for quite a few years was Old Oaks Fuego, who was bred entirely from working cattle dogs and is a working cattle dog himself (and looks absolutely NOTHING like the AKC show borders https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.186653771356710.43640.155353274486760&type=3 ) . I’ve also seen field bred setters and goldens find success in the conformation ring, who also are oftentimes double titled. And let’s not forget the UKC coonhound events, which are held in higher regards than almost any other event in the UKC and is predominantly performance-based.
Now from what I can tell you are an open-minded person, but if you are not actually within the UKC community you are not getting the full picture. Does the UKC still have it’s issues? Absolutely, but they have made some great steps towards improvement that need to be taken into account. I respect Wayne immensely and what he has done for dogs, and how he gave up on the cultish attitudes of the much of the AKC (remember, he was formerly a part of the AKC) and has taken risks and gone against the grain for the sake of dogs. He hasn’t fixed everything, he isn’t even close, but he’s taken some grand leaps.
And if you haven’t already, if you get the chance attend the Premier, it is truly the Woodstock of dogs, and I think it would sway some views of the UKC.
I went to a UKC Premier. It was incredible. Though I was there with Chinooks, I wandered and asked, many, many, breeders, esp of rare breeds, about their dogs.
EVERY single one of them told me what was wrong with their lines, and in 4 cases said their dogs were a sorry example of the breed.
I haven’t been so inspired about dogs, ever. The terrier races, the rocket dogs, everything really made me think about breeders in such a different way.
It was so incredibly hot and I felt that somehow, I had finally gotten the truth about several breeds and had a lot of fun doing it.
Great, another UKCer! You said you have Chinooks? Chinooks aren’t my breed (I have border collies) but didn’t the UKC set up an outcross program for Chinooks? Correct me if I’m wrong, like I said it’s not my breed so I never looked into it.
Yes, there is a crossbreeding program, but the breeders, out crossed with a husky, (a mistake) and kept inbreeding to the cross line!
We are trying to outcross differently, but many breeders just keep inbreeding to the crossbred lines. New rules must be set up with UKC.
Some sy it will take 2 years to start diverse lines with new cross lines.
Breeding goes on the wah it has been.
Britain
What a shame. I would definitely like to see someone (my most hopes lie with the UKC, it seems the AKC is, sadly, too far gone) put a limit on COI. And more outcrossing in ALL breeds would be of benefit. Isn’t that how cat breeding works? Despite the fact I find cat showing to be absolutely useless, similar outcross programs would be of benefit in dogs.
Im not so sure I understand the value of “rare breeds” like these or why they need to be registered with anyone other than maybe a breed club?
If they are worth saving for some reason, why not just do as the original breeder did, play around with various breeds. What Alaskan Husky breeders do.
Why does it need to look like Shanook himself. There are soooo many useful sled type mixes around as far as I can see?
Its interesting the Shanooks on the internet look a lot like the generic yellow dogs in China, village dogs. They are very hardy rangy dogs that freely breed between villages and themselves. The type varying slightly depending on what gets brought in by way of the odd abandoned or informally kept pedigree dog like a German Shepherd influence or the odd mastiff more recently Belgian Shepherd etc.
Always seem to end up returning to a big yellow feral type dog with variable ear set.
“Its interesting the Shanooks on the internet look a lot like the generic yellow dogs in China, village dogs. They are very hardy rangy dogs that freely breed between villages and themselves. The type varying slightly depending on what gets brought in by way of the odd abandoned or informally kept pedigree dog like a German Shepherd influence or the odd mastiff more recently Belgian Shepherd etc.”
Anton, I have always called the Chinook, Old Yeller, for obvious reasons. Yes, they do resemble village dogs and some are trying to change the Xbreeding rules of UKC. I am questioning my choice of rare breeds. Because by the time you choose one, they are already damned. I was thinking of a Shikoku, I’ve had many offers but have chosen to sit back and witness the future. Japanese inbreed like crazy with this breed. I am questioning my choice of rare breeds at all.
The reasons I started looking into the Chinook had partly to do with that generic, mutt appearance, and then the disposition. Seemed like a great dog. I was dismayed by the gene pool and the idea that ANY breeders would not comply with outcrossing. It didn’t take long for me to come across an AKC “Breeder of merit” that claimed there was nothing more wrong with Chinooks than any other breed, then used the “Success” of clumber spaniels as an example! WHOO! What a great example. Eye issues, spine issues, etc. Yeah, nice attitude.
I have yet to attend a UKC show, but it’s on my to-do list.
I know the person you are talking about. It was her dream to get Chinooks to AKC. I have had many discussions with her, to no avail.
More truths are stinger than fiction about the “breed”
Now they have been in Westminster, the AKC breeders can feel a divine appointment from above or below.
I don’t know about America – but in the UK it’s possible (or used to be possible) for a non-BC to be entered into the ISDS (international sheepdog society) stud books as ROM (registered on merit) if it wins an ISDS sheepdog trial. I believe it would then be allowed to breed with the ISDS border collies and used in pedigrees (with the offspring being able to be registered with the ISDS as if they were normal purebreds). So far there is only one non-BC ROM example I know of – a bearded collie registered in 1984. His offspring’s offspring are still around (they look like wire haired BCs).
I wonder if this option still exists? Or perhaps after that beardie was entered they decided to close the books to anything but border collies? The wording of the ROM now does seem to suggest only border collies are welcome to apply.
I think all stud books should have an option like this where dogs from other breeds (or even mongrels) can prove themselves and be added to the books. Obviously this is only relevant to working bred dogs, not conformation / show types.
The real saving grace behind all of this is that AKC dogs are a minority of the US population and show dogs are an even smaller minority.
This isn’t like Europe, where the clubs have state or royal patronage (even though Queen Elizabeth crossbreeds corgis and dachshunds!)
So we still have an anarchy of dog breeding.
The real question is how we use that freedom.
Do we use it to destroy the old fancy and its cult members through producing superior products?
Or do we allow freedom to become a way getting rich quick through the mass production of man-eating puggles?
So the AKC is a lot like a church body. It has only authority over its members.
retrieverman recently posted..“Happy, healthy dogs”
Money/commerce is the slave master. Not exactly freedom or socialism? Royal patronage simply means the KC for example has to be more worried about its image and in fact more accountable than the AKC who is more or less accountable only to itself and bank balance.
Patronage doesn’t imply funding by her Royal self or control in any way shape or form but does have the distinct advantage in that their modern Royal selves tend to side with popular opinion and for obvious reasons. If that opinion is negative she will frown making the KC squirm. Even worse/better she could if there was no improvement remove her patronage entirely which would be tantamount in effect to what the public funded BBC did when it dumped covering Crufts on public opinion.
The queen despite now paying tax is still heavily publicly funded as are her family. A peoples rather than civil servant if you like. I don’t think any dog clubs are state funded or even subsidised.
Im betting my money the queen frowns soon if she hasn’t already on this whole sordid affair. She bred/s dogs but is an even keener breeder of race horses which she takes great personal pleasure in and close involvement with, and will certainly be following these matters of breeding genetics closely.
Besides the odd mistake producing a “dawgy” from a corgi “We” are still almost sure ones interest in this have been sufficiently piqued.
The AKC get’s special tax treatment. That is one vulnerability that hasn’t been exploited. So do the dog clubs in that they are not for profit. (that’s not non-profit, which is something different). Think about all the show money generated that is not taxed…..
Right again Craig as far as I know of Corporate Law and Non For Profit Corporation Law status. Seems we can find the same Corporation Law Status within all the Adoption and Rescue institutions as well? It is like Corporations within Corporations so to speak. So who really has the “Deep Pockets”. Well, we know the most of those in Breed Clubs participate with memberships to Health Foundations. Those that utilize genetic testing also pay again for the testing. The same members do volunteer work. Seems like quite a profitable set up to me with little if any labor cost. We know how it works with the big salaries and benefits with the some of the Adoption and Rescue Institutions?
Yes and the overloaded salaries it pays itself.
There’s no way to profit than like through a non-profit!
I was ordained a minister online in seconds via some “Universalist” church. I only did it to prove how authority via a “church” is just another human conception, it being, whatever we choose it to be. I believe their only philosophy was something like “live and let live.” I’m fine with that.
But hmmmm. Maybe I should start a church offshoot! I could use the dough.
In isolated populations like Long Island, loads of people get their dogs from AKC show dog stock. Once people migrate out here, they tend to stay here. There’s no big livestock to speak of and relatively few hunters, and of those, only bird hunters would be able to use dogs. Plus the only non AKC dog sports venues usually have to do with protection sports.
So it’s either mutts, or AKC dogs. I don’t think a lot of people here even realize there are other options.
Now let us take into consideration this document of the AKC Mission Statement. Now the date of Amendment in 2013 from 1909. Delegates represent the breed club at the AKC meetings. Most Members of Breed Clubs are not aware themselves who is actually runs their figure head officers of their Breed Club.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RCNA01.pdf
The show ring/ unhealthy dogs is becoming more prevalent view all the time. I haven’t a clue why health tests are not mandatory before registration, as some European countries do. I love Jemima Harrison’s blog.
With the Chinook Breed, a bastard breed if ever there was one, I grew up with the old Chinook, still inbred and run by showmen. UKC does allow crossbreeding and AKC sits on its silly horse making them pure. After genetic analysis, Chinooks don’t have a place to go BUT cross. Carol Beuchat ran the Chinook Pedigree Project (a part of the Global Pedigree Project) and we were left with no place top go, BUT cross, yet breeders are breeding the same old COI’s with “purebred” Chinooks.
I love receiving your blog. Thank you, Britain
Britain Hill, I had the displeasure of emailing back and forth with a Chinook breeder that deeply denied Chinooks were in any trouble or were any worse off healthwise than any other breed. Sadly, she compared them to the Clumber spaniel as if it were a GOOD thing.
Then she asked me how one can LOSE genes?
I really wish anyone who bred Chinooks were made to listen to the Pedigree project and the importance of outcrossing. People with such a small knowledge base should not be breeding dogs.
I’m not particularly hopeful about people breeding dogs. The problem being they use the wrong metric (winning at a dog show) as the measure of success.
In the old days winning was important, but kennels kept a lot of dogs and had programs to put selective pressure on newer and better sires. Not to be sexist, but improvement could occur faster through sires with dams being important but secondary because sires could cover endless numbers of dams while dams could only be bred once a year (for the reputable breeder anyway) and twice a year for the a-holes. This selective pressure involved actual knowledge of genetics, modes of inheritance and (gasp) the mathematics of probabilities. Even among the most devout dog people these days, if I bring up punnett squares, mendelian ratios, partial penetrance, polygenetic inheritance and inbreeding coefficients I can actually see people’s eyes glaze over. The vast majority of those we refer to as breeders don’t keep enough dogs to breed right, they don’t associate with enough people of like mind and goals to breed right and in not doing so they continue to radically narrow the gene pools of their chosen breed with fewer and fewer improved sires. Quite the opposite, they breed for ribbons in a meaningless pursuit (I can’t use the word ‘sport’) with both sires and dams of lesser and lesser qualities healthwise AND any other meaningful measure of quality be it health, reproduction, conformation or function. Those that do have enough dogs to perform this task (puppy mills) are focused solely on profit through numbers and couldn’t give a rip about health or quality, they make their money on volume, and health, (other than reproductive health) be damned. The days of the old kennel masters with actual knowledge of animal husbandry are long gone.
Isn’t that faster improvement through sires you speak of, what leads often to popular sire syndrome? And does that not in in its own way, have a tendency to lead to lower diversity?
Actually no, because there are many more sires in large kennels and there is an ongoing process to replace the best sire(s) with still better sires. Faster improvement through sires is a statistical fact because sires can cover almost unlimited dams while dams can only physically whelp twice a year and ethically and medically, once a year. Popular sire syndrome IS the current model because there are no old school kennels left that are putting constant statistical pressure on replacing existing sires and dams on a constant basis. This is because so-called “breeders” are just breeding whatever they have, which for most fanciers is a handful of dogs. In addition, and more importantly, they base breeding decisions on the wrong criteria which is the phenotype of the sire and dam. The correct criteria to make breeding decisions is the genotype, which can only be known (with the exception of a the few available tests) by test breeding, rigorous record keeping and mathematical analysis of the data from a large enough sample to make educated decisions based on said data. I’m willing to bet that you can’t name even one kennel with a large enough population and the required data to make such decisions based on get. Most so-called breeders have at most a handful of dogs and breeding decisions are based on a few tests and a few ribbons. This is the recipe for popular sire syndrome, not the solution to it.
Urban Collie Chick!
The horror of the Chinook Situation is that Carol Beuchat did an analysis with the Chinook Pedigree Project and the stats are now being seen by scientists. But meanwhile, breeders just keep breeding HIGH COI’s and that up to 90% considering the endless inbreeding from the beginning!
I have a long haired Chinook with health problems. But for the moment they have subsided.
There are 2 people listening and working hard at bringing in the the results and paying attention, but the AKC sect thinks nothing’s wrong, dum dee dum! The UKC allows crossbreeding but the breeders haven’t stared that after past cross lines where inbreeding to the max was encouraged. BTW, I introduced the notion of the late great Dr Armstrong, but no one paid attention. I grew up with a Chinook from the 40’s. Even he was inbred, but looked much more of a historical freighting sled dog.
As we know, this is only one breed and there are so many. I was made to promise never to show dogs by my wise Mother. What a vain and destructive
force and I do know a couple of great breeders who show. Just not for me.
I am condemned for NOT breeding (at the cost to the dogs) I am glad I waited. My other breed is Akita, and I will not start on that breed.
True dat BH! And I juuuuust realized I posted comments to this today, forgetting I already made all these other comments earlier! LOL!
Maybe I should check out my COI and see what’s ailing my memory. 😉
Yes I agree with Britain Hill “the show ring/unhealthy dogs is becoming the more prevalent view all the time.”
A success for these type of broadcasts. Though there was a fair amount of drivel there but it didn’t serve to distract or confuse much.
“Working show dogs can’t even work anymore” not exactly relevant for show dogs or working dogs or to the point but still true anyway.
I wasn’t left wondering if the AKC was the breed clubs or not, but was wondering about suffering animals namely those poor little bulldogs with their huge pleading eyes looking upward. It’s simply quite dreadful to think they could turn blue and roll over dead because they are bred so horribly disfigured by show breeders. That’s what I got out of it.
True a lot more could’ve been achieve if the presenter (interviewer) had just a little more information/ability or maybe rather was an expert in the field. For sure a proper debate with a panel of experts and the AKC would be good.
Those AKC reps were complete idiots, they seemed shell shocked. Healthy happy dogs and a very weak apologist. This came across in the desired negative light and with absolutely no effort. Perhaps not everyone could tell, though?
I thought the independent expert was good enough though it might have helped if he was American, not sure.
“Those AKC reps were complete idiots, they seemed shell shocked. Healthy happy dogs and a very weak apologist. This came across in the desired negative light and with absolutely no effort. Perhaps not everyone could tell, though”
Read more: http://www.border-wars.com/2014/04/watch-realsports-unnatural-selection-on-akc-dogs.html#ixzz2ztnCBU35
Anton you make the identical observation that I did. I can hear the knees knocking and the hidden hands shaking. Note the Code of Silence: “Just be quiet and they will go away” “Don’t give them any fuel for the fire”.
Can imagine the “Think Tank tactics” being discussed ..can you? I believe the media approach will get better informed to how Pure Breed Dog Clubs operate like Corporations with stock holders so to speak. It is a complex social network unfamiliar to most Americans.
The corporate structure of the AKC is identical to the U.S. government, which shouldn’t be unfamiliar to most Americans but sadly is on both fronts. The clubs run the same with a set of by-laws (a constitution) an Elected Board of directors (the legislature) and officers which consist of a president (executive), vice-president, Treasurer, Secretary, and then a host of standing committees that carry out tasks approved and budgeted by the board, which in most clubs are overseen by the VP who reports monthly to the board.
It’s pretty typical corporate structure. These clubs are incorporated in the state where they do business and registered with the IRS as not for profit.
Many of them have rescue committees as part of the not for profit organization. Contributions are NOT tax deductable. Many other clubs have formed rescue organizations that are *NON-PROFIT* 501c3 corporations which is something entirely different from not for profit. The not for profit parent clubs can participate in promotion and political action, while the NON-PROFIT 501c3’s are strictly charitable and can take tax deductable contributions.
Thank you Craig because if I tired to tell folks this…they would not believe me.
The problem most Breed Clubs have difficultly is that the original Corporate structure of a 501 c did not include in the charter for Rescue. So like the Collie Club of America a separate non for profit had to instituted. If this activity of Rescue was not in the Constitution and Charter no taxable deductions for contributions.
You see Craig the Collie Club of America was formed in 1886 when the AKC as you read did not form its institution documentation until 1908. http://www.collieclubofamerica.org/club_history.html for example.
This Breed Club was formed in New York non for profit Corporation laws and remains to this date as such. Under American Corporation laws to drop this Corporation it has been deeply discussed. The use of the Corporate name could not be used for seven years by anyone. No one today would chose New York state laws to incorporate due to the complex State laws that seeking guidance of a good corporate lawyer.
So what do Club members like this do when original Constitution, Charter and By Laws does not either allow for tax deductions for contributions or cover activities of interests such as herding etc. They form yet another Non-for- Profit under the sanction of the breed club. So the breed ends up with all the special interest lobbyist so to speak. Smooth Collie Club, International White Collie Club, American Working Collie Association, and it goes on and one
Love the fact that Cindy is a reproductive specialist and she says she sees healthy Bulldogs, so she does not think that not being able to reproduce without assistance (getting pregnant, to giving birth) as a health issue.
Cindy, healthy dogs don’t need a reproductive specialist to help them with reproducing or even a manual.Lol
Yah that’s encroyable.
This sort of response could make one believe they are still in straight out flat denial.
However generously assuming Cindy actually for one moment does believe in what she is saying then it has to be something of an indictment of the veterinarian profession as a whole.
Even though Cindy is not in any way presented as being representative of the profession as a whole in America one must be left wondering how many do actually think like her, if it’s the majority? In other countries too. How much of a vets bread and butter is in fact due to the crippling health of pedigree dogs and could this be an incentive to turn a blind eye.
This in a nation with a current national caesarean section rate well over 30% maybe Cindy sees it like the medical profession does.
Despite World Health Organisation evidence that caesarean rates as low as around 5% are the optimal. Those reaching 15% and above in fact causing more harm than good it’s still above the whacking 30% in America and rapidly rising and has nothing to do with the ability or health of American woman to give birth naturally.
https://www.childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ck=10456
That’s bellow 5% that are medically necessary. The incentives for the rest appear to be all financialy motivated at the end.
The reproductive problems of Bulldogs might hardly even seem an issue with these kinds of national figures for human births?
Could it be that Cindy honestly cannot see that major invasive surgery is not in fact optimal for any animal, never mind all the other reproductive problems these dogs face because it keeps her and others in biusness?
Promoting the Show English Bulldog as a healthy happy dog at this stage in pedigree dogs exposed does however seem a little thick.
Jane, do you own an English bulldog, because I have three. My ten year old English bulldog is as healthy as he can be, he runs the yard everyday several times, he plays tug-of-war non stop for 45 min. or more and etc. Has never had one single issue. The same goes for the younger two as well Yes, they need help reproducing, but so do some humans, does that make us unhealthy as well? Sick of people always pointing a finger at the English bulldog and wanting to eliminate the breed!!!!
A growing number of women don’t NEED but choose c-sections for various reasons, and American Doctors push them more than necessary due to liability claims, but for the actual women who need them, YES it is absolutely a mark against their fitness.
Reproductive fitness is rather the most important segment of health in regards to evolution.
And yes, humans are poorly suited in this regards compared with many other species. Need I walk you through why? We are so burdened that a good deal of our culture is evolved around compensating.
As for bulldogs, if you’re sick of the criticism, try fixing the breed, duh!
It could also be in part due to fatter babies being born! That seems to be an issue nowadays, although I haven’t seen stats on it. I HAVE seen some chubster infants when I visit friends who have given birth.
Only in America?
Considering how many women must have died giving birth prior to C section successes, it’s remarkable that this problem didn’t weed itself out via evolution prior? We’re not an old species by any means but that rate of death, I would have thought, would be an efficient way to remove the problem.
Or is it that every woman who died having a girl, probably just replaced herself in the line?
“Yes, they need help reproducing, but so do some humans, does that make us unhealthy as well?”
You’re kidding, right? You can’t really be suggesting that a surgical procedure to remove a child from the uterus is healthy, can you?
Is there any stronger indication of a severe problem than a FATAL defect that kills both mother and child?
Perhaps a look back in history at bulldog muzzles and women’s hips would be in order?
Cecilia, no, I don’t have an English Bulldog, neither do I need to jump off a cliff to know it ain’t a good thing to do, although I am English.
Look closely at your dogs Cecilia and look real close and hopefully you will see that neither do you own an English Bulldog, they killed this noble type many moons ago and turned them into a caricature of the dogs used in the baiting rings. I could easily prove the point by putting your dogs in a pen with a bull, as we know the bull would have nothing to fear and you would in a matter of minutes be 3 bulldogs less. I don’t wish to eliminate the breed because that was done a long time ago and what is left is a cartoon dog. Please, take off the rose coloured spectacles and really look at what has been done to the English Bulldog and lets hope you can have an epiphany. I find best done sat on the toilet I find, having epiphany, that is. Out with the old and in with the new.
As for a woman not being able to push a baby through her pelvis, yes, that is a health issue and the same goes for if a woman and man cannot conceive naturally. Rules is rules, break’em to your peril.
Having one example of a ten year old bulldog doesn’t make the whole breed healthy. You and your dog are lucky and you should be thankful for that.
One need only take a really objective look at bulldogs compared to all of dogdom, to see it’s as abnormal in shape as a dog can get.
Chris…will there be any followup or perhaps a full blown documentary to follow on the heels of this???
Jose Cruz recently posted..The Flat Coat Mafia…LOL
I hope so, but I don’t think Real Sports is likely to revisit the issue. But it would be excellent if we did get a full length documentary.
Just my whole two cents I have owned two bulldogs in my life I dont really know if they came from a show breeders or not because they were both given to me. Pudge ( I know a bulldog name not that original what can I say he was already named) he was a sweet strong dog and was pretty healthy. I had been told that he should not exercise to much because of being brachycephalic. It did not stop him he was a runner loved to fetch lol. he loved men though and we were a house full of girls one day he broke the window to get out he loved this man across the street so much we let the guy have him. The next one I was given was a female named bailey sweet girl I used to dress her up and take her to retirement homes she loved it. She has terrible breathing problems poor girl. I did not know about the surgury ( Im sure we could not have afforded it either) unfortunately she died in her sleep she was only five years old :(. What im tryng to say is both of these dogs looked the same pudge was a bit taller but to me their faces looked the same. why were they so different?
Besides what might be to most people the somewhat rhetorical question whether dog showing is a sport or not I think it’s actually something of a coup to have the issue of pedigree dog health discussed on such a programme.
The issue gets right out there amongst a group (I suspect quite a large group) of people who might not have thought about this issue much. Plus there was of course also the premature deaths of some notable bulldogs being used as mascots by sporting teams in America.
I’m trying to find out what kind of bull dog the guy had at the end that was not considered a full breed. I would be interested in getting one but can’t find one anywhere. Thanks!
I believe it was an Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/alapahabluebloodbulldogs.htm I only know that because there is a breeder that sells them at our local monthly exotic animal expo.
Im not one to like dousing hope with a large bucket of reality but Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldogs (I hate the connotation of that name but it is in fact all about colour Im assuming) are quite severely inbred with extremely limited bloodlines including rather fishy merle ones.
At least it will be able to breath slightly easier as it has at least got a muzzle but they suffer all the crippling diseases that typical line breeding brings with it and what allmost all brachycephalatic breeds suffer from.
Im not sure why they showed that breed at the end? Maybe they couldn’t find a healthy living bulldog with a nose.
This is completely off topic but I have an urgent dilemma.
I’ve looked and looked and feel sure there would be something about the topic of yearly vaccinations here but bugger me etc if I can find it.
I feel like a complete idiot. I came head to head with my vet on the issue as I felt there was sufficient evidence to go onto a three yearly vaccination programme.
Unfortunately the vet took it very badly for some reason and continued preparing the shots like I wasn’t speaking. His face blackened over, all he said in an arch way “not according to the veterinary council”. This outraged me. Anyway biting my tongue I watched him give the dogs their shots.
When he was finished he handed me the bill. He had not billed any of the vaccinations just house call and flea collars, items listed then a big fat zero. I queried him on this and he said “Oh because we’re friends” and we are in a strange kind of way which is why I didn’t want to cause too much of a scene, but Ive never been so angry. Of course its not about money! This is a vet from New Zealand F.F.S. People over there don’t quibble about a dogs health.
Im almost sure this is nothing more than a patronising insult.
As he was leaving the JRT bit the back of his ankle and hard, he scowled and looked at me as though it was my fault “just as well he’s had his annual shots” or you could also be in trouble”. The nerve.
Im outraged and my friendship is over I expect, one less jerk to small talk at the club.
Then last night on the tele just after the news there was a government public broadcast reminding us all to “please vaccinate out pets every three years” , the very day after he had been!
Now Im not being ethnocentric or anything like that but I live in a country where these sorts of things could get muddled especially as animals including dogs don’t get the best deal out here as a rule. Not to mention they are also often treated like a food stuff. Government regulations on animal welfare are notoriously slack. Are they somehow by some strange quirk of fate health forward?
What am I to believe? I would hate to damage the dogs in anyway and just want to do the right thing by them. Already they are getting monthly toxins for heart worm, monthly toxins for ticks&fleas. Im worried about overloading their systems with unnecessary vaccinations too.
I honestly thought there was sufficient evidence out there to vaccinate only every three years.
Any information would be very well received.
I support the three year schedule, although I don’t think you are harming your dog with the yearly. Negative vaccine reactions are usually profound and appear quickly.
I don’t know that there is any evidence that vaccines cause allergy issues outside of the acute reactions, but I haven’t looked deeply at the issue.
The reason I support 3 year is that there is plenty of evidence that after their juvenile vaccinations, dogs maintain the benefits from most vaccines for several years, so it’s simply unnecessary to vaccinate yearly.
We don’t do this in humans, for example, and I think it’s a marketing ploy to get you in to the vet on a yearly basis, sort of like how oil change companies suggest you come in about twice as often as you really need to. Bread and butter sort of business model.
I’m sure others will chime in. But I’m not surprised that your Vet was shocked. It’s a strong part of their culture to push vaccines, and hell, many of them might genuinely believe it’s good medical procedure.
There is evidence in humans that childhood shots do not provide lifelong immunity to some diseases. I want to say pertussis but it’s not something I looked at recently.
The three year guidelines are widely accepted. Your vet is out of date.
https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf
My vet never mentions vaccines to me. He’s well aware I do my own, except for rabies.
Jess Ruffner recently posted..State of the Dogverse
It’s Whooping Cough, yeah. Normally it didn’t matter if you got the booster or not once you were an adult, but with the rise in unvaccinated kids carrying it around lately, it’s becoming a more recommended thing to do, since it’s an incredibly awful disease and can outright kill you if you’re weak enough.
Tucker had all his basics in his old home and then some. Since I’ve had him we did one lyme shot ( which I since found out was not considered effective and maybe even a contributor to some kidney issues per Cornell U), and beyond that, we do the 3 year rabies. That’s it.
My vet never pushes the issue, and he used to be head of gastroenterology at the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan. I like him because he really thinks through what is best for the dog based on risk vs benefits, and he doesn’t gouge you. He also manages to think a LOT while also listening to the owner patiently. He creates a reasonable team of owner and vet, which I appreciate.
Rabies, on the books here in NY, is found in cats every so often, but never in dogs. But that’s due to the stray issue. Now, a housecat, that never goes out, you’d think would not be such a concern. That seems to vary from vet to vet. I found one vet that went all by-the-book on my mom for bringing in her INJURED housecat, over the shot. He delayed help over the shot then blamed my 71 year old mom for the holdup. He said “It’s the law. I could be liable if she bites someone.”
Meanwhile this cat had no teeth! None!
And was declawed in the front.
And gave zero struggle despite being in pain.
And was at least 15 years old.
And I mentioned two of my past five cats had shot related fibrosarcomas; per their vet upon diagnosis. He wouldn’t budge. He said he would remove the cat’s injured eye for $4K, except since mom was on a limited income, he could do $1K! Oh wow, a 75% mercy discount! Can you say ripoff vet?
We left this guy. We found another vet who never even bothered asking about rabies shots for cats.
I understand laws and liability. I work for the USDA. But heck even the vet from Vet Services I spoke to at the Albany office said they really are more concerned overall with “hooves and feathers over claws and paws.”
Long story short, if you don’t like your vet, keep going until you find one that suits you.
Oh grief was that cat alive after all of that, toothless, eye-less and motionless? Ya I knew a cat like that except he was very much alive. He was a stray Tom cat lovely animal tough as old boots and wily as a fox. He would hiss at you if you so much as looked at him.
And what a surprise when you did, he was all hard compact muscle, beat up scarred and scratched, tiger stripes and big moon face and glowing eye (just the one) straight out of Alice and Wonderland.
I always saw him amongst the old abandoned warehouses and dark canals where wooden ships would have long ago unloaded and loaded their precious Far Eastern cargo. This is were I lived when I was a student in Amsterdam. Coming back from the cafes at night he would be waiting under a lamp post on the same corner every night. He would puff up hiss and run across the cobbles and dissapear bwetwen buildings. Now extremely expensive buildings lofts and apartments in one of the most sought after districts. My investment in sixteenth century squaller paid off rather handsomely. He will be long gone though.
Nice to remember him and I always will. My talisman.
Ya I’ve had so many vets I think I’ve reached the stage where I more or less force them to perform exactly to my liking, the devil you know and all that. It’s exhausting trying out news ones.
I have a different vet for everything.
None here at any rate seem to know all animals most specialise in just reptiles or just avians or just dogs and cats or wild civets (absolutely), or just dogs or in one case just song birds. I sometimes wonder if I shouldn’t be making sure the certificate hanging on the wall is authentic.
You would think this was reassuring but no not really I seem to be spending half my days looking stuff up on the internet that I should be able to more than confidently leave up to the Vets.
We have large and poisonous snakes that lay their eggs in the garden a real privilege and a curse one year, three times one of the dogs was bitten playing with them, no anitvenom! I had to nurse her through horrific times. No they couldn’t ask the hospital its only for humans no they couldn’t no they can’t, its finished four years ago, no eye surgery no, no it wont keep no use……
Maybe having too much information is a bad thing? Gasp I should slap myself for saying that but the fact is the world isn’t one large equally informed or even capable place.
Many of the more than sane discussions on a blog like this are complete gibberish to a great great many in this world a great many but a great relief to me of course.
Touch wood everyone is extremely healthy these last few years, just the vaccination issues.
In the UK three yearly for Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvo and annually for Lepto and Kennel Cough, although some vets treat for parainfluenza as well, my vet ops for Kennel Cough as the data they have they feel the parainfluenza does not warrant it’s use if the dogs is covered for Kennel Cough. Parainfluenza is an annual vaccine like the Lepto and Kennel Cough.
Leptospirosis is a bacterial infection and can cause total organ failure, found in urine, dirty water and most Dairy herds vaccinate cows annual against this, as can cause miscarriage. If your dog is a farm dog and likes dirty water, vaccinating for Lepto annually might be wise.
If your vet was vaccinating your dog for Lepto and/or parainfluenza he is following world vaccine protocol as these are still advised to be done annually.
Thanks everyone. Im feeling a lot better about having brought this issue up here and with my vet. Not quite such a prat after all.
Anyway I decided to push the boat out a little, so I phoned him to try and clarify, Oooops is all I can say it didnt go well. Again!
As far as I understand it too Distemper, Parvo Hep once done will last minimum three years. So they are covered end of story right? Heck some even say its more like seven years. However my vet now informs me (which he didn’t on his house visit) that “as I live in the rurals (rain forest up in the hills) wild dogs pose a greater threat so annually is still “the” recommendation” !?
Why would that make a difference, covered is covered right?
Im not absolutely sure what shots he does anymore, I know this sounds absolutely irresponsible of me but he stopped putting little stickers in a small booklet for each dog. As he said he has it all on file and backed up so no need.
Anyway he does a three in one shot which Im assuming is Distemper Parvo and Hep, and he does the rabies and a heart worm shot. I know for sure its only three shots, all at one time.
Is it wise to do these all at the same time? Does it pose any risks as I’ve been reading? I asked about that too on the phone and he got quite angry, snapped back at me “that they are completely different shots and don’t have complications together” the rabies and three in one.
I really have him going on all of this.
He has never mentioned Leptospirosis shots. We do have a number of wild rat species, I looked it up as I see it mentioned by Jane and rat urine can spread it in water. We do have torrential rains, but there is no where around the house at least where there are standing puddles to drink from. We have mosquitoes wild pig and Dengue fever so are extra careful about the water thing.
In some ways I can see how difficult it might be for vets with the world wide information super highway, they are probably second guessed a lot. But quite frankly it’s a good thing as it keeps them on their toes and in this case Im rather sad to say up to date, especially when I read from Jane that its now standard practise for Distemper, Parvo, and Hepatitis to be done on a three yearly basis in the UK. The vet is from New Zealand a young vet I can’t imagine that he isn’t in the loop on this as the UK and NZ share a lot of vet info.
I couldn’t find that info on the net about the UK, though. Maybe they are still loath to say because of the income issue?
Im tempted to change vets only thing is not many will come here as its quite a trek through the mountainsides. Socialising dogs just so they can go visit the vet has never been practical for us.
Jess I used to do the horses myself back in Africa as it was a days drive for the Vet. She taught me how to do them when we had her stay over for a long weekend. All I did was pick up the shots when needed. I never liked doing it though, horses are large muscled packed clever beauties they can see it coming no matter how you approach the exercise.
Here they wont give you the shots, they wont even give you antibiotics without seeing the dog. Which made me see red on a number of occasions.
To cap it all I had told him on his visit I no longer wanted the yearly heart worm shot. Honestly the nightmares I’ve read on the net about this one, I don’t care if its the new all improved version I don’t want it…..I will on the monthly chewies. Its the same chemical he was using just not time release.
I think they should offer yearly seminars for owners on these things, finger food and cocktails….are vets all to be trusted?
Im not sure, Im not especially when they react so badly. It would be different if we sat down and discussed it over a beer like civilised beings but he was immediately on the defensive it left a sour note it did. Im not sure what to make of him anymore quite frankly.
Even if there were no shots I would still pay the 600$ for him to come and give the dogs a yearly once over.
If the dogs are vaccinated AND they are exposed to wild dogs or whatever, that really doesn’t pose more of a threat unless the vacs didn’t work. What it would do is reinforce the immune system with LIVE virus, which by my reasoning would be a good thing. If you have a lot of wildlife and standing water (I live in a temperate rainforest) then it’s a good idea to vaccinate for lepto and brucellosis. If you really want to put the vet through his paces, have him draw blood and titre test for all the threats and only give vacs for those with low titres. You would be surprised how long they last. I had some serious trouble shipping K-9 semen to Sweden because the USDA approved lab (Washington State University) found a positive titre for Brucellosis on my male that had been vaccinated for three strains three years earlier. The USDA swore it couldn’t be the vaccine. The vaccine company said exactly the opposite. So we had to do a timed set of blood draws and tests to confirm the titre was from the vaccine. The USDA was wrong. Titres last much longer than the so-called experts say.
Here’s the deal with vaccines and how long they last:
Vaccination does two things (seroconversion): a) it causes the dog to produce antibodies to that antigen, and b) it induces the production of ‘memory cells.’ Memory cells do exactly what it sounds like, the dog is exposed to a disease, the memory cells go “Hey! I recognize that!” and cause the production of antibodies to the disease.
You will see people talk about ‘titers’ a lot. A titer is how much circulating antibody the dog has in its blood. A titer DOES NOT measure memory cells. So the dog may have NO antibodies present, but it will produce antibodies when it is challenged or exposed to the disease. Titers are not a measure of immunity, but they are all we have to measure response to the vaccine. If a dog develops antibodies, it has seroconverted, and barring strange situations, it is probably immune. (Note that because rabies is a public health risk, humans can get it, we don’t simply assume that because a dog has seroconverted at some point in the past that it is automatically immune. A positive titer is necessary for rabies ‘immunity.’)
When you see a vaccine marketed for a specific period of time, all it means is that the vaccine was tested, in the laboratory. Dogs are vaccinated, kept away from natural exposure, and then challenged with the virus. If they don’t get it, the vaccine can legally be marketed with the years for duration of immunity. (YMMV, I am in the US.) So, here we have rabies vax licensed for one year, and for three years. There is no real difference in the two vax, except that one was tested for three years, and one for one year. This does not mean that the immunity provided by the vaccine does not last longer than three years.
Regarding wild virus: if your dog is exposed to wild virus, if it is immune, the immune system will recognize the disease, produce antibodies, and the dog won’t get sick. This actually acts as a ‘booster’ vaccine, and keeps antibodies circulating in the blood. Dogs that are out and about a lot actually need less vaccination than dogs that are kept at home away from other dogs, because the out and about dogs are being exposed to wild virus (or shed vaccinal virus) and their immune system is constantly being challenged, so they usually have circulating antibodies. A dog that never encounters Parvo, for example, will eventually cease to have circulating antibodies from being vaccinated. This doesn’t mean it won’t make them if it needs to, however. This is also a reason why looking at circulating antibodies in dogs that are pets doesn’t really tell us much, because they may well be exposed to wild virus or shed vaccinal virus at the dog park, and have antibodies from that, not antibodies from their original vaccines.
Vets are just like other human beings. Good ones and bad ones.
Jess Ruffner recently posted..State of the Dogverse
I recently got my tetanus update. tDAP or dTAP or whatever, actually. It was all that was available. I was really only in it for the tetanus booster.
Boosters are recommended for adults every ten years, based on the ability supposedly, of memory cells to work quickly enough in cases of exposure.
I checked around online for a short time and it seems even before the vaccine was created, cases of tetanus were pretty low; roughly four hundred and something in per year typically, the early 1900s? My parents haven’t even had the shots since childhood. It’s only pushed because IF you get it, it’s horrendous, torturous, and often fatal. And I’m dealing with soil and very nasty Brooklyn backyards enough with broken bottles, used condoms, rusty metal and lord knows what, to warrant keeping current on the shot.
I cannot say I was not bothered by the list that said yes, this does have thimerosal, aluminum and formaldehyde in it. I had the shot done while in Albany on business so I could avoid using sick leave hours. Everyone else by my place makes you come in during the day.
I was assured there were lower amounts of these preservatives in the vaccine then when I was little and had several of them over the course of a few years, back when people weren’t giving these topics a second thought. Will it hurt me in the long run? Don’t know. I hate lobster a lot last summer and that stuff is supposed to have a nice load of mercury, but it didn’t stop me.
Thanks for all that information it does help when you can understand.
Yes absolutely Jess some people make good vets some bad.
I have had some brilliant vets over the years and some magnificent failures across quite a few different countries and continents. I think if they studied animal medicine for the love of animals it helps enormously but, well sometimes it seems they choose a career with the financial rewards foremost in mind….
With this particular vet I had to learn the hard way, he is absolutely useless at surgery….anyway least said soonest mended on that subject and tragedy but I now go elsewhere if surgery is indicated. But truly spectacular bad form for a vet not to know their limits. Even I can sew better just having learnt how to bait a hook for fishing.
He now only does the vacinations and check ups….but even this has me feeling a bit anxious.
Bit of a diversion there.
But yes Im going to ask for titre tests. He says boldly.
I will first find out if they are even available here because if they have to send the blood abroad or anything like that its probably going to be prohibitively costly for all the dogs every year. Do you have to do it every year?
I will speak to a few other Vets get the drift on titre and vacinations in general might be easier.
We do have a lot of wildlife Craig from short tailed macacs, pangoline, python King coba, well I wont mention them all but there are buck, cats, primates, rodents, pig, reptiles, mongoose, wild cattle and dogs, salamanders frogs toads, fish, tortoises, terrapines, birds of course and etc. Quite a broad selection up in our hills and we regularily see them and the dogs regularily eat, catch and chase some of them too, the JRT are always catching mice and rats and frogs. Recently I discovered a giant earth worm its about a meter long and and fat as a thumb, the dogs treated it like a back rub they couldnt stop rolling on it.
Im worried about “Lepto” and “Brucellosis”, if there wasn’t enough to be getting on with. Are there any more mosquito born diseases dogs can get while Im at it besides heart worm?
This is the thing if your lines of communication with your vet are bad it’s a disaster. BTW does anyone elses vet arrive in a suit and tie? I find this so off putting but not being shallow I’ve tried never letting it worry me. I understand the white coat thing is not in fact condusive for relaxing all animals us humans included but a suit and tie? In the tropics? Excentric to say the least. Don’t get me wrong its not a linen suit, just ordinary office wear, linen I could understand it even has that something extra, bordering on stylish a dash of flair. He said it was because “locals” thought more highly of him dressed like that! I said I didn’t think they were so shallow, he never replied.
What the vets wears like it matters, maybe in this case.
Anyway….scratches back of head.
I don’t know if I would quite call it a turning point, but I’m glad to hear dog show people chanting “happy healthy dogs” instead of saying that nothing was wrong and that shows are improving the breed, not really ruining the health of the breed.
And the video was very good, hit the high points without beating around the bush.
Actually, when I think about it more, it is a turning point. Not a 360, but a deviation from the usual BS. Obvious still mostly BS, but with a new, less offensive, whiff about it.
The usual blah blah is still there, but now there is that pleasant little trill of “happy healthy dogs”. Unfortunately, wishing alone doesn’t make it so, but at least they are chanting about the goal they want – and it is the same goal that we want.
Isn’t that a major step in the right direction? I think so.
And thanks to all involved in the program, and all the foundation work before it!