Merry Christmas! Sorry, we can't give you your sight or your hearing back.
Not being one to shy away from conflict, debate, and the chance to change my mind or learn something new, I contacted the breeders involved in mating merle dogs to merle dogs and asked them about their experience and justifications in creating and using a double merle. This is the letter I sent them:
Greetings Matt and Anita,
My name is Christopher and I’m a hobby Border Collie breeder from Denver. I have a few questions regarding your dog Wyndlair Avalanche, specifically his role as a homozygous merle and your experience with that.
If you have a moment, I hope you can help give me a breeder’s perspective on your experience. Here are my questions:
* Was the Southland’s Beyond the Glory x Twin City Wyndlair Anthem breeding planned to create a double merle? Did you know this was a possible outcome before the breeding? How many double merle puppies did you get from that breeding?
* Are both parents obvious merles or was either a cryptic?
* Both of Avalanche’s parents and many of his progeny are show champions. It doesn’t appear that Avalanche is one himself. Was he shown? What elements prevented his Championship if any.
* Does Avalanche suffer any major or minor issues suspected to be the result of his MM status? Any issues believed unrelated to his MM status?
* Do or did any of the other puppies from his litter, especially any other MMs, have any issues that are believed to be related to the Merle gene?
* How many puppies from his litter were viable and survived to a year old? Were any stillborn or near birth failures? Are all of the littermates still alive? How would you characterize the litter size compared to average Rough Collies or any other litters the dam whelped?
* Some breeds seem to tolerate double merles better, for example there have been historical double merle sires in Shetland Sheepdogs. How would you assess the Rough Collies in this respect? Are there other notable MM sires or dams historically? Are there others that are currently active? To the best of your knowledge, have any of them suffered MM related illness or dysfunction?
* What plan or goal did or do you have for Avalanche as part of a breeding program that influenced you to create an MM dog versus a single Merle dog? How did you weigh the benefits vs. risks? What was your logic before breeding Avalanche and has your assessment changed now? Would you pursue an MM dog again?
* What advice would you offer to another breeder interested in the Merle gene? What lessons have you learned that you’d want to pass along?
* What sort of reception, critique, etc. have you gotten regarding Avalanche being a double merle? Have you found this to be controversial or accepted? Has there been a difference in reception from other breeds with merle versus those breeds which reject merle? Have you had any issues registering your dogs with the kennel club? How about the breed club?
Many thanks for your time and expertise,
Christopher Landauer
Astraean Border Collies
Rainbows are beautiful, but this dog will never see one.
This is the response I received, unedited and in full, from the breeders of Wyndlair Avalanche, the blind and deaf Rough Collie I profiled before. Emphasis mine.
Hello Christopher,
Thank you for your inquiry about Aiden and your list of questions about the merle gene in Collies. You have obviously put a lot of thought into the subject of MM’s. Hopefully, I can provide some perspective from our experiences in the Collie breed and answer some of your questions. It sounds as though the merle gene may behave a little differently in your breed than it does in Collies.
Our decision to do a merle-to-merle breeding was the result of a couple years of frustration in not being able to find a quality non-merle stud dog that had the temperament, health, soundness, pedigree and breed type that we work to maintain in our breeding program. It was not a decision made lightly, but after much thought and consideration. Doing a merle-to-merle breeding should only be done by experienced and knowledgeable breeders, and only when a suitable non-merle with the desired quality is not available. Aiden’s sire and dam, both wonderful examples of correct Collie type, temperament and health as called for in the Collie standard, were the perfect complements to each other. Our hope in doing the breeding was not to produce a MM, but that is ultimately what we got. Aiden was a singleton puppy with no other littermates conceived. He has always been extremely healthy, happy and robust. He always has a smile on his face and his tail never stops wagging. Being a MM, you wouldn’t show him, as phenotypically he doesn’t appear as a recognized breed color. Genotypically, he is a blue merle with an additional merle gene.
We have never experienced or heard of any health issues in the Collie breed tied to the merle gene. Litter sizes, health and vigor are just as strong as with non-merles. Both Collies and Shelties have had notable MM producers of dogs without any illness or dysfunction. Each of the offspring of a MM inherit a single merle gene and are normal merles, phenotypically and genotypically.
I can’t say I fully understand your question about a “specific interest in (or quest for?) the merle gene.” Color is immaterial in the Collie breed. The breeder’s goal is solely to improve quality. Color is no object.
Aiden has been very well-received by the Collie fancy. He has more than fulfilled that promise we foresaw in the breeding. Those that know him personally know the wonderful dog that he is, and those that are seeing his progeny are equally impressed with their quality. Aiden has proven prepotent for his wonderful temperament, vitality and breed type.
I hope that helps answer some of your questions. Best wishes to you in your breeding program.
Regards,
Matt & Anita Stelter
Wyndlair Collies
WyndlairCollies.com
Notice that they fail to mention that he is blind and deaf. They specifically claim otherwise! Notice that they claim that they have NEVER had an issue with litter size breeding merle to merle, but that Avalanche was a singleton! This is why we can’t rely on breeder anecdotes as data, they’re perfectly willing to lie or utterly fail to recognize that singleton litter is well below the average for the breed and that being blind and deaf are not healthy conditions, they are in fact congenital diseases.
Beautiful expression, just like Helen Keller. Blind, deaf, and most certainly dumb.
I also e-mailed a breeder who used Avalanche as a stud dog, the one who boasted an “all blue merle litter is due mid-March!” before taking that website down in response to my article. Emphasis mine.
Hi Christopher,
Your e-mail came at a good time. I’m off this week – my son came for a quick visit and I actually have time to sit down at the computer 🙂
I’ll warn you ahead of time… I’m not the best at the right “words”…
I’m a breeder first… I love to keep track of what a sire is producing. At every show that we attend…I am interested in seeing the puppies -male or female, smooth or rough coat. I look to see what characteristics that the sire is stamping on his puppies. I’m more interested in the whelping box than the ring…although we’re doing fabulous in the ring!
On Avalanche…we saw very consistent puppies with different families that produced the look (or face) of what I want to continue with in my lines. I’m going to call it “the look of eagles”…something that is so special…it crosses many pedigrees and dogs. When you see a “good one”… it doesn’t matter what the line is… they have the same “look”. Avalanche gives his puppies a beautiful eye (expression), clean muzzle, no depth. There is an elegance that excites me everytime I see something produced by him.
I had brought a gorgeous tri colored collie bitch (Stella) into my lines who was an outcross. You can get her pedigree on our website (Mainstay Back of the Moon). With her first litter, when bred to my male “Tony”, Ch. Riverrun Lionheart, she produced an outstanding litter of puppies. I could have kept just about anything and have been happy. The girl I kept from that litter finished her championship from the 6-9 class with three specialty majors and a Best in Specialty Show Win over quite a lot of specials. She’s in season now and will be bred to Tony’s son “Tanner, Ch. Galatean A Good River Runs Through.
So, on Stella’s second litter… we decided to breed her to Avalanche which would give me an entire litter of blue merle puppies. We have a kennel of sable & white collies – We are known for our beautiful sables…but I’ve wanted to bring the blue merle color to Riverrun. The breeding would also tie in with my bitch’s pedigree – a line breeding on her sire’s side. I would then plan to take a puppy from Stella’s litter and breed it back into my own lines.
I knew ahead of time that the breeding to Avalanche was taking a chance… Avalanche is basically blind and deaf. He will never be in the show ring. I don’t think I ever would do a breeding at Riverrun that would produce MM puppies. I want my puppies to all be healthy and I don’t want to ever take a risk of having a blind and deaf collie. Avalanche is also not very balanced – He is straight in front and doesn’t have a strong rear. He doesn’t move very well and that is the drawback on many of his puppies. At our National Specialty…there were many beautiful puppies sired by Avalanche, but most of them had very bad movement. I was getting worried after I saw them.
But, there were so many things to like about Avalanche…The word “majestic comes to mind when I think of Avalanche. He has an amazing arch of neck – a profuse coat. You couldn’t really look at his “expression” because it was obvious he was blind. But, everything else was fine with his headpiece…stop, muzzle, cleanness, no depth… As a breeder, I went back and forth, weighing his faults and virtues. Would my bitch be strong enough in her own virtues to overcome his faults? I have to admit I was worried all the way through the pregnancy and then waiting and watching the puppies as they grew up. Fingers and toes were crossed…
I bred to him, knowing about the horrible movement of his puppies. Stella (the tri bitch) has an outstanding body and movement and has produced it with her nine puppies in her first litter. We are used to good movement but we were doing a breeding into a new pedigree. I had already decided that if the litter couldn’t move…they wouldn’t stay – no matter how nice their headpieces were. They have to please me when they’re moving in the yard. We were very lucky…Mother Nature gave my litter of four great bodies and movement.
Another worry came up after we had done the breeding… I now was hearing that Avalanche threw terrible eye checks. Of my four pups – 2 were fine, but 2 had small colobomas. I’m not used to having colobomas but they were small and the puppies were easy to place in pet homes. My pick bitch puppy, Quinn, was fine. Quinn is everything I was hoping for – she has the “face”, or “elegance” that will make her a specialty bitch… she also is “balanced” in body and movement. I’m beyond thrilled with her. She is only 13 weeks of age but I think she’s going to be a WOW!
I have heard through the collie “grapevine” that Avalanche is now with his breeder in Wisconsin. He was with Mike (Sheila) Cheatham of Southland Collies in Tennessee since he was a puppy. He was familiar with his home and was loved by Mike. Mike always took him with her to the Barn and he always was by her side. He had huge fenced pastures in which to play with other collies. Watching him…the last thing you would guess is that he was blind. It must be very hard for him to be in a new place. Collies are so very family oriented… my own collies are not “kennel” dogs but are part of our family and get house time regularly.
Avalanche is very controversial. There are breeders who are horrified that a breeding was done that produced MM puppies. There are breeders who would never send a bitch to him. His color or his role as a homozygous merle didn’t matter to me… the puppies that he produced were all that I cared about. I don’t know of any other MM sires that are actively producing such beautiful puppies. I don’t believe that there have been other notable MM sires.
I frankly don’t give a hoot what other breeders think about Avalanche. I put my breeding program first and foremost. Maybe that’s why we’re so successful. I want the most awesome puppies and collies that I can breed. I’m willing to go anywhere in the country to find the right sire for my bitches. We keep striving with each breeding to get better than the one before. It’s funny…the more successful you are…the more people are unhappy that they don’t have the same success. We’ve got a wonderful group of friends, we call it “family”, who cheer you on – win or lose…and are always there for each other. I don’t lose sleep on those people that are negative and have nothing nice to say and will always take a jab trying to hurt you. It pays to have a sense of humor in this dog game.
AKC hasn’t had any problems registering Avalanche kids and our breed club is the same.
So…in closing… My advice is to go ahead and do what your gut tells you to do. If it doesn’t work out…you’ll have pretty pets!
If you get a chance, keep in touch and let me know what you’re doing with your breeding program. I am usually slow to answer. Between work (I design and maintain flower gardens) and dogs… I never usually am at the computer.
All the very best,
Mary Jackson
Riverrun Collies
Ridgefield, CT 06877
A few hours later, I got a follow-up email.
You know Chris…I guess I’m just too trusting of people… just looked you up on google and you sound like a very unhappy person.
I answered your e-mail with the best of intentions…I thought you truly wanted to know why I bred where I did and I answered you as such…wish I had done a bit of research ahead of time.
May you have the best of luck with your ideas and thoughts.
Mary Jackson
I find the Stelter’s deceit to be unacceptable and unethical, and Mary Jackson’s candor to be refreshing although troublesome in content. That’s really the nicest sendoff letter I’ve ever received after questioning someone as forcefully as I did Mrs. Jackson and her use of Avalanche as a stud dog.
But what’s the greater lesson here? In the Wyndlair breeders, I see people who have drunk the koolaid and are beyond salvation. They believe in taking every element of the breed standard and turning it up to ludicrous levels. They are so concerned with the trivial they fail to see the obvious: who cares if Avalanche can’t hear, his ears LOOK great! Who cares that he can’t see, his eye sockets are perfectly oblique!
I see Mary Jackson as a well intentioned breeder who was blinded by the fame and popularity of the hottest stud dog in town and compromised her own values to gain a little of that starlight. She wouldn’t create a monster like Avalanche, but she would use him, which ultimately does create a demand and market justification for the people who did create him.
This is where a code of ethics comes into play. To prevent this slow fall from grace, this inching toward destruction; to prevent good breeders from going bad and bad breeders from benefiting from their malfeasance.
It’s unfortunate that the CCA doesn’t warn against this practice and shun those who do it. Other breeds and other registries have outlawed this sort of breeding and it’s time that the Collie Club of America does so as well. It’s better for the dogs, it’s better for the sport, and it’s better for the image conformation sport presents to the world.
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
No wonder you have all this splintering in the rough and smooth collies. Their club is a very good example of some inmates running an asylum.
Retrieverman recently posted..Brown-skinned recessive yellow to red
Yes, that is why many of the conscious breeders no longer are members of the Social Breed Club. Membership is down from 3,000 …way down. Kathy
Oh boy Retrieverman where were you all this time? Chris this is a perfect example of the social and politically complexities that Elaine failed to grasp.
Scapegoats I believe Kate does get the concept. Like my daughter quick study.
Just to set the record straight, Avalanche CAN hear. He is not completely blind. Him being a singleton has nothing with the Merle gene.
Sure. Technically I can still hear music, environmental sound, dog barking, people talking; but I am functionally deaf with a 70-120dB hearing loss. Being able to hear noises and reacting to them is not the same thing as understanding what they are.
Dave recently posted..Moose Training
“Completely blind” is a poor way of putting it. Most blind people do have some vision, but they are still considered sightless. There’s only a handful with no sight at all.
Blind is blind, no matter how you cut it.
Dave recently posted..Devolution
How do you know this dog is blind and deaf? Aren’t you assuming a lot? And why is this any of your business??? Do you have the necssary permissions to be posting private emails here?
The dog is blind and deaf according to the first hand account of the breeder who used Avalanche as a stud. One of the other breeders who bred the dog also admits that he is disabled.
But Chris, he won’t pass those ‘faults’ to his pups as long as he’s bred to a non-Merle. That makes it all okay! His head is amazing; who cares about the rest of him?
Apparently he does, his offspring are noted for their eye disorders according to the breeder who used him. This actually is not inconsistent with the research findings: “The rate of deafness was significantly higher among the
offspring of unilaterally or bilaterally deaf” dogs.
Hey Chris,
As far as I know, Avalanche’s blindness would be unrelated to the degree of CEA and/or colobomas he would pass on to his offspring. The fact that he’s passing on colobomas indicates that he probably would have had a poor eye check had he been a single merle or non-merle.
If Avalanche’s sire and dam were CEA noncarriers, despite his blindness, his offspring would also be CEA normal eyed or noncarriers. In fact I co-owned a puppy briefly whose dam was a double merle CEA noncarrier, who had normal hearing and vision, and was an accomplished performance dog. Pepper was bred to a non-merle CEA noncarrier, so the whole litter was CEA noncarriers.
Some breeders warned me that a puppy from a double merle would have health problems but I considered that to be nothing more than superstition. And, my puppy was very healthy. (I have heard that double merles who would otherwise have been normal eyed are less likely to have vision problems, but I don’t know if that’s true or not.)
The problem obviously is that if you are not breeding normal-eyed collies, which the vast majority of breeders are not, then there is really no way to do an accurate eye check on a blind double merle dog. I assume. 🙂
I would be more worried about why Avalanche came from a singleton litter. What does this say about the health and vitality of the lines behind him?
That’s the rub isn’t it? If it’s unethical to breed dogs with documented eye problems, is it not also unethical to breed dogs that are unable to be examined for them due to severe distortion of the eye? I doubt both of Avalanche’s parents are clear for CEA. One of his breeders even thinks that being clear of CEA is a liability!
We also know that a single merle gene does cause genetic disease. Given how severe Avalanche’s disabilities are, do you think it’s a safe bet that he has two less harmful copies of the Merle gene? I doubt it.
As for the lines behind him, I read that his sire was later bred to a bitch in a multiple sire litter. None of the puppies were his. So we have 1 (really damaged) puppy out of 2 attempts. And it could be worse. I haven’t run a COI on these dogs, but I doubt it will be low.
Nothing’s uglier than a collie with large eyes! For proof, just look at the original Lassie! http://www.antiquetrader.com/upload/contents/290/field_1742/AT%201-21%20003.JPG
Pai excuse me, but it is this type of judgment calls that got the collie where it is today. Kathy
Ugh. People have a tendency to believe whatever allows them to do what they wanted to do anyway.
Man is a creature of reason. He will always come up with a reason to suit his purpose.
Retrieverman recently posted..Brown-skinned recessive yellow to red
What is the world coming to when it’s a good idea to breed any defect on purpose, even a “mild” one?
This is shameful and good for you Christopher!
Kate believe his blindness would be called Micropthalmia blindness. Kathy
While I strongly disagree with any merle to merle breeding, I am somewhat dismayed by the commentary around blind/deaf dogs. I have rescued and owned blind/deaf Aussies for many years. While I would never wish for another puppy to be born blind and deaf, many blind/deaf dogs lead quite wonderful, long lives. I have never known the mm genetics to be linked to other health problems, although I just may not have encountered them. I have three collies now and 2 of them have some degree of CEA, the third is normal eyed, although he is a carrier. He is wonderful in every other way.
Blindness & deafness are a big enough health problem are they not?
I know dogs adapt well but you have to agree they’d be better off sighted & able to hear.
The risk is too high & no merle to merle breedings should occur. I’m not sure I even think a merle should be breed or breed for at all when a breed has colour choises available to them with no health issues linked to the colour. If 1 crop up so be it but to actually breed for a merle or use merles in a breeding programe I’m yet to decide if it’s really the right thing to do.
But I 110% know what I feel about merle to merle breedings & that is they should never be registered EVER.
CEA affected and blind/deaf from homozygous merle are two totally different issues. Loving a blind/deaf dog and loving the breed enough to refrain from risky breedings are also two very different things.
I’ve been involved with rescue for many years, and several of my fosters have been blind (two were deaf/blind). They were both wonderful dogs, but a simple breeding choice could have prevented them from being born deaf and blind in the first place.
AFAIK, there is no study that proves double merles are prone to other health issues – it’s all conjecture. It’s been said that they’re sterile, prone to allergies, seizures, and even that they’re retarded (yes, this was in an actual dog book by Brian Kilcommons!).
Blindness in a MM is linked to the dilution of pigmentation. Merle is a lack or lessening of pigmentation. Singleton litters in collies are not that uncommon and has nothing to do with the health and vitality of a dam or the sire. It has to do with how/when the dam ovulates and how many eggs she “shoots” off. The strength and mobility of the sperm also plays a role.
With all due respect, a natural breeding resulting in a singleton pup IS MOST DEFINITELY a sign of lack of vitality in the parents. Healthy collies should typically have litters of at least six or seven puppies. If you are consistently getting fewer than that, you might want to check the COIs of your dogs. In Avalanche’s case, it is a huge red flag, and honestly I wonder if more double merle pups weren’t born and euthanized at birth.
Clearly you do not know Matt and Anita, as they are some of the most honest breeders I have met, and would not deliberately deceive anyone about thier breeding practices or their dogs. And while I appreciate your comment and dam that I have experience with regarding singleton pups had and incredibly low COI. She is the result of an outcross and have no similar parentage in 6 generations. In her 7th generation you begin to see common parentage. As for natural vs. AI, both were done with her and we always got only one puppy. The different sires were more linebreed, but loosley. My girl is very heathly thank you.
Infertility is linked to genetics, as well. For a dog the size of a Collie, to have singleton litters be common is not normal.
There is no way it’s normal for a medium sized working breed to have such small litters. I’m pretty sure if you check out the litter sizes 20 years & more back you’d see the average size litter was much larger than todays small litters.
As you someone being honets breeders, they may be honest but thier genetic knowledge apears poor & thier ethics are not at the standard I’d like to see or they would have waited for the right non merle stud to be found.
Chris after looking over your post again I want to point out that I do not believe Helen Keller was actually born blind, and deaf and dumb due to a lack of sensory function. Her disabilities were due to high fever of illness which do not recall?
My sister was deaf but not born this way. It was due to car hitting her and putting her down on the ground. One of her shoes were found two blocks one way and the other two blocks the other. Kathy
Everything out of Avalanche is a merle and might be likely cryptic from my personal over 10 year of studies. When I bred two merles (*not a double dilute) together CEA1 slight and Normal (go) I got 8 puppies. 2 Double diutes with iris colobomas which were fine until diliated and caused eyes to die since this condition was unknown to collies at the time–prior at first glance no other condition seen Cea 1- 2 and were not notably deaf and the others were Normal graded except the male with a small coloboma and all neutered / spayed. All had dark eyes too. Tri female was cryptic do to the only thing was a unmyelinated optic nerve and was born sterile. following the years that went by as the aged, except for DDs, all lived over 8 years old or more. However, late expression lupus from lyme disease shot and genetics and other from lyme shot died a week later diagnosed with lupus both raised at same home with 2 biologists from the FDA studying merle to merle breedings. Also, all exhibited variations of degenertative myeopathy.spondylosis. Dolly sterile one had cancer of the spinal cord also. I post this personal study to educate novice breeders in the love of the collie breed.
Guy if you read the blog sites before posting you would not be replying in this fashion.
Eye defects are more common in merle even when it’s Mm. It is sad that the focus on narrow head and small eyes tends to have problems in and of itself — I have an old (1970s) canine opthamology book that points out that the narrow head of a collie tends to result in a smaller eye socket and was implicated in eye problems even then. But “. He would only breed normal eyes and it got to the point where he couldn’t look his own dogs in the face. ” — they don’t want the dogs looking like some BC in the face. “Better”, somehow, to breed dogs with eye defects as long as they have the “right” head.
AKC could preclude MM breedings by simply refusing registration. OTOH, even when a breed club TRIES to do the right thing, AKC has opted for the registration dollars instead — hence their refusual to allow the Doberman Club to ban albino Dobermans. The best AKC would offer was to annotate the dogs in a pedigree. On the other hand, there is nothing stopping people from forming their own “healthy collie club” (or is that the farm / old time collie people?) and creating their own registry. Expecting AKC to do everything for one is unrealistic. They are a business. That business is NOT “the healthiest and most functional dogs”. It’s not even “the best performing dogs”. I don’t see the UKC doing anything different than AKC. Do they preclude MM registrations?
Peggy Richter
Most of my investigation on this as of late is on the European clubs which consider this sort of breeding as “torture breeding.” Qualzucht. I’d like to think that we wouldn’t need government to step in here like it has in some European countries. I’d hope that people would learn the genetics and decide against the practice. High hopes, I know.
Christopher recently posted..Something is Rotten in Harlequin Danes
I bet the blindness is probably caused by vaccines and kibble.
Not interbreeding!
Pekingeseman recently posted..Vaccines are killing are dogs! Not interbreeding!
You are a genius!
I do not agree that inbreeding is not killing our dogs. However, do agree too many vaccines and disease by usage in manufactoring of diseased,the dead and dying
put in dog food adds to the problems. A dog is a meat eater, and all the cheap fillers and grains well this is a subject that requires another forum. Kathy
Kathy
I was tempted to bring those things up myself but I also recognized that this forum does not seem to be the place for that.
http://www.lemmikkipalstat.net/foorumit/Forum20/HTML/363328-2.html
Thank you for helping to keep this thread on track. Kathy
Wow indeed want to get more into this one.
There is also a documented study done 2005 proving that puppies from a single merle breeding have a higher risk of health issues. If your breed has a hisotry of merle then by all means this is a risk you must take. BUT if your breed does not have a history of this pattenr, like my breed Rat Terriers, then you should not be introducing this attractive/attracting color pattern. Contraray to popular belief, Rat Terriers do not have Chihuahua in thier history either. The Chihuahua was not crossbred in until the 1980’s and even thouigh UKC and AKC did not accept the breed until 1999 and still on going, the breed has been around since the 1800’s and probably before being brought over fron England by mining immigrants . Every breed used to make this breed are hunting dogs of which none had the merle pattern. In the 1980’s people crossbred this pattern and the Chihuahua in to make a small easy to sale dog and banked on the Rat Terriers good reputation. NONE of the major reputable registries accept merle as natural pattern for Rat Terriers even UKCI says it is a DQ (disqualification) not meeting breed type. Breeders should always breed for the betterment of the breed. I can’t find one good reason why this pattern should be introduced into Rat Terriers, but I can think of a lot of bad ones not to introduce the merle pattern. Please, dont get me wrong. Like I said above,, if it is your breeds history.. then yes.. you have to breed it and take the risk.. Rat Terriers should not.
The documented study ; http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/ClarkPNASMerle.pdf
Another group has done thier own study here: http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=47
http://members.boardhost.com/LoveRatTerriers/msg/1314539401.html
I personally think that the original Lassie — Pal — was a beautiful dog with lovely eyes. So there! 🙂
Having first hand knowledge of both Jennie Duhon and the Stelter’ s I am not surprised at all by this….saddened, but not surprised. You are spot on when you say they will do ANYTHING for a ribbon or a win and they will do WHATEVER it takes to get it.
One of these days, collie people will take heed of the truth. That the defining hallmark of the collie breed is its sagacity. Historically, regardless of structure, earset, or expression, the collie has always been recognized by its sagacity. We do not need extreme show points to create a collie. We need a good, honest dog with proper , balanced breed type, a nimble body and a keen mind. Extreme show points don’t make a proper collie. Sagacity and proper balance in all features of breed type make a proper collie.
It is unfortunate that novice breeders aren’t being taught the value of “Solving The Mystery of Breed Type”. Once they learn this, they will understand that “Reaching For The Stars” is more than, and different from, copy-catting folk who win in the ring. When they add to this knowledge, an understanding of the nuances of the collie breed ,welling from a study of the history and origins of the breed, then they will have a field of knowledge capable of making wise decisions for their kennel.
Once these things were passed on at ringside and in mentorships y wise older breeders. Now, folk are ina hurry. They fluff and polish, but don’t take time to study. They copy-cat without knowledge of the history of the dogs they are breeding.
Breeding is art as well s science. It is wisely, and best, done when coupled with an understanding of the nuances of the breed. That takes time and study. Unfortunately, the world is in a hurry. Breedign quality collies within the established Standard is a fine challenge. There are hard-taugt essons behind the wording in the Collie Srtandard. Lessons learned and passed on in the wording by veteran breeders who ran kennels of 100 or more dogs in the early days. Who saw a deep of genetic diversity we will never see in kennels running 20 or so collies. We should take heed of their wisdom set forth in our Standard’s wording. We should not change the Standard to fit our rtistsic wants. Rather we should apply our artistic eye within its limits. There is plenty of challenge there for a lifetime.
Best Regards,
Karen Tewart
http://www.freewebs.com/bellwethercollies/
“Old fashions please me best; I am not so nice, To change true rules for odd inventions.
“Taming Of The Shrew.
I have been studying various lines and have visited with and contacted Collie breeders with hopes of purchasing a puppy that is healthy and would be considered by the breeder to have excellent movement, head qualities and temperment. I have asked pertinent questions. one breeder told me that eye problems “are not high on the priority list”; but most breeders simply do not address the eye issues OR any other health issues. why can’t they be honest? they want the general public to trust them but they do not display trustworthy behavior. how does one ever “break into the inner sanctum” of breeders and find one that is honest AND willing to trust a new comer with a quality pup?
I don’t know that I have a good answer for you Fred. It seems to me that established breeders are not interested in entertaining much of anything from newcomers unless it’s a situation that will increase the established breeder’s esteem. Something along the lines of “buy my puppy and put titles on it and I get to use it for breeding if I want to and if it’s a failure, well, that’s your fault, but if you kiss my ass then you can be another vote for my side in any conflicts and you can join my entourage as a lackey.”
I see plenty of ego breeders who want to “protect their lines” … this is vanity and indulgence and has nothing beneficial about it for the dogs or the breed. It’s there to create a false illusion of scarcity in good breeding stock. They protect their lines only until they happen on some great stud dog and then whore him out like there’s no tomorrow as long as they can “leave their mark” on the breed by doing so.
It’s all very Victorian Fred, and as a newb, you’re neither Royalty nor the Aristocracy.
Fred, part of the issue is that CEA doesn’t disfigure dogs or make it more difficult to breed them. They live a normal lifespan, and unless severely affected they act no different than a normal-eyed dog. (I have a mildly affected dog who competes in agility and is in training for flyball).
Because the problem is not lethal, there is not a sufficient drive to get it out of the breed, or even attempt to breed away from it. PRA, which causes blindness, has been bred away from so it’s not as common in the breed.
It does take a lot of time to find good dogs. There are many many breeders out there – you just have to sometimes look a little harder and go further afield to find what you want.
Jana beauty is in the eye of the beholders likely the core of the complex social problem that 67 percent of American Collies have CEA a low calculation. CEA from mild to severe expression apparently according to Dr. Ackland updates in severe expression has revealed a POLYGENETIC nature.
Ask yourself why do these same voices who say CEA is no big deal run to a normal eyed collie when thier eye issues get out of hand? Kathy
There is alot of voodoo thinking on the part of collie breeders. If a dog has normal eyes, it obviously has big “ugly” eyes. Not all of them go to a NE dog when they do have problems – there also a pervasive belief that NE will produce worse eye checks than breeding two affecteds.
The coloboma pups and the ones that do have visual impairments? Why, those are the pet quality ones, of course! Add to that the number of people who think puppy mange is no big deal. It kind of makes you want to knock your head against a wall.
I do not know where this is coming from that all normal eyed collies have big ugly eyes? It is only that they have to finish them as Champions before they use to reveal the status of the eye check.
Guess what there are several now being finished right and left. Some courageous judges actually have disqualified a collie if they feel the collie sight is to limited.
Just has not happen often enough in my opinion. Years ago I have seen blind collies actually herd. I have been at outdoor shows where a flock of sea gulls where in the middle of the ring in a large puddle of water. The only collie in the ring that was making a goose out of my daughter was ours. There were fifteen collies in the ring. Time to face these possible consequences. You do not have to have large ugly eyes as it is being described to have normal eyes. Head study will certainly solve both problems. Kathy Bittorf
It is simply untrue. Likewise, if they do not bred to a normal eye collie the colobomas and the micropthalmia have and will get so bad they will have puppies born with no eyes. This has happen to even normal pigmented puppies. Kathy Bittorf
There are normal-eyed dogs who obtain their championships, many of them. But the big names that win the most shows breed without regard to NE.
On the other hand, when someone makes NE the *only* priority, of course you’ll get some big eyes in there. And some bad coats, and some sickle hocks, and roman noses. Making only one aspect of a dog your raison d’etre, to the exclusion of everything else, is never a good idea.
Jana we can say the same thing of many champions straight in shoulder, incorrect croup, flat footed and beatty microtholpmic eyes. It is possible to bred for the standard which calls for a medium almond eye and have OFA excellent herders. Kathy Bittorf
Jana: There are a few collie breeder that have been breeding for the entire collie and get normal eyes also. I agree just as there are show breeders who have not developed the skills of head study show and finish microthalpmic beady eyes ..straight in shoulder flat footed collies with tons of hair to cover short in back skull or this list would not be discussing the breed in the first place. Kathy Bittorf
Yup, the trick is to find the like-minded people and stick with them. The show breeders who are successful in Group, not just Breed – the all-rounder judges seem more likely to value overall movement and soundness.
BTW, did you used to live in Maryland?
It is hard, believe me. I had the same struggles, but I was lucky that my mentor entrusted me with a smooth puppy that she planned on keeping. He was my first smooth Ch. and the start of breeding line. The good breeders who will take a chance are out there, keep looking.
This mentor system in dogs is perhaps the most dangerous thing ever. It’s really a great case of the blind leading the blind. This is why the dog fancy can’t accept scientific facts. My mentor said this, so I don’t care what the facts are.
Retrieverman recently posted..Tiny chameleons discovered in Madagascar
Continued, it’s a lot like people I know who learn all kinds of facts from their high school drop out fundamentalist preacher. My favorite one was this guy, who was college educated, believed that Saddam Hussein gave his WMD to Iran, so Bush wasn’t lying about Iraq. He got that factoid from a Pentecostal Preacher with an eighth grade education.
I see the exact same thing in dogs.
Retrieverman recently posted..Tiny chameleons discovered in Madagascar
Fred there are Collie breeders out there who have been doing OFA for years and eye checking for decades entire litters to rid thier breeding lines for CEA, PRA and colobomas. Markers provide now further health clearance. Sadly, the normal eye was considered not to be show quality winning combination. Check out OFA registry and Performance, Agility and Herding Title breeders the honesty and Health gets alot better. Kathy
Hi, I would point out that you can breed to solid black and tan who carry the merle on both sides and have happy puppies that can hear and see and have the merles that you wont. My vet would kick my butt if I bred two merles together. There has been some people do that and had puppies that were blind and cant hear. She was not happy. We all owe it to our dogs to do what is best for them and their pups.
I would hope that the prospect of your vet kicking your butt isn’t the only thing keeping you from breeding two merles together. 🙂
What is a black and tan dog that carries merle on both sides? A black and tan dog out of a double merle breeding?
Merle is dominant. If a dog is not merle, it doesn’t matter what his parents were. He does not possess the gene and cannot pass it on to puppies.
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Yeah, that too. LOL
You couldn’t even get a black and tan dog if one parent was homozygous merle – all the pups would, by default, be merle.. It could be ‘cryptic merle’, but it would be merle.
Merle is semi-dominant. It does not have to be heterozygous to express itself.
Unless you are suggesting one of the parents need to be a white cripple.
Ah, nevermind.
The reason why breeding AtAt to Mm in the UK clubs is the only acceptable practice is because sabling tend to mask the merling; resulting in cryptic.
That’s interesting! Sable merles hold less favor in the US for the same reason – it’s harder to tell whether the dog is merle or not. My own dog is a sable merle – very spotty at birth, but now it’s very hard to see.
When most people say cryptic merle, they mean a dog like this one – blue with limited merle markings:
http://www.colliesonline.com/ad_archive_2008/jupiter_080208.jpg
Dave I understood the Standard change changed to eliminate merle to merle registration. I also read this change was due to the cryptic nature o sable and merle. The only breeding I would even consider to a sable merle is a tri. Sable merles have been some of my best collies. However, even for many breeders not the easiest to spot. I have been sold three tri factor sable merles from top breeders as tri factored sables. Only to see the adult coat and recognized the merling. Many breeders count on the eye check of blue flecking to uncover sable merles or a blue eye. If you bred for dark fundus this theory hits the trash real quick. The two blue eyes that sable merles can some times have or even one blue eye is a 100% give away however. Kathy Bittorf
Is that for all breeds merles must be bred only to a black and tan point.?
If you think regular sable merles are cryptic, you should see Maltese sable merles! There are several reasons I did not personally retain a Maltese blue by Jake for breeding (most of them involving their mellowness making them not especially suited for farm work), but one of them was the fact that this is what a Maltese sable merle looks like: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9929374@N03/6067504257/in/set-72157627364411297 Accidental double merle breedings could happen if Maltese blues were mistaken for dd, as well.
Had I chosen a pup who also happened to be Maltese like Jake, I would’ve proceeded in breeding this color with care. That is part of the reason I continued to talk about how it appeared to inherit dominantly, despite being laughed at initially for claiming it wasn’t dd. I’m glad I eventually caught Leigh’s attention, as I believe further research of this color is important. It and Jake’s family have enough of a following that I don’t believe they’re going away anytime soon.
Merry
Well, Merry thank God! Solid good collie breeding combining modern technology. Fantastic! The maltese has been a matter of study for decades. Glad the collie has Dr. Leigh Clark now.
Now if only will get the color registry more comprehensible to the average or beginning breeder.
I believe Jake is a blast from the past we only need to form a new breeding pattern that is less lethal, as you obviously have begun to do. Thank you for all collies everywhere. Those dark rich intense colors so long not seen. Indeed Jake represents pigmentation in collies with that rich brown markings. Thank you for all responsible breeders out there. Kathy
Part of what makes it so difficult to understand is that color terminology is so messed up – a lot of people refer to homozygous merles as “double dilute”.
Funny that the color seems to be linked to a specific temperament – do you know if this holds true for other maltese colored collies?
By the way, did the sable merle puppy have lighter colored eyes and nose? And are Jake’s eyes two different colors? I have a netbook, so it’s hard to get a really good look at some pictures.
Jana, Jake has the most beautiful chestnut brown eyes. I can try and get a close up picture of them if you would like this weekend. Kathe
Yes, I’d love to see! It looks like he has a black nose, too, not gray like you’d expect.
Jana, can you send me a e-mail from my web site and I can get some pictures off to you? His nose is black.
Kathe
So Sorry Jana did not mean just the sable merle could be cryptic it is the merle gene as well a ghost, phantom or cryptic when the dilution of white comes in to the genetic patterning. The merle gene can be hidden under the white of a canine coat phenotype. This is accordance with scientific study results. The S locus has had some serious changes based on scientific results and identifications. Postulations of Little regarding Irish patterning and Pseudo Irish patterning. SINE/MITF. Piebald. Check out the updates.
It might be helpful to begin doing gene markers for merle gene when using white merles, and heavy white factored collies. It could be most enlightening. Some seem to disagree that a double dilute is mistaken identification for a white merle. The Collie color chart is no longer written in stone. It needs some serious updating. Kathy
Homozygous merle = white cripple. Actually hadn’t heard that term before, although “lethal white” is a popular term.
I was a little confused as to what Reagan meant when she/he posted “a black and tan dog out of a double merle breeding”. I assumed it meant a breeding in which one parent was a double merle, but it could also mean a merle x merle breeding. In which case, 25% of the puppies would be nonmerle.
Jana: I think many would be surprised in collies to find just how many phenotypical expressions homogous merle could express in varies coat and eye, nose and coat patterns.
They all do not look like white cripples from my personal studies. I say Kudos to the UK for reading the American research results and taking the first step to protect the breed in Europe. They recognize that research on White Spotting in Dogs, and Cream Color dogs began continuing studies that remains a work in progress. The blue merle cryptic is not nearly as problematic generally. It takes a little experience but it is easier to spot in a new born. It might disappear within the first couple of days..it might only be a few hairs under the front upper arm. If you look early you will find it. However, the sable pigmentation is greatly affected by dilutions of white pigmentation. Mixing blue merles with sable merles takes on a life of its own. Have you seen the red merles in collies? How about Chocolate? Kathy
Yes, I’ve seen the red merles! I nabbed a few pictures off a classified website a few years ago of a red-headed white and red pup (one of the pictures shows a red and a normal sable puppy wrestling). Also had a red one in rescue recently, he was listed as aussie mix but looked all collie but for the color.
Never seen chocolate, though. Is that a dilute of tri? Have you seen the slate-gray blue merle? If I chose dogs by color, that would be my next dog.
Jana: Before jumping into the frying pan best get up with the D dilution recessives “d’ and d/d. Kathy
No, not dilute – just a variation on merle, apparently:
http://www.freewebs.com/bellacollies/jake.htm
Oh Jana glad Chris put up the herding bunnt today. Jake’s breeders are repeating collie history they must think they can reinvent the wheel. Wish Dr. Lee Ford was still with us to study with Dr. Shiela Schmutz. Sorry I am still laughing about the herding bunny.
We had a 4H project of my daughter years ago Thumper a 30 pound King Rex Mix. Every hunting dog in the neighborhood respect him as well. Kathy
Seriously, Thank goodness Dr. Leigh Clark at Clemson is on the job. Jake is a merle and what happens when you red and blue together? Now will those breed to him utilize the VwD test and Lethal Gray? Kathy
Jana and Kathy, I have met Jake personally and he is a wonderful, healthy collie. I have had a litter sired by Jake here at my house, and I own one of his (tricolor headed white) daughters. His color, “maltese,” is a variation of merle and is perfectly healthy. He has sired two litters of seven and six pups each when bred to a tri, and one litter of ten pups when bred to a sable. All pups were very normal, HEALTHY puppies.
No one is planning to breed Jake to a red collie that I know of. 🙂
Jana please realize that I do not have the PhD or formal education degrees in these fields. It is just guessotyping. We will have to wait for Dr. Leigh Clark, and Dr. Shiela Schmutz to collect the necessary scientific evidence and then the discovery of this mutation of the recessives of the Agouti Locus modifying the phenotype expression of coat color. The unidentified gene modifer of the ay and at recessive
by apparently a dominant gene. The brindle is a dominant over recessives regardless if it double a^y or double a^t. This is manner in which Scientific FACT is derived. Not therory or postulations just guessotyping from my postulations as I ATTEMPT to postulate with the Postulators. Your Jake has been identified as a merle and registered as a blue merle. It would appear
guessotyping is obviously a combination of several modifers (old terminlogy) mutations.
Remember that believe it was Dr. Schmutz discovered and identified the mutation that kicks in the expression of fawn/sable.
The K locus was formed for the last letter in black. The brindle gene is found in this locus as well. Important to fawn/sable phenotype canines to express the fawn/sable there must be the presence ky/ky.
We now realize that some collies carry the brindle gene from this K Locus changing the phenotype express with what old terminology term would be a cryptic tri. If a cryptic tri was used for breeding cautious breeders would breed only to another tri. Some breeders would not breed a cryptic and warned against the practice. Likely terms like maltese will likely be replaced, or reveal the modifer of the merle gene to make clear its expression.
Kathy
Jana honesty the BC Museum will display alot of photos to study coat color patterns in visual. It is not a collie but honestly they all inherit the coat color patterns by the same combinations of genes from the same Locus if present. Likewise there are only two patterns by which all canines inherited the white pigmentation…maybe with two breeds exceptions. It is a work in progress but amazing differences to old theory.
There is nothing unique about coat color patterns in collies from my personal studies and scientific results thus far. The collie was used to create the Aussie…the Border Collie apparently is the foundation of the collie breed. The Shetland Sheepdog blue merles seems to be well documented now all to have come from cross breeding with collies.
BB black dog Bb Black dog carrying a brown recessive bb a brown dog..add the recessive d and you can have chocolate…slate…
I have seen red merles in collies up close and personal look around …you will see them on web pages. Pedigrees and all…The ones I have seen are most definitely double merles in my opinion…. Modifers yet unidentified or tested from my personal studies. We have alot to learn …and no point in guessotyping. There are markers just remain unused by too many in collies. That is what happens when you believe you know it all. Kathy
Linda of course you can but for how many generations. Kathy
Linda I think your question is quite a good one. First we know that Dr. Leigh Clark has stated after finding the modifer mutation of the harlequin gene that she postulates other modifers of the merle gene yet to be found. The merle gene is closer to a semi or incomplete dominant. The the merle gene must be present for the harlequin pattern to express. Have you seen the harlequin collies?
We have also the new term under study called the ‘merle ocular degenesis’. These eye abnormalities are apparent commmon denominators among breeds where double merling is a common issue? Examples are colobomas, micropthalmia….
Lastly we have also learned of the somatic mutation cell characteristic of the merle which reverses the pigmentation to normal.
This apparently is the reasoning some homogous merles can hear or see or both due to somatic cell mutation reversing pigmentation to normal such as inner ear…
If I understand the somatic mutation cell mapping correctly inheritance of the somatic muatation cell will not pass on to the offspring. This could be problematic to next generation?
Could we speculate or postulate there is a genotypical offspring difference between a black and tan point from a merle sire and merle dam and the tri from a sable sire and black and tan point dam collie? What will scientific discovery and identification yet discover?
Kathy Bittorf
Please note the merle chi shown at http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/merle.html
— apparently ee red also masks merle.
Peggy Richter.
Yes, Peggy it seems many collie folks look at the study and findings of Dr. Shiela Schmutz on Genetic Coat Color in Dogs and can not relate it to the collie. Many breed clubs or members address the new scientific findings in other breeds on the web. I have not found one collie web site that updates collie color charts to this new information. It truly leaves the newcomer confused especially they report to me senior breeders and officers state that genetics is leading the collie to genepool extinction. Kathy
How is genetics leading to genepool extinction? I don’t understand what you mean.
Sorry Jana I have no idea what they mean either. There was a time before the CEA and PRA marker rcd2 one would think more than once before breeding into any line.
Now with the markers some of the those scary collie lines can be used a marker and eye examine. .
Genetic markers have open the gene pool in my personal point of view.
Don’t rock the boat…they are resting on the laurels of fify years or more theories.
When eye checks were our breeding tool many strongly beleved it was “Throwing the baby out with the bathwater” for eliminating collies with colobomas and detachments in one’s breeding program. Now the cry is genetics will cause lack of genetic diversity. Like I said, here to learn from educationed informed breeders. I am weary of doing all the research myself. Like to know where the collie would be today without the old principles with over 67 percent of collies affected with CEA? Kathy
Kathy
Jana I truly do not understand this either. Let us first address the Statement made by Physics or “string theory” to reduce the complexity of human understanding with concepts of dimensions.
Let us take a Quantum Leap onto the Lily Pad in a clear pond with goldfish.
Just like the fish who knows nothing of your existence or a air breathing species. He however will realize for the first time when he looks at you when you have plucked him out of a environment as he gasp for water to breath.
Molecular Biology and Genetics due to new technology offer a 4th dimensional viewpoint of breeding our dogs with molecular data,
genetic identification to three dimensional theory for responsible breeders. Kathy
Yes, Peggy it seems many collie folks look at the study and findings of Dr. Shiela Schmutz on Genetic Coat Color in Dogs and can not relate it to the collie. Many breed clubs or members address the new scientific findings in other breeds on the web. I have not found one collie web site that updates collie color charts to this new information. It truly leaves the newcomer confused especially they report to me senior breeders and officers state that genetics is leading the collie to genepool extinction. Kathy
Peggy yes you can read for yourself the varies breeds identified as cream coat coats study by Dr. Shiela Schmutz right on line. Kathy
Now Jana do you and others not realize this Jake has been excepted from a breeder who has done DNA study from a Farm Collie Breeder as a blue merle? Did you read the entire web site? Sunnybank link? Did they not read Terhune’s story about Grey Dawn? Have they not traced the pedigrees of early Champions who were grey collies in Champion bloodlines? Can you not see the two tris that one is more charcoal than black? Kathy
Which part of Gray Dawn is relevant to Jake? Actually, he looks like I always pictured the dog from “Bob, Son of Battle”; the grey dogs of Kenmuir.
Do you mean he was accepted from a farm collie breeder, or he was excepted (as in excluded)? I skimmed the site; lots of dogs are traceable to Sunnybank, or even to Lassie, but it doesn’t make them worth more or less.
Pedigree research is interesting, in part because the terminology is kind of eclectic. For instance, both color-headed white and homozygous merles may be registered as “white”.
Jana that is quite correct. Review how the studies now determine what genetically these terms represent in new breeding tools that are a heart beat from your finger tips. Kathy
Gee Jana must have been so busy taking care of the mess created long before anyone living certainly must have created by accident. It is from memory that Grey Dawn was blind. We are not reinventing the wheel here. Are you going to blame Terhune, and take him to court for something he could not have had any prior knowledge? Kathy
Jana do you realize Jake is registered as a blue merle with the AKC? Dr. Leigh Clark from my personal studies postulates there are other dominant merle modifers of this gene besides harlequin? She is currently studying Jake’s phenotype expression? You did look at what Jake has produced? Small litter…? Looked up Widdershins Farm Collies as well in Washington State.
Did you note the two tris on Bella Collies Site…one is black and the other is more charocoal …recesssive ‘d’. Boy is this old terminology losing alot of folks.
Kathy Bittorf
Well, it does say right on the website that Jake is registered as a blue merle, so yes I did realize that. I looked at the two tri puppies, and they just looked like regular tris to me.
Glendale collies, who owns Jake’s sire, never bred their red to the blue (blue-headed white, actually) because both were merles. They never had any illusions about the dog *not* being a merle. The only other reds I’ve seen were just pets, not breeding animals.
I see your point Jana. Much ado about not much of anything. Someone dominating this group does ‘research’ without credentials and does postulations off the backs of others scientifically proven research and theories. One cannot accurately state facts from one’s own ‘guesstyping’ unless such guesstyping is proven through repeatable scientific method. Wild abandoned Alarm is unjustified.
Well, now here lies the mountain slide to cut them off at the past combination folks.
Two breeders they label as puppy mills. Elaine know you joined the Foundation.Have you joined with the Apostles of Queen Jean yet?
Think twice about this membership because you need to get yourself a new book that I am
reviewing past knowledge and getting up to date for a private and personal family venture. “Nonprofit Law & Governance for DUMMIES”. a Reference for the Rest if of US?
The Foundation is in good shape as well as
CCA due to true professional in this field has now remained as Treasurer once straightening out fines for not filing. You see there are guidepost. You see AWCA non for profit status was set in the State of Ohio where the Founders lived. The CCA status lies in the State of New York.
You also might like to bone up in this territory before they make one of you an Officer. Check the charter ..it was never set up to do Rescue just as State and Federal filed documents would reveal.
Now who taught you that term? “Wild abandoned Alarm?
Could this be from the Moderators of a chat list? Remember when I told you, when I caught you giving out my personal phone number to her? Yes, I was warned there was retaliation coming from this site last evening. As I told you then, I trusted you not to ever do this again. You seemed so alone struggling for answers. I under estimated your desires to have your dream of having a champion and over estimated your methods to get it. I warned you do it once shame on you. Next time will be shame on me. I did exactly recently what I originally told you that I would do. I turned away and put you on Spam. Shaking the sand from my sandals …and left you alone to take your census of opinions to make your own choices. Sorry must have something to do with your mother being born on the same day if we could again try to grasp the String Theory of Physics.
To Kathy: Who was my best friend in dogs for 3 years until you suddenly started insulting me…I have never given out your phone number to anyone and don’t plan to. So therefore you couldn’t possibly have ‘caught’ me doing so. I don’t even have your number any more. If I am a member of a Foundation it’s news to me. To the best of my knowledge I am not a member. It is my right to be friends with whomever I choose. I won’t descend to the level of breeder bashing as you did so many, many times in hundreds of emails and phone calls. Have a good life, but know that I have never given out personal information about you. Elaine Nance.
Well, excuse me for not having the right for any choices. I told you how I felt about that sight and why. Dr. Jean Dodds, DVM and Editor of the Collie Review Boycott closed her magazine down. Why because the last of education died when this magazine closed. She frequently wrote and produced information of Dr. Jean Dodds the leading Worldwide Hemotogolist and textbook for students of Veterinary Medicine.
I told you dropped my membership from the Foundation when Dr. Dodds offered to take a position on Board for her expertise on grants for research as they had been unwisely distributing “In Trust Funds from Estates” in my observations and opinion.
Now what was their excuse? This wonderful gracious human being had made two mistakes. One she was ask to give court testimony without seeking the help of legal counsel.
The legal eagle let her read from her prepared speech, and then stopped her at a critical point of her testimony…Good lawyers trick in my opinion.
Many never read the full statement —only where a crafty lawyer stopped the testimony. They formed bias opinions filled with lots of propaganda.
There were breeders with legal genepools and …
Obviously knowledge such as this is considered Breeder Bashing? You have a nasty way of misrepresenting personal tutoring by me. I kept telling you this is not about pedigrees, or looking for someone to blame. Glad there is documentation that I never representd myself as anything by a student who was postulating, as I read the studies such as “MITF White Spotting in Dogs”
Anyone that would take their personal issues to public forum is never going to be a friend of mine. Sorry we come from different worlds. You get your feathers ruffled and lash out at people to much.
s how one in sciences make new discoveries.
Well, excuse me for not having the right to be respected for my choices when someone does not respect my friends and right to personal privacy as well. No you do not have my new number because I changed it.
So are you telling me that someone you chat on these chat sites or some other Breeder that Kate, Karen or other is responsible for the Moderator requesting by phone to take part in genetic conversations? A sight who sees genetic advancement and participates in the Slippery Slope of Animal Rights fear tactics. A posting that appeared on this list as a genetic hobbyist that was so far off base in moderator’s interpretation and comprehension it was outrageous.
Treat this like a final divorce document ..no property…no kids. Its over.
I told you how I felt about that sight and why. Dr. Jean Dodds, DVM and Editor of the Collie Review Boycott closed her magazine down. Why because the last of education died when this magazine closed. She frequently wrote and produced information of Dr. Jean Dodds the leading Worldwide Hemotogolist and textbook for students of Veterinary Medicine.
I told you dropped my membership from the Foundation when Dr. Dodds offered to take a position on Board for her expertise on grants for research as they had been unwisely distributing “In Trust Funds from Estates” in my observations and opinion.
Now what was their excuse? This wonderful gracious human being had made two mistakes. One she was ask to give court testimony without seeking the help of legal counsel.
The legal eagle let her read from her prepared speech, and then stopped her at a critical point of her testimony…Good lawyers trick in my opinion.
Many never read the full statement —only where a crafty lawyer stopped the testimony. They formed bias opinions filled with lots of propaganda.
There were breeders with lethal genepools and …
Obviously knowledge such as this is considered Breeder Bashing? You have a nasty way of misrepresenting personal tutoring by me. I kept telling you this is not about pedigrees, or looking for someone to blame. Glad there is documentation that I never representd myself as anything by a student who was postulating, as I read the studies such as “MITF White Spotting in Dogs”
Anyone that would take their personal issues to public forum is never going to be a friend of mine. Sorry we come from different worlds. You get your feathers ruffled and lash out at people to much like a wild animal. Like my grandmother said, “Feel sorry for somebody, and you end up feeling sorry for yourself” No one needs pity.
Kate: When I looked at your site…saw your Calico marked collies…I postulated as have given consideration for the same move myself. Kathy
Yes, Stormy is a tri-factored harlequin sable merle who in her last litter, bred to my non-white factored sable male, produced SEVEN harlequin merles (four sable merle and three blue merle), a tri, and a sable…
Kate this sounds like a Great Dane Litter.
Jake years ago believe would have been called Battleship Grey. Kathy Bittorf
Well, I don’t know if it’s the same genetically speaking as the harlequin in Danes, but it does seem to cover up the “blue” part of the merle in s blue merle, leaving a mostly black and white dog, much like a harlequin Great Danes…
sorry about typos, UGH
Jana yes it does. Kathy
Jana not to worry about typos we all do it when Chris provids the “THINK pieces” It has been great for me doing all this research findings with no communication..I continuous felt like saying…”Beam me up Scotty”.
There are so many great sites in other breeds but have no fear ..you are intelligent because you question. I will try to find a link where they visualize from puppy to adult coat with black and either called smoky black, slate…or please. Genetics will help get past the old terms, once you realize the shading expression seen in canines from varies breeds are the same Locus with only differences of pattern. Our collie is not that unique. Look up Coat Color Genetics Catahoula. You will note the cryptic expression of merle gene. Take that test and see if you can find the merles and double merles. Kathy
Jana: The question of eye color would be best answered by the breeder. The expert that found “Coat Color in Dogs” series of posting states it is still guessotyping even with good photos, and even hands on…guesstyping does not replace gentotyping. The breeder might respond. Kathy
Gee Kate I would guess his nose would be black with this pattern. Kathy
Jana I have taken more than a second look at the link. We know that from old knowledge that the merle gene was identified as an incomplete dominant this has been identified in this collie by scientific fact with a gene marker. This however specimen in fact is not a phenotype typical blue merle.
It has been described by the first owner as having a overlay of grey like old term maltese in my opinion from observations and personal studies. I personally have never produced a maltese.
The presence of a brindle gene as well has been speculated has been documented here on the blog. She turned the research to Dr. Leigh Clark as she is the color pattern expert. We see on Dr. Schmutz update in January, 2012 that the collie, Border Collie is on the list of identified brindle gene in the breed. The brindle gene is a dominant not a recessive and likely can dominant over a semi-dominant or incomplete dominant as the merle gene. Kathy Bittorf
Don’t look now but a Wyndlair Avalanche get just won BOV at Westminster. I guess vision now comes secondary to beauty. Is this REALLY the message we want to convey to the general public?
Wish I could say I’m surprized but considering I know of a Neapolitain that won many fairly high up shows was producing cripples with skin conditions & a Cav that had had it’s own elbows operated on & then went on to win not just breed but his group & runner up over all nothing can surprize me anymore when it comes to the dog show world.
@ Brie
I DO know Matt & Anita Stelter. They obviously have you fooled. They will do ANYTHING for a ribbon at ANY cost. It matters not to them that they are doing the breed a dis service with their reckless breeding practices. I also hold CCA responsible for looking the other way on this issue. I have done and continue to do everything in my power to shut them down. I have notified animal control in their county that they have at least 1 blind dog on their property. I have also notified Matt’s employer; Dr. Fosters & Smith of his actions and I am currently petitioning AKC to have BOTH of their judging licenses revoked. We do not need these 2 idiots bringing the rest of the ethical breeders down.
@ collielover1
You are entitled to your opninion. But please do not question me or my ability to make my own decesions regarding who is and is not a reputable collie breeder. They have given my no reason to doubt anything they have ever said to me. But please stay on your soapbox and try to get them banned, suspended, revoked or anything else. The truth will always win out and their home, and breeding practices will show that they are good stewards of the collie breed.
So good stewards of the collie breed intentionally breed blind dogs?
What if they took a hot poker from the fire and just gouged his eyes out?
Would they still be good stewards of the collie breed?
Retrieverman recently posted..Tiny chameleons discovered in Madagascar
Their house is clean and they say lots of pretty words, that’s what ‘ethics’ means, right? =P
what’s their home got to do with it? As for their breeding pratices yeah we can all see how good they are they produced a blind & deaf dog & then offered him to others to bred their own “special” collies from but it’s Ok becuase some of the offspring are winning ribbons. I think I well understand where their morals are at.
To all, I hope I can cover all of this. They did not intentionally breed a blind dog. The undertook a MM mating and that is what was produced. Not all MM offspring are blind or deaf. And intentionally causing pain to a dog by taking “a hot poker from the fire and just gouged his eyes out” is completely different then providing a home to a dog that was born deaf and blind. Would your preference have been for them to kill him? So yes I believe that they are being good stewards. When I refered to their home I was commenting on the enviornment that they provide all of their dogs, not the actual house. You may all disagree with what they did but it was not a thoughtless breeding, further it is not a common occurence in the collie world nor is it a common practice for them. You may believe him to be defective or unhealthy or many other things because of his breeding. He may be blind and deaf, but he is not unhealthy or defective in any way.
As far as ethics goes that is a much longer discussion. But the truth is ethics is subjective like many other things. What you or somebody else belives is ethical is one thing and may be different from someone else presented with the same set of circumstances. All I can say is that as far as I am aware they have not nor do they currently violate the CCA code of ethics.
Don’t be a freaking moron. Each pup in a merle x merle litter has a 25% chance of being defective. There is no way to predict how many pups will be defective and how defective they will be.
TO DO A MERLE X MERLE BREEDING IS INTENTIONALLY PRODUCING DEFECTIVE DOGS.
Period.
As a backyard breeder, I would get skewered for doing such a breeding.
Jess recently posted..Dogs were not created by inbreeding– but they are being destroyed by it
25% chance is much higher than the chance of getting deformity from breeding sable to sable or tri to tri.
It’s intentional. They knew what the chances were.
They did it anyway.
I don’t care who they are.
What they did involved intent!
Retrieverman recently posted..Santorum’s sugar daddy is a sexist pig
I am not being a moron, just looking at percentages. As you pointed out they have a 25% chance of being deaf and/or blind. (That does not make them defective). They therefore have a 75% chance of having no sight or hearing problems. Seems like the odds were they wouldn’t get a blind/deaf dog.
Well, if you want a dog to come when you call and not run into walls, it’s pretty defective, dontcha think?
Retrieverman recently posted..Santorum’s sugar daddy is a sexist pig
They are meant to be a herding dog & I just can’t see a blind collie would be very valueable to me getting my sheep in.
I suppose when looking pretty is your number 1 goal for a dog blindness is such a big deal though.
But the odds are significantly higher than if they bred a merle to a tri with no merle.
Odds are higher. Much higher.
And they knew this.
That’s what’s wrong.
Retrieverman recently posted..Santorum’s sugar daddy is a sexist pig
My goodness 25% risk is terrible odds, it’s the same for framed overo to framed overo breedings in horses & no one with any dignanty risks that breeding in horses os why should they in dogs.
A dog deserves to have full sight & to take a chance where you know 1 in EVERY 4 pups will have sight issues if not be completely blind is just not defendable EVER! 1 out of 4 thats just not good odds given that most healthy fertile bitches produce approx 6 to 8 pups. Your saying so what if 2 pups in the litter are blind the other 6 are OK!!!!
Do you sleep well at night knowing your defending someone playing god with a dogs sight when it could have been completly avoidable? I mean it’s not like they had to breed a merle to merle litter they did it because they wanted to & to buggery with the outcome & the pups health, wellbeing 7 life style.
Brie, your last sentence is wrong. When a breeder chooses to do a merle to merle breeding, the odds are that they WILL get some blind and/or deaf pups. On average, one out of every four pups in the litter will be blind and deaf. (The reality in the merle to merle litters I’ve seen is that closer to half of the pups are double merle.) And of course, you could get really unlucky–ALL the pups could be double merle! You just never know…
You will find very few people outside of the show world who find that sort of breeding to be ethical. It’s not really a “grey area” lol.
Yeah, Kate, but they can just bucket that one, unless they want it to make all merle litters. After all, the rest of the pups *should* be okay!
Jess recently posted..Dogs were not created by inbreeding– but they are being destroyed by it
It is more of the Old Wives tales, the ones such as the tri’s are phantoms that likely have esperienced genetically “Somatic cell mutations”.
Do not play numbers games. 25% is ONE in FOUR. If we skew it from a one in four chance for each pup to one quarter of the puppies produced, that is STILL PRODUCING A DEFECTIVE PUPPY ON PURPOSE.
Dogs being what they are, you could get more, or you could get less. I have seen litters between a black and tan and a red carrying black and tan produce only two b/t out of seven pups. I have seen a similar litter produce ALL b/t pups. The genetic cookie crumbles strangely.
There is no magic formula that will tell an ‘experienced’ breeder how many fucked up puppies they are going to have from a merle x merle breeding, nor how badly they will be fucked up. In this instance, ALL BREEDERS, be they show breeders or puppy mills, ARE THE SAME. Being a show breeder does not automatically confer some kind of magical morality in a merle x merle breeding.
The so-called Fancy needs to check itself, because there are NO NORMAL PEOPLE, ie PET OWNERS, ie THE GENERAL PUBLIC, which would consider a one in four chance to be ACCEPTABLE.
Such a breeding, frankly, makes the breeder look like an inhuman monster that cares NOT about the pups produced as living, breathing, feeling beings, but for what they can do for the breeder. The public, who is ignorant about breeding in general, is properly horrified at such conduct.
I am a breeder, and I take great pains to NOT produce DEFECTIVE puppies. I take GREAT OFFENSE at selfish, arrogant, kool-aide drinking MORONS who make all breeders look like idiots.
A NORMAL dog can see and hear. One that has compromised function, or develops compromised function, due to BREEDING PRACTICES and NOT normal aging, degeneration, or accident, is DEFECTIVE. Certainly there are conditions that do not have tests available, but DOUBLE MERLE is not one of them. DOUBLE MERLE DEFECTS ARE EASY TO AVOID. A RESPONSIBLE BREEDER AVOIDS PRODUCING DEFECTIVE PUPPIES.
I am going to be seriously PISSED if kool-aide drinking morons, like YOU BRIE, fuck things up for me and the other ethical breeders I know, for the sake of a colored bit of ribbon and an ego rush.
Jess recently posted..Dogs were not created by inbreeding– but they are being destroyed by it
Jess,
I just wanted to say well said & you said everything i was trying to say but in a much more pointed & straight forward way.
NO ONE thinks taking a 1 in 4 chance is acceptable bar the people who gain from the breeding in some way & they are seen to be unethic uncaring ribbon chasers by the magority of breeders & the general public.
I will bet the ONLY breeders saying it is a worth while risk is because they have already or are willing to take a similar risk in the future with thier breeds ongoing health & well being.
First rule breeders should go in with is do cause no harm knowingly to the breed your involved in & to leave it in as good if not better shape than you went into the breed, well this damn well causing harm knowingly.
If the Collie breeds don’t take a stand against this they are not going to have much of a breed left to show in another 10 years. The breeds working ability has already been all but destroyed in many bloodlines, it’s suffered from tight inbreeding due to the popular sire symdrom & now it’s health is being totally compramised. Even without the merle debate the outcome of breeders breeding for extreme type(yet again putting ribbons above health)has been tiny badley set eyes & wedge shaped heads that will start afecting brain space & breathing. This was a working dog & the old Scott farmers would be turning in their graves to see whats become of their breed. Function & working ability just don’t seem to matter at all if these people are willing to produce blind dogs at a rate of 1 in every 4.
Read our standard. Our standard specifically calls for a lean wedge shaped head. If you see a different head on a collie it is a fault. If you want to critique our breed then please read our standard first.
“bears a general resemblance to a well-blunted lean wedge, being smooth and clean in outline and nicely balanced in proportion”
It also states that the head should be inclined to lightness and not to be heavy headed.
Um…with all due respect, the standard also says “medium eye,” and the eye on most collies in the ring today is so far from “medium,” it is a joke. “Medium” implies that there is a smaller eye out there–well the eye on many of today’s show collies couldn’t get any smaller without being microscopic, so on what planet is that considered “medium”? Sorry, pet peeve of mine. They need to rewrite the standard and describe the eye as “microscopically small” if they want the dogs out there today to be correct.
Who wrote your standard?
Moses?
Standards are written by people who often wouldn’t know their arses from holes in the ground– and very often they designed to promote some grand poobah’s dogs over the rest.
And of course, the judges just ignore the standard whenever they see something they determine is correct, which comes through groupthink.
The whole damn thing is corrupt.
It’s like getting lectures from a religious person who tells you it’s true because it’s in the bible and the bible was written by God.
But it obviously wasn’t.
Retrieverman recently posted..Miley update
Chris “We the People in Order to form a more
perfect Union…” We the people …the consumer –” Many have broke from the Giants of Dog food. We travel to Pet Stores and many fine dog food companies will not even stock the shelves of chain pet stores.
We the consumer have the opportunity to make our voices heard and respected wake up. Pedigree broke from that chain, and they help the Rescued and Rescuers. Wait up people you can no longer sit wishing..Your opportunity as a consumer is HERE!!
Retrieverman recently posted..Miley update
Yes it should have a wedge shaped head but why has it gotten more extreme over the years & WHy are their eyes all but dissapearing?
I have read tthe standard for what it’s worth.
The STANDARD calls for medium eyes yet I am not seeing many medium eyed Collies these days either.
The wedge shaped head of today is so they have something to put on the floor and hold the door open with, when they need both hands to carry heavy packages into the house!
Yeah, I’m being sarcastic.
Well maybe the eyes are being made ever smaller in conjunction with the coat growing bigger, as sort of a protective measure? The tiny eye makes the dog less likely to be jabbed in the eye with a comb, or to get hairspray or chalk in its eyes! :/
Well Sam, I have a number of collies with a medium almond and I can show you some other kennels. Basically, that is what wins in the ring. It would seem that the platettes of the skull lenghten to extreme the orbit which houses the eye loses deepth like streching a thick rubber band. The mutations caused by insertions at the MITF combined with a SINE gene. Where was the merle gene identified and found by Dr. Leigh Clark et,al? Same place an insertion at the MITF. Now just what is a sine/SINE gene?
These of some of my direct personal STUDENT OR HOBBY studies Notes.
1. The presence of SINE insertion fit a codominant pattern of inheritance.
2. Studies revealed in the “MITF White Spotting in Dogs: Population Study revealed -“Dogs without the SINE and heterozygotes had minimalor no white markings”
3. Exonic SINE insertion in STK38L causes early retina degeneration crd?/20887780
http://www.nchi.nlm, nih.gov/pubmed
4. Retrotransposon insertion in SILV….
5. Novel Retinal Degeneration Locus was Identified by Linage and Comparative Mapping of Canine “Early” (not late)Retinal Degeneration” source Genomics Volume 59, issue 2 July 1999 Pages 134-142
6. Note found on AKC site…”Microphthalmia, Merle in Dogs,,,(seems they are advising breeders to stay informed on latest progress in genetic and molecular science? (Question why is this not up on Breed web sites?)
7. Exonic insertion in PTPLA gene leads to multiple splicing defects and segregates…
8. HETEROZYGOSITY for retrotransposon insrtion in Silv AND A MUTATION in H causes a pattern black patcheson a white background…www.mendeley.com/reseach/
missense—mutation-20s-proteasome-2-su
“A missense mutation in 20s proteqasom B2 subunit …(Great Dane)
9. “Short interspersed elemens (SINE are mobile elements that contribute to genomic diversity through addition of genetic material”
5.
Agree no number games and theory genetics. It seems in reality from personal studies there can be up to three in a litter AFAIK.
Please I do not have the creditals this is just observations, and personal studies not scientific FACT. If we understand now as Chris has graciously shared his fact finding tour the number of lethal genes…Now if you bred a hairless to a hairless they just come out with no teeth AFAIK in personal studies. However, if you breed a Bobtail to Bobtail you sorta run into the same problem of Lethal white horses. They die from their own waste from my personal studies.
Gosh readers check out Chris’arhives. It is all written in layterms/breeder friendly.
Thank you Jess for saying what I did more than a decade ago. Hope no one has the gull to tell you to take a pill, or that you have a persecution complex.
Okay I am done taking abuse from people calling me a moron and swearing at me. I am a respectable breeder,and ethical breeder and never in my life have I ever done a MM breeding. I do not do anything for a colored ribbon or an ego boost. You do not know me or how I breed so do not assue you do. I do howeve have loyalty and I will trust the people I know and work with in the collie world before I ever trust a bunch of anonymous people thinking they can make a difference by airing their grievances this way. If you want to change the way the parent club runs or what is acceptable per our ethics then take it up with you local club or the parent club. DO NOT take it out on me.
Well, I can tell you this.
I have no respect for you.
So that makes you not a respected collie breeder in my book.
Retrieverman recently posted..Miley update
Retrieverman I am crushed. I really thought we had something. I think I can live without your respect, beacuase the people that matter do.
Or just ignore the parent club and AKC and breed your own collies back to the old working collie type with some healthy outcrosses, like in the old days.
There’s no school like the old school!
Brie we all can not be Albert Einstein so join my club. Who could have even guessed when they first displayed a litter of colored puppies in catahouolas that there were possibilitiy our pigmented collies could be silently carrying the aftermath so to speak of blind and deaf double merles it would seem.
We did not know that the merle gene has a characteristic of somatic mutation cell where there is a reversal of pigmentation to normal pigment. ..did we however name it possibly white factoring? Some of us just did not have a crystal ball. Now we know however, there is no excuse to continue this practice in my opinion.
“Not all” MM offspring are blind or deaf, which is the same as saying “some could” be. This is a horrid chance to take and not necessary. But you really don’t get it, do you? It WAS intentional. THey said “Wellll, it could happen but it might not. Let’s just see what happens.”
La de daaaa de daaaa. No biggie!
What a terrible attitude to have towards living creatures.
You must remember that genetics is not 100% predictable. High school biology tells us that much. A 25% chance is a significant enough chance, especially with collies which produce fair sized litters, but that’s assuming a much larger sample. Since nature will always throw a curveball at us, you can’t take that with a grain of salt. If you’re really lucky, you might end up with no MM, or one or two MM, but you’ll usually end up with much higher than that.
I’m not saying that deaf or blind dogs can’t live a full, happy life, but why the hell would you intentionally breed so that you’re almost assured to produce a defective dog? Particularly in collies, a breed created to work sheep. A deaf or blind dog would be useless as a sheep dog, and even if you breed for the show ring I think that they should be capable of doing what they were originally intended to do.
Bridget not yet in any case because it remains a work in progress. Is there not enough evidence and FACTS of scientific Proof Yet to continue to justify old breeding theory?
I did not take out anything on you I just disagree with some of your thinking!
How you can defend anyone who takes a 1 in 4 chance on a dogs health is beyond me is all. All they had to do was wait until a non merle mate that met their needs came along but no they did not they risked their bloodlines on going health & well being instead.
Sorry thats just not right, I have waited up to 8 years for the right dog, so why could they just not wait a season or so WHY???
I respect your 8 years Sam and THEN some!
The reason you don’t wait is because the girl might die, or lose her fertility or any one of a number of things. I had a beautiful bitch that in my mind was a close to the standard as you could get, and she could herd, and run agility to boot. I waited until I had all the titles on her that I wanted and then I began stud shopping. It took me forever but I finally found one that I really liked and thought would be a beautiful compliment to my girl, the down side was his owner would not make him avaliable for stud until he finished his CH. So I waited through two seasons, on that second season she got a raging case of pyo. I had no choice it was either spay her or lose her. To this day I wished I had settled for perhaps a less perfect stud, because now I don’t have anything to carry on that beautiful look of my girl.
Yep thats the risk you take but I would rather wait & end up with no litter than to risk deaf & blind pups at a rate of 1 out of every 4 pups born, so the argument means very little to me.
Also we all love our dogs but facts are if the bitch dies whilst waiting you get another bitch as I sincerly doubt your bitch was the ONLY bitch to have these points going for her. Your argument for not waiting is really an emotional argument & we should never let emotions run our breeding pratices.
The pup in on my profile pic carries the same genes as my male without the entropian so I get a second shot just as anyone else could. I also will ONLY mate her to the right dog & if that means she never whelps because I can not find the right dog so be it. It will be sad for me but no real loss to the breed as a whole. I’m sure their are other bitches that carry your bitches bloodlines so she was not irraplacable in a breeding sence just an emotional sence.
I’m sorry but not 1 person has given an aurgument that carries enough weight for me to ever believe ANY merle to merle breeding is acceptable EVER no matter the reasons given!! How can you not see the real reason behind this breeding is totally beyond me.
The only bitch I’ve owned so far that developed pyo had it on her first heat. Defective immune system. There are some breeds prone to pyo and I consider this a prime example of a defective immune system, as bacteria is always involved. The vagina and thus the uterus is not a sterile place, bacteria is normal, and overgrowth and pyo are not. There was a collie breeder on a mailing list I have been on for years that routinely put her bitches on antibiotics during and after a heat starting when they were about four years old, due to pyo. I’d abandon the line before I’d do that.
I usually wait until my bitches are five or six, and I have even had a litter of six out of a nine year old bitch. Breeding older bitches is the norm for large sighthounds, which is probably why they aren’t very prone to pyometra. All of those have been weeded out.
Jess recently posted..Kali is Weird
Yep I agree I would not breed from a line known for pyo or needing steriods to get to full term.
I think we using medications & surgery to breed other wise un breedable dogs. If they can not breed naturally they should not be breed imho. After all nature is already telling us something is not right with the dog why reproduce more a high chanse of having same issues.
Better to never breed if the right one doesn’t come along, then take big chances on bringing defective animals into the world, who have to live with the consequences.
And I note you keep saying my “beautiful” bitch or “beautiful” this or that all the time. I wonder where your values are. I hope you are a supermodel since beauty is so important to you, or can you manage to live with yourself if you are not?
That’s what makes me laugh the hardest sometimes. So many of the breeders and judges who decide what is “beauty” in a dog, including all the extremes of head type, or deformed hips ( as in the GSD), extended necks ( Irish setters ), excessive wrinkles ( shar pei), are in fact, some of the fattest UGGOs I have never seen in my life.
Perhaps some of them are there to compensate for their own insecurities?
Correction! Fattest Uggos that I have EVER seen! EVER, not “never!”
DAMN!
So true same with with human pagents for kids check out the organizers & some of those mums!!!
You are the one that relates the word “beautiful” to the dogs looks. By beautiful I was referring to how she compared to our standard. Which refers to more than just outward beauty. It refers to structure, tempermant and movement. As with people dogs can be beautiful both inside and out. I have seen dogs that while they were lovely to look at were just ill tempered and down right mean. It takes a lot more than just a pretty face to turn my head.
Oh for all that could be righted will someone out there tell of their personal observations of puppies born with organs outside their body? This happen decade or so ago. Not to me, but breeders who no longer breed stories.
Some of the comments posted here are absolutely appalling. Oh, it’s okay if we breed collies that are blind and deaf and god knows what else because, omigosh they’re SO PRETTY! Go home breeder, you are drunk.
Is there anyone out there like me who loves the Collie and aware of the scientific facts of how pathetic this situation for the Collie Breed in REALITY this is?
Southland’s Beyond the Glory (Avalanche’s sire) is not even merle… He’s a sable. Those who are interested should go to Wyndlair’s website and look at Avalanche’s pedigree.
He’s a Sable Merle. His mother was Merle. Avalanche us a double merle. He’s never produced a non merle puppy.
Get your facts straight.
A reputable breeder would not breed merle to merle or ever breed a blind or deaf dog. However, blind and or deaf dogs are not monsters and they are certainly not dumb. Personally, I hate all breeders. With the number of dogs euthanized in the US every year, there should be a moratorium on breeding until every dog has a loving home. I’ve had 3 deaf herding dogs as pets and have fostered others. They are wonderful dogs. It’s not their fault that greedy stupid breeders keep producing them. I say all you breeders should go to Hell and stay there. You produce dogs that have to be taken care of by other people because they don’t meet your standards. Shame on all of you.
> A reputable breeder would not breed merle to merle
Nonsense. The breeders profiled here have tons of reputation. They just don’t have tons of ethics or good sense.
> Personally, I hate all breeders. With the number of dogs euthanized in the US every year, there should be a moratorium on breeding until every dog has a loving home.
Utter stupidity right there. But I’ll welcome you to stop talking until every person in the world stops saying stupid things.
Chris,
I am just breaking into breeding Rough Collies and am constantly researching and through experiences, learning quite a lot in a very short amount of time.
I personally was aware and have been informed of NOT breeding merle to merle and am mortified to read these letters you have received.
I thank you for posting them for those of us who are wanting to truly learn from others mistakes and not to follow in their footsteps.
Why would anyone, pet owner or showdog
professionals take a chance on producing a handicapped dog? In the ring or the backyard
the dogs deserve better. Are these breeders unable to produce dogs, by standards already set, that can compete with the standard traits? Seems like they have failed, so they go out on a limb, trying to establish their own standards, regardless of the dangers.