Wyndlair Avalanche is the exemplar that just keeps on giving. We established in the last post that Avalanche throws puppies with Colobomas: so much for double merle dogs having healthy puppies and not passing along their blindness. The problem with MM blindness is that it can mask hereditary blindness not caused by the merle gene and make diagnosis difficult or impossible, which is the likely case here. We shouldn’t be surprised at this result, as his sire Ch. Southland’s Beyond The Glory has colobomas in both eyes.
Colobomas are from the Greek for 'unfinished' or 'defective.'
Colobomas are defects in the eye resulting from incomplete formation in utero which can affect any tissue within the eye. Colobomas of the iris are most visible to the laymen as the circular shape of the pupil is often distorted into a keyhole shaped opening that is often askew.
Another breeder who was someway involved in bringing this dog on the planet is Ms. Jennifer Duhon. She has some very interesting ideas on what makes a good collie and she also has questionable ethics when it comes to disclosing genetic deficiencies in the puppies she sells. She was suspended from the CCA just last month for selling a blind puppy without disclosing its blindness. Guess who the blind puppy’s grandfather is? That’s right, Avalanche!
In a forum thread that is ironically called “Honest Breeders,” Ms. Jennifer Duhon exposes the logic behind the Avalanche litter (inbreeding highly on a popular sire) and the inability to learn from the mistake. They repeated the Merle x Merle breeding after producing a singleton who was blind and deaf and with poor movement who throws blind offspring. Smart!
Re: Honest Breeders and Novice Education
When I worked for Guy & Thelma Mauldin (Kismet Shelties) one of their big breeding philosophies was to breed the grandparents, not necessarily the parents. I expressed my suprise once at the consistency of virtues in a litter and Guy told me to look at the grandparents.
We bred our Ch. Twin City Wyndlair Anthem (Bowen Island x Ch. Twin City In Living Color) to Ch. Southland’s Beyond The Glory (Bowen Island x Ch. Tapestry Silver Spring). We just knew that litter was destined for something special. Both of the grandfathers are Bowen and the grandmothers are two beautiful blue bitches very similar in type and virtue. Though we only got one puppy that time, he is an amazing double dilute dog (Wyndlair Avalanche). (The litter was repeated and they’ve ultra sounded more puppies this time by the way.) We are anxious to breed to the double dilute because he should be a genetic goldmind with his beautiful parents and grandparents.
It’s sadly farcical that Ms. Duhon “bred the Grandparents,” in this case Wyndlair Avalanche, and got exactly what was promised with this breeding logic: a blind dog. Oh, but double dilute blindness doesn’t get passed on, they tell us. But neither do ethics suddenly appear where they were lacking before. If you’re willing to create a blind and deaf double dilute to win show ribbons, you’re also willing to breed deaf and blind dogs and sell them to puppy homes to support your ribbon chasing.
Ms. Duhon’s suspension is a piddling 6 months, and although her name appears at least 18 times on the CCA website, the details of her suspension don’t appear. This is rather ironic given that the stated reason for Ms. Duhon’s suspension is to assure the public that the CCA takes ethics seriously. Apparently informing the public of breeders found in violation of ethics codes is not part of that plan.
Ms. Jane Clymer, Secretary
Collie Club of America, Inc.
3385 Upland Road
Lost Springs, KS 66859-9654
June 22, 2011Dear Ms. Clymer,
The Hearing Committee met with Ms. Jennifer Duhon, with a court stenographer present to record proceedings, on June 11, 2011. We found it reasonable to conclude that Ms. Duhon did not know the puppy was blind at the time of sale. However, based on our findings, we find Ms. Duhon in violation of Code of Ethics #2, “All known defects shall be disclosed to the new owner in writing”. At the time of the sale, she did not disclose and explain the presence and nature of the colobomas and the possibility of retinal detachment.
We arrived at a majority decision for suspension of Ms. Duhon from membership for a period of six months.
We believe this action is sufficient in this case, and would like to acknowledge that Ms. Duhon was fair in her treatment of the buyers after she learned of the puppy’s impairment.
We concurred that our action was necessary in order to preserve the notion that we, as National Specialty Club members, hold ourselves to high ethical standards, and to prevent any public perception that violations of our Code of Ethics would be overlooked within our ranks.
Sincerely,
Joanne Huff
Patricia Jung
Nadine Beckwith-Olson
And wouldn’t you guess that the response to this paltry 6 month suspension was not to rethink the ethic of pawning off reject blind puppies on to unsuspecting homes, but to cry fowl that a non-CCA-breeder (read: unsuspecting puppy buyer) would have the ability to have their grievance redressed?
what are we becoming…I am devastated. These charges were brought by a non cca member, no evidence was sent to jenny before her hearing, the hearing was in violation of the time alloted in our constitution, she refunded the money to the owners and let them keep the puppy before these allegations…if I am in violation for posting this…so be it! I stand with Jennie!
…let he who has no sin cast the first stone…
I am appalled !!!Barbara Cleek
DD Oregon
Barbara@Lochlarencollies.com
visit our collies at http://www.lochlarencollies.com
Last updated June 2011
Wow, so it’s all ok to foist a defective dog created by a cruel breeding strategy on to unsophisticated puppy buyers as long as you give them their money back and let them keep the worthless puppy for free when they find out he’s blind? And a nominal 6 month punishment is what’s outrageous here? Will that even stall Ms. Duhon’s breeding plans one day? Talk about circling the wagons to defraud the puppy buying public!
The troubling thing is that the CCA is more concerned with the appearance of ethics than of actually having ethics. Sort of how these breeders are more interested in the appearance of health than actual health.
In another thread titled “Fads vs. the Standard” a breeder with some sense made an argument about how far the GSD has fallen and how it is now a structural mess. They then took on Collies saying:
In collies, breeders have the resources today to breed normal eyed dogs, but choose to instead ignore normal eyes in favor of that tiny beady eye. My tri male had the ideal collie eye, not too big, not too small. And he was normal eyed. Why is breeding an incorrect eye more important than breeding for normal eyes? Not saying to breed just for eye checks, but if faced with two studs that were equal in quality in every aspect, expect one had the small beady incorrect eye that is currently popular with a Grade 2 eye check, and the other had the somewhat larger but more correct eye with a normal eye check, which would you pick?
I’m just using the eye checks as one example. Many do ignore the lastest “fad” and breed to the written standard. Some will finally give in so they can finally get that win. If more of us stick our ground, maybe the next “fad” will be to actually breed a dog that fits the collie standard.
There is hope for the Collie breed yet. But the clarity of this logic was wasted on Ms. Duhon who responded with this gem (emphasis mine):
At the breeders seminar at CCA this year, John Kavanaugh (Kingsmark Collies) discussed his early on obession with normal eyes. He would only breed normal eyes and it got to the point where he couldn’t look his own dogs in the face. He went and found some beautiful mild CRC dogs to breed to. Nikki, there are far greater demons in collies besides mild CEA that breeders choose to fight first.
Our vet who does our eye checks has been doing them since the early 60’s and has seen everything. He hypothosizes that you get your worst eye checks from normal eyed carriers bred to mild crc dogs. He strongly feels that if we keep breeding our milds to milds, we’ll keep our mild eye checks. I’m comfortable with that at this point.
And as to your question…which dog am I good to choose…normal eyed vs. mild crc? I’m going to pick the best dog. All things being equal, probably going to pick the mild crc dog. Larger, lighter eyes are hard as heck to get rid of. If i can’t look a dog in the face, I really don’t want it around my house honestly.
And by the way…tiny, beady eyes can be Normal eyed.
But yes, I hate tiny, beady eyes too. Honestly, I think that fad is long gone in popularity. I saw a few of them at the national this year, but I think a more popular trend is eyes being in different time zones on the skull. Just really, really poor eye sets out there. However, there are a couple dominant stud dogs out there who seem to be adjusting eye sets. Saw some outcrosses to those dogs to improve set, shape, color & size and it works!
The good breeders create a mental image and stick with it. Go look at Ch. Marnus Evening Breeze in the 1960’s. She is unmistakably Marnus and looks like she could walk out of Marcia Keller’s kennel right now. John Buddie’s dogs are the same way. I strongly argue that all the great dogs look alike through the different decades. It’s the mediocre ones that go through strong fads.
Jennie
I don’t even know what to say. This mindset is so twisted, there must be clinical pathology going on here. We have a breeder who sold a blind puppy and lied about it stating that ALL things being equal they’d pick the DISEASED dog and that breeding to clears is a liability to be avoided! She’s also enshrining tiny, compromised eyes and condemning normal, healthy eyes. This is disgusting.
I’ve been called “sensationalist” over at the Pedigree Dogs are Fine blog, but I am starting to believe that the OLMcollie is going to be a reality. At some point the eyes are going to be so wideset and so microscopic as to be nonexistent all together. Throw in a perfectly shallow head with “no depth” and you’ve got an Olm salamander with more hair.
Oblique, miniscule eyes, nice ruff around the back of the neck, no depth of head, long snout... this is the perfect show collie!
It’s time for the CCA to follow the lead of other breed clubs and governments and band the breeding of Merle to Merle. If you don’t allow Merle x Merle and won’t register the offspring of such dogs, then you won’t have to face the breeders who have an ooops litter but sort of like the puppies becoming “well, it worked once, why not again” breeders. And you avoid the “well, I wouldn’t do it myself, but there’s no harm in using that dog, now that it’s here” breeders transitioning into the “they won ribbons doing it, so why can’t I do it too” breeders.
The way it is now too many people can justify creating these dogs because the CCA has no proviso on merle x merle.
The breed club has no position that forbids merle to merle breedings.
I have done them, taken responsibility for any double dilutes that have been produced. I would not do them lightly nor would I suggest a novice do them, I view breeding as a personal responsibility with artistic freedom. It becomes a slippery slope when others regulate your breeding program.
The double dilute I have now cannot see or hear, but she has no skin issues, no bloat, no seizures, hip dysplasia, in fact has never sneezed or missed a meal, and she is very happy. I plan on breeding her next year to a nice tri male and expect the puppies to all be as healthy as she is It is all a matter of perspective and where you are at in this game.
I do not consider her unhealthy
I know she is a carrier for CEA, know she is not for PRA.By the way the two other blind dogs I have had, PRA blind test bitches were normal eyed..the only normal eyed dogs I have had here. I have always found this kind of interesting in my strange old age sense of humor way.Bonnie Cray
Mystic Collies
So the CCA is willing to step in when someone sells a deaf puppy, but they aren’t willing to even SUGGEST that their breeders don’t create them in the first place by breeding merle to merle?
First of all, you are on a slippery slope using terms like “bad” when referring to breeders who may or may not choose to do this breeding.
I would also caution you including the word, ethics when referring to this type of breeding. There is nothing in our code of ethics which forbids this breeding I certainly do not consider myself unethical I have bred collies for many years, established a very healthy line and my collies are happy and well loved.
Doing a merle to merle breeding for me the first time was an accident, however I did repeat it because the puppies had incredible quality, superior health and were everything a collie should be, I kept the double dilute and she will live with me forever. The rest of the puppies have gone on to become champions and produce beautiful healthy collies who excel in all venues including work as service dogs. In fact, Sadie, now Sophie’s grandmother was a result of a merle to merle breeding. Sadie grew up on this list and has excelled at her work as a service dog in Israel.And for what it is worth, I do not consider Geisha a bad result, she is a beautiful loving collie who raises all our puppies and has never known a bad day.
I repeated to produce the superior qualities I saw in the merle to merle cross.
Once again, and at least so far, breeding is a freedom, an mixture of art and science, and I do not recommend that novice do this, but I have not regretted it, not do I consider myself a novice or bad. A double dilute is not ill nor when bred to a tri pass on any genetic defects. connected to the merling gene.
Bonnie Cary
Mystic Collies, www.mysticcollies2.com
Member, Collie Club of America
President, Saint Louis Collie Club
Education Chair, Historian, SLCC
See, this is how it happens. Maybe it’s an oops litter the first time, maybe the dog is the only puppy born from a litter you hoped would be everything. Then you run with it, you do everything you can to salvage the effort, and you grow cold and detached to the reality of what this really means. If you happen to be successful or become successful, you also entice others to follow your lead. Others that might not be smart enough or willing enough to cull the disaster puppies at birth so they don’t leak out into the rescue system. Breeders who will think they have to breed this way to achieve the same success.
Breeding might be an art, but do you want to support the art of people who can’t even LOOK into the face of a normal healthy dog without feeling disgust? These breeders aren’t artists, they are sadists.
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
Wow! I’m just shaking my head….it really is so sad. And now breeders call themselves artists too??
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I actually agree that breeding beautiful/sound animals can be an art form. But you can’t forget that the animals are -living beings-. Some people get so obsessed with abstract concept of ‘artistic expression’ that the whole act of breeding becomes divorced from biological reality and the individual dogs just become cogs in the ‘greater canvas’ of the breeder perceived self-genius.
These blind deaf dogs truly do reflect the ‘artistic expression’ of their breeders. But it’s a sad picture, not a beautiful one.
I guess it comes down to semantics….I just don’t see it as art….shame on these breeders.
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I think they invoke the “art” because art doesn’t have standards, and obviously these people don’t want to be limited to standards either. People piss in jars and call it art, so who cares if they have to break a few (dogs) to make their omelet? It’s ART! You can’t judge me!
Again, why I say this needs to be handled with a code of ethics from the breed club. These breeders obviously can’t come to the humane decision on their own and they are clearly willing to go well beyond what the public would consider ethical to win ribbons.
Chris I do wish to point out something that indeed was ‘landmark’ change in application of Robert Rules proceedings correctly applied. The ethics of selling a puppy with colobomas without explaining the possible consequences to the buyer. First the member WAS notified of Charges. Second the member had the right to defend themselves. Third a non bias of right and wrong was made regarding IMO fair business practices. Mrs. Clymer is the best secretary the CCA has ever had. She follows the procedues line out in specific edition of Robert Rules.
The next step is this decision would be passed to the AKC. They likewise review the issues at hand. The last step is for thier process could suspend for a period of time AKC privileges or Revoke them for a number of years or forever. This is the procedure.
Neither organization has the legal rights to lock her up and throw the key away. Kathy
I agree, there’s a lot of aesthetics and subjectivity here, which are the trade marks of art. But I agree that from the outside it appears that these breeders forget that these are living animals and not just topiary that they can prune on a whim and which does not feel pain.
Ah yes. People complaining that puppies and things don’t turn out PERFECT. You try your best and go on with life. Would you keep all women over the age of 35 from getting pregnant because the chance of having a downs syndrome child greatly increases then??
Maybe we should worry about all the kids that go to bed hungry in this country and the thousands that die every day throughout the world because they don’t have any food.
Wow Bertha, pulling out the big guns there. Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain, there’s a starving child in China that needs our attention.
The comparison to 35 year old women is a false analogy. There’s really no valuable comparison between a woman who has agency over her own reproductive rights and can make informed decisions for herself and dog breeding where the dog has no say in the matter. There’s also no logical similarity between a chromosomal disorder like Down Syndrome and an autosomal disease like we see with merle.
Perhaps we should ask the direct comparison. If two parents each have Waardenberg Syndrome, would we consider it irresponsible if they not only failed to test their embryos for it, but if they kept having children until they produced a homozygous Waardenberg child so that all of their grandchildren would also have Waardenberg.
And how would you feel if the President gave these people an award for service to mankind for doing so. And what if the people who did this looked you in the face and said that you were a disgusting beast because your eyes were normal and healthy and that they couldn’t stand to look at you because you were so hideous.
Yeah, sign me up for that scenario.
Careful what you say here about having reproductive rights as part of disproving the analogy. Treading on a whole other thing here now.
Women still fight to keep our options because men don’t have ovaries; just more positions of political power.
And I’m no feminazi as they say, but I refer to George Carlin. “You don’t have rights. You have temporary priveliges. Just look at what happened to the Japanese-American citizens in 1942. What happened to THEIR ‘rights?!”
I love that quote from George Carlin.
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These breeders didn’t make a good decision and get a shitty outcome. They made a shitty decision and got a shitty outcome. Several times.
I am guessing you’re part of an arranged marriage? Your parents must have real good eyes for things.
Your comparison can only be true if dogs have a say in who they will mate with. You will be surprised how many will reject certain individuals if they have the choice to run with any dog they want.
Sorry, but unless you are keeping a dozen of dogs on your property all with from different bloodlines from around the world, and you have no say in who get to mess with who, it’s fallacious to compare with humans.
Dave recently posted..Dog Humps Cattle
Yeah, darn those stupid ‘pet people’ expecting to get a puppy with working eyes! Such whiners!
In one of my last litters I had a puppy that didn’t turn out perfect. He had a persistence right aortic arch, which in my breeds (this pup wasn’t a purebred) isn’t heritable. He became very ill with a respiratory infection at four weeks old, and after diagnostics confirmed his disease, I had him euthanized.
The difference, you see, is that I didn’t do a breeding where each puppy has a 25% chance of being defective in a way that affects it’s quality of life. My defective puppy was truly an accident of development.
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CCA banning Merle/Merle won’t stop it. What needs to happen is AKC refusing to allow these dogs to be in the conformation ring. If the progeny of Merle/Merle breedings were automatically irrevocable “limited” registration, it would probably ssignificantly reduce the Merle/Merle breedings –becasue those doing it wouldn’t get any reward for doing it. People are NOT required to be members of a breed club to participate in any of the AKC events, nor for registration, so CCA doesn’t have any means to ban registration. They could kick members out, but since these are the “power players” in CCA, that is unlikely to happen. Banning the dogs from further use in breeding and from the conformation ring would provide incentive not to do M/M breedings.
By the way, do any of the working BC registries have a M/M policy? I do recall someone who had good herding dogs who did breed M/M because they actually thought that the two parents had good enough qualities to take the risk of double merle offspring.
Peggy Richter.
I don’t believe that either the US or Canadian working registries have any breeding rules at all regarding color or any other health issue. There is, from what I gather, a strong aversion to color though. Even red dogs are somewhat controversial. This in no way means that there aren’t color focused breeders who use these registries and who breed merle to merle.
Christopher recently posted..Shoot it in the face!
I don’t know about the BC registries but I can tell you that ASCA does not and will not for the foreseeable future. Probably nearly every ASCA aussie in the country, whether bred for working or show, goes back to one or more merle-to-merle breedings. Use of MM dogs in breeding programs seems to be fairly rare, although my own dog has one in her background several generations back. That MM was mismarked (white where it shouldn’t be per the standard) but mostly colored from the pictures I’ve seen, lived to be over 15 years old, and successfully worked livestock.
You won’t get much historical griping from me. I’m perfectly willing to forgive breeding practices of the past, as one must remember that we know more now, have more science at our fingertips and certainly better communication.
I’ve mentioned the double merle shelties that were popular sires, but who is to say what was known and what decisions were made decades ago? To me this is not an issue that is obviously moral or immoral, it’s only thorough learning the true risk that one can make a decision.
The egregious aspect of this Collie example is that they are both so brazen in breeding this dog, repeating the breeding, and then promoting and mating this dog with abandon, with so many warning signs that say no, don’t.
Plus, they lie about his disabilities. They know what they are doing is shallow and stupid and unlikely to garner public support. That’s rather shameful, in my view.
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In the quarter horse world, horses with HyPP are not permitted to be registered at all. Any foals born of a lineage where HyPP has been present in the pedigree are required to be tested unless both parents are N/N, meaning there is no possibility of repeating that defect. AKC should do the same in forbidding ANY registry of these dogs. And it should probably go beyond merle to merle breeding to include anything that produces some of these horrible anomalies in any breed.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cca_officers/message/1591
Viewing that group’s messages is restricted to members only.
Yeah, I just want to keep a record of who stops by to visit. I’m sure some very interesting things are being said.
Christopher recently posted..Double Merle Breeders: In Their Own Words 1
How are you getting into the officers group when it is restricted? Did you hack into it?
Haha, no one is hacking the list. Someone linked to this post from that list and the incoming link reveals the source. Anyone on the list care to share the topic of conversation?
How come it’s not classified as “Trackback”?
Dave recently posted..The Specialist
Because I entered it manually. I don’t think that the site recognizes trackbacks on its own, it has to be sent a trackback from the linking site. Since yahoo groups and forums don’t generate trackbacks, I don’t believe that it will show up organically.
Chris is not getting in to the Close List, he is no hacker.
Chris, thank you for these wonderful posts about unethical merle breedings. We had a few discussions on this topic in my breed (Pomeranian) during a recent standard revision process. Our standard states “all colors/patterns allowed and to be judged on an equal basis”. Now we have merle Pomeranians, who are successful in the ring, and that is justification enough for many of the competitive-type breeders. Thankfully, our club did add a statement to the code of ethics which prohibits merle-to-merle breedings as an ethics violation.
Peggy mentioned disallowing merle homozygotes in the ring. I can tell you that is impossible. You cannot always tell if a merle is a homozygote by appearance. There is the addition of piebald factors which can produce very white heterozygotes. These can be indistinguishable from homozygous merles. The way that Shetland Sheepdogs and Aussies deal with this issue is to disallow any dog with excessive white trim.
I believe that AKC needs to take the bull by the horns and disallow registration of ANY dogs produced from merle-to-merle breedings. If an accidental breeding occurs, the dogs can be sold as unregistered pets. I further believe that AKC must be the ones to ban the practice of using homozygotes as breeding stock, and refuse to register any of their progeny. They need to solicit this information at time of registration, and inform breeders of merles about the requirement to follow ethical merle breeding practices. Those found to be in violation should lose their AKC privileges. That would be my ideal solution to the situation, as AKC is still the most prestigioius registering body. Funny how few would keep and breed an AKC-disallowed monorchid or a dog with a bad bite, but hey, why not merle to merle.
It is disgusting to hear these people claim that their deaf and blind dogs are “perfectly healthy”. How can anyone intentionally inflict such crippling disorders and live with himself?
I agree that it’s ultimately a registration issue. The AKC is ultimately the one that knows that both parents are merle. Hell, it could be a breed club issue as well, since pedigrees are not secret and enforcement could be after the fact.
I also think that even a simple “We advise strongly against Merle x Merle breedings” would be enough to stop much of this from happening. People just need to be told where the line is.
If the AKC stopped registering the offspring of merle to merle breedings, they wouldn’t have to ban the breeding of homozygous merles–because none of them would be AKC registered anyway. I think that would be a beautiful solution! However, the AKC would lose money by turning away those dogs and I don’t think they would ever do it.
Because you can get cryptic merles in virtually any breed with merle, I think you need an “intent” requirement before banning merle to merle progeny by registry or by law.
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The AKC isn’t concerned enough with these issues to forbid registration. They’re too money hungry, which, in my opinion, costs them the right to claim that they have any prestige at all. I can appreciate any nicely bred dog and have had purebred and registered dogs, but at this point, I don’t care if I never have another registered dog.
The AKC is going bankrupt.
So they are even more money hungry than they normally would be.
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http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CCADD/message/17230
District Directors of the Collie Club of America
I’ve been called “sensationalist” over at the Pedigree Dogs are Fine blog, but I am starting to believe that the OLMcollie is going to be a reality.
That… has got to be a parody.
Doesn’t it?
Someone please tell me that’s a parody.
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Is there really a “pedigree dogs are fine” blog??
Oh, NVM, I figured it out. LOL!
The point I would like to make is that collies like Avalanche not only produce poor eye checks but come out of bloodlines for decades with CEA.
I’m currently checking, but I can not locate one Best in Breed Collie of the CCA Nationals that did not have CEA. This is what is called “Melting Collie Expression” rather than my perferred term …
“Look of Eagles” -normal eye. Kathy
These breeders didn’t make a good decision and get a shitty outcome. And now breeders call themselves artists too?? I further believe that AKC must be the ones to ban the practice of using homozygotes as breeding stock, and refuse to register any of their progeny.
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I applaud this approach. While I think the dog who won the breed at Westminster is a stunning dog in many ways, as a consumer, I expect any dog I pay a lot of money for to be bred for minimal health issues to the greatest extent possible. None is perfect, but no one should have to pay exhorbitant prices for a carelessly bred puppy.
CEA is a sad fact of the collie breed. There are breeders out there who have worked and continue to work to not only produce beautiful collies that exemplify the standard but also have normal eyes. There are also breeders out there who work to improve the breed but choose not to tackle the issue of CEA in their bloodlines. Both types can be good and both types can be bad. It is all about the person behind the breeding. CEA does not render a puupy blind, the extent to which a dog is affected does. Be careful what you you wish for when you say to ban all homozyogous breedings. Pure for sable is homozygous, should we ban them from breeding stock too?
“Pure for sable is homozygous, should we ban them from breeding stock too?”
Are you really so ignorant you don’t comprehend why the color gene for sable is not at all comparible to merle?
No I am not ignorant. And as a breeder I do recognize the difference between the two, but the comment was: “further believe that AKC must be the ones to ban the practice of using homozygotes as breeding stock, and refuse to register any of their progeny.”. Pure for sable is homozygous. Just pointing out a discrepancy.
Actually, you don’t normally get to say “I’m not ignorant.”
Because every time you open your mouth on this blog, you’re ignorance is showing in droves.
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There are whole breeds in which sables comprise the entire breed.
Not so with merle. Every all-merle breed has been a failure. The harlequin pinscher went extinct almost as soon as it was developed. There are people who breed merle minpins– it’s not the same thing. Catahoulas come in other colors besides merle for a reason.
The reason why is that merle to merle breedings are guaranteed to produce defect.
And yes, I’m going to question your breeding ethics. Anyone who would intentionally breed two dogs with knowledge that these defects are statistically that common from that breeding should be questioned the hell out of.
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Since you and others choose to question my breeding ethics, please tell me what standard I have violated. Tell me when/where I produced a litter or a dog or anything that you specifically object too. And file a greivance with the AKC or the CCA. I choose to defend the Avalance breeding because I understand the reasoning behind it. Your assumption along with others that I am an ignorant breeder who chooses to not acknowledge how terrible this breeding is, is completely false. I have never done a MM mating and I never intend too. I produce only 1 maybe two litters a year. Many of my dogs excel in several events. I try to be polite and offer an alternative to what everyone is saying, but do not ever question me or my breeding practices when you know absolutely nothing about them. You have no idea what dogs I have produced or what they have done. Now if you have a verifiable complaint against my ethics as a breeder, please by all means tell me, but I promise you have none. You want to come at me then take your chances and roll the dice, because I have come across worse than you.
The AKC and CCA may not regulate what you do.
Just because there are no regulations doesn’t mean that it’s okay to do something.
I hope your parents taught you better than that.
If you intentionally breed two dogs that have a 25 percent chance of producing a dog that is blind, deaf, or both, then you are definitely violating what normal, reasonable people would consider ethical behavior.
You evidently are smoking too much dope of some sort not to realize this.
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You understand the reasoning behind Avalances’s breeding??? How can you say you understand someone taking such a risk & not appear to be ignorant unless you just have no ethics concerning your choosen breeds health that is. If you know the full facts on what the risks are on doing a breeding such as the breeding that produced Avalance & yet your understanding of why they did this breeding then it’s your ethics that may be amiss in my honest opinion.
Tell me why they could have not just waited until they did find a suitable none merle mate for this breeding?
My gold TM was 8 years old before he had a litter as it toke 8 years to find the right bitch & even though the litter produced some very high quality offspring in the eyes of many of my peers it was not repeated. Why becauses 2 pups out of 7 had mild entropion & that was enough for me to not breed him again(I knew his bloodlines where the main contributer to the eye problem). Even though he was of a very wanted colour & 1 of the largest & better types available to me it was not worth it in my eyes to take the risk of any more TM’s being breed with the gene to throw pups with entropion.
Yet you can defend a breeders right to do a mating they knew the outcome would likely have eye issues (& not fixable by a few stiches or in the worse caese 1 minor surgery as entropion is) that would be life long. No sorry thats just not good enough, dogs deserve to be able to be fully sighted
I know nothing about nothing about your breeding practices, sweetheart, but your posts tell me everything I need to know about your ethics as a human being.
An ethical, responsible breeder DOES NOT PRODUCE DEFECTIVE PUPPIES ON PURPOSE. Therefore, an ethical, responsible breeder does not do breedings where each pup has a ONE in FOUR chance of being defective.
This is not difficult to understand. The concept of ‘responsible’ breeders has been beaten into the ground over the last few years due to the amount of anti-breeding legislation that’s been proposed here in the US.
Avanlanche’s breeders are, by definition, irresponsible. Breeders like them will drag us all down, because the general public, being normal and not steeped in a sub-culture of questionable sanity, will not support that kind of breeding as ‘responsible.’
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Are you for real? Sable is in no way comparable to merle!
A clear example of ignorance being bliss, Sam.
I should not be surprised but wow sometimes I’m just left gob smacked, LOL.
I sure wish I so ignorant to my breeds issues I may have manage a few more litters, no I take that back thank god I do know!!
@ Brie
If that is what you believe and you choose to look the other way on a deliberate merle to merle breeding, then you are just a guilty as the Stelters are. I liked them too…until I found out what their real agenda is.
just for the record, there actually are NORMAL double dilute collies. Go to this website. This woman who is also a VETERINARIAN has bred merle to merle for years and she has never had a blind and deaf dilute. They have always been normal. Perhaps blind dilutes is linked to CEA
http://www.rainshadecollies.com/
Beth we all know about Rainshade Collies. Many read her first book and breed by it? So what is your point.
Where is the scientific documention to this theory? There are enormous scientific studies and findings to challenge your claims? Where is the DNA results?
“This woman who is also a VETERINARIAN has bred merle to merle for years and she has never had a blind and deaf dilute.”
Went to the site. Where does it say she’s never produced a blind and deaf dilute?
Kary
Beth:
Blind collies were first discovered in a litter from an imported pregnant female in 1933. Two puppies in a litter of 14 were blind. These collie puppies were kept in cold storage at Cornell from my studies. It is documented in 1942 or 43 the blindness was caused by Micropthalmia. Microphthalmia blind is well documented and admitted merle to merle breeders today not rcd 2 or coloboma blind from detached retinas.
Scientific studies have advanced with new discoveries and finding with combine studies in breeds that carry the merling gene. The scientific evidence in these breeds are irrefutable.
Yes, she is a veterinarian but her practice concentrates on reproduction, as far as I know. We see photos of successes, because merle to merle breeding is well documented in our Collies to produce 1/4 double merles or double dilutes. I am likewise, not aware that her education or a member of the AVOC? Veterinary ophthalmologist.
I have never seen Vanderlip, DVM makes the claim she has never produced a blind or deaf Collie?
http://www.eyecareforanimals.com/animal-eye-conditions/canine/296-merle-gene.html
http://www.rainshadecollies.com/DogStories/charlotte.html
Beth I apologize if you did look my last post up and found Dr. Sharon Vanderlip’s name on the list and are posting a defense of misconceptions.
As I only wished to help those searching for answers not defending old theory not based on new findings. Quite likely Dr. Sharon Vanderlip could have been instrumental and taking part with real scientific evidence that I have missed finding or yet to be written. Therefore, as we are all here to learn enlighten us please.
http://www.rainshadecollies.com/DogStories/oreilly.html
I am curious LaBella quite familiar with Dr. Vanderlip’s accomplishments as well as others to create a blue merle that pass all DNA testing available with all flags flying as non carriers. Done it myself as well as others.
http://www.rainshadecollies.com/DogStories/breezy.html
You see Beth all of us who love the healthy, seeing collie want to see what is between the covers from this second book. We want this breeding program revealed as viewing those collies on the website.
You see as the knowledge that this Blog site imparts not only in guidepost of Academic Fraud, it discloses Brackett Theory not being practice in breeding as first outline by its original creator..using different sires. All this could be just a “Tempest in a Teapot” so to speak.
Beth suppose you with this link to Breezy feel this supports the breeding of double merles because it appears on Dr. Vanderlip’s Web site? Breezy has dark eyes and appears it can see, and looks healthy. This photo does not have any description nor reveal the entire litter which either of these links disclose of any littermates produced in the breeding? It likewise, does not disclose entire litters health in what was produced by its offspring or the coat color protocol to achieve these phenotypes. The issue of double merle breeding or double dilute breeding as Dr. Vanderlip is surely aware of the biological documented scientific facts today consist updating her first book on merle to merle breeding which remains a work in progress due to tidal wave of scientific discovery?
http://www.rainshadecollies.com/puppies.html
You see Beth just as “Coat Color Genetics in Dogs” researcher of more color studies did not call “Little an Academic Fraud just that some of his theories could not be documented by scientific evidence and findings.
You all need to read these Big minds. It will bring you to another whole new understanding of human group thinking.
I sinercly doubt every single pup has been 100% unaffected. I would like to see some real evidence of this being so….
Sam, I have heard in the past that Dr. Vanderlip believes that the normal eye (not affected with CEA) might decrease the prevalence of blindness in double merle collies. I have never heard her say, and I saw nothing on her site suggesting, that she has never produced a blind or deaf double merle. The vast majority of show collies are not normal eyed. Also, double merles in hreeds where CEA is not an issue (e.g. Danes) are quite often blind. A study posted to the collie Yahoo list just yesterday found that 86% of collie, aussie and sheltie double merles are deaf.
Yes because if you read the study and findings on CEA and PRA markers in any breed it is as far as my personal studies these conditions are due to deletions. I would be happy to find these links for you own interpretion if you do not know how. Basically key words will lead you to educational material.
Genetic Causes of
Likewise Due to Exonic Insertion at the PTPLA gene…
Reading this makes me so sick and angry! I really have become to hate dog breeders in the years that I have been involved with them.
I mean in most breeds there are these sort of brainless breeders who think they are great and better than anyone else and most importantly; right in what they are doing… In some breeds the problemas are not that big and in some breeds they are huge, but they are kept in the closed and supposedly non-existend.
In my country merleXmerle is forbidden, so no real breeders do them. And if there are accidents they are either terminated or then registered to the “no-breeding register” wich we also have for litters that are accidental but still want to be registered to get into competitions and so on.
But there are still puppy mills and “hobby breeders” that don’t think about the healt and produce what ever they like.
But even when my country has many reguirements for health results and other things when it comes to breeding, there is still the same problem of the breed associations despite having these rules they are not really enforcing them. It seems to me like they really don’t care about the dogs health as long as their operation is not impacted.
As much as I would hope for this breeding madness to end and have people work towards the health and happiness of the dogs I just don’t see it happening. There are too many idiots in the dog field… The dogs will just get sicker and sicker and look less like dogs, I think your lizard was very accurate vision of the future.
Anything that has humans involved will have it’s fair share of idiots; the dog world is not any sort of exception to this basic fact.
That is true.
But when I was younger I used to think that people involved with dogs would be better, as dogs themselfs are suck loving creatures that would not want anything but good to others. But the sad fact is that humans don’t care who they hurt or kill as long as they are happy themselfs. As the actions of dog breeders are umbelievably selfish and inflict suffering and death to these lovely creatures that want nothing but to live and love.
I generally think that humans are idiots and very rarely do they prove otherwise. And the ones that do use their brains or act in a manner that you would expect from a animal that actually can think about it’s actions still are not enought to save the whole race. I believe humans will bring destruction upon themselfs too, but for now they are content in just killing everything else that lives.
I have owned Collies my entire life. I am 59. I had a dear friend and mentor years ago that started us with our first show quality puppy. My friend passed away and we have owned other Collies since. Our last Collie was purchased from a “reputable” breeder. Just what IS a “reputable” breeder?
Our boy developed seizures early on and later became blind. I have wanted to buy another puppy for quite sometime. I have visited breeders, talked with breeders, e mailed breeders. The funny thing is NONE of them have ANY problems they are trying to improve on in their lines; NONE of them have ANY eye problems; NONE of them have been forthcoming and honest. How do I know this? Because there is no perfect Collie.
Why don’t you breeders be honest with potential buyers? We just want honesty. What are you afraid of? And your websites state it’s all in the name of your love for the breed. Many of your sites state the buyer must fill out your application; you need to know all there is to know about the buyer; well I propose the breeder should have to complete a full disclosure FOR the prospective buyer.
Yes the CCA has a responsibility but the responsibility starts with you, the breeder. You have a responsibility to the 4 year old tri male name Blacky whose role in life is to watch over 6 and 9 year olds Johnny and Suzy; but due to deafness, seizures, blindness, can no longer do what he longs to do. You get the picture. So the next time a prospective buyer contacts you, try opening up with them and share some of those problems you have had or are working toward improving on. Let the buyer be able to make an informed decision.
What is really unforgiveable is that DNA markers now available to Collie Breeders could have prevented Blacky’s blindness and deafness. Responsible collie breeders DNA.
Dear Ernest maybe this will help you find another Collie by choice of breeder that does not support merle to merle breeding because I see a connection continuing studies reveal in my opinion as far as I have studied: That I can not deny of your blind and seizure Collie. This might be heavy but you might seek help in understanding the need to choice if you like white merles …Not only a DNA check by parentage but an eye examination. There have been reported DNA but thus far no documentation that DNA test will sometimes state non carrier but eye exam will reveal colobomas? Other questionable cases are verbally reported …such as DNA clear Parentage but due in my opinion reviewing pedigrees to these continued practices…offspring have revealed serious lack of development through eye examination which is troubling?
A demyelinating disease is any disease of the nervous system in which the myelin shelth of neurons is damaged.
Some demyelinating diseases are caused by genetics, and others by infectious agents, and others by autoimmune reactions, and others that are currently under studies. .”This degeneration consists of both demyelination (stripping away the insulation of these fibers) and axonal loss (loss of the actual fibers), and interferes with the communication between the brain and limbs. Recent research has identified a mutation in a gene that confers a greatly increased risk of developing the disease. ”
“Myelin, the white, fatty, lipid material that acts as an insulator coat (also called a sheath) for some nerve fibers, can be lost through a process called demyelination, a condition that causes the myelin to deteriorate, resulting in electrical signals in the nerves being lost, and impairing function. Or, there may be axonal (part of the nerve cell or neuron) degeneration with secondary demyelination. Axonal degeneration occurs when the actual nerve fibers deteriorate within the myelin sheath. http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_multi_peripheral_neuropathies