A double merle Sheltie
A few hits came into the blog just now from a Sheltie Forum and I was curious what the folks were saying. I expected to find the usual maverick novice using one of my posts to question the status quo in their breed and getting flamed by the power brokers. I was pleasantly surprised to find a perfect distillation of the Double Merle issue from someone who obviously has an excellent grasp of breed politics.
The post was too spot-on not to share.
Excellent comment on Double Merle Shelties
Nov 18, 2011, 02:35 PM
tofu pup
ModeratorQuote:
Originally Posted by corbinam
I’ve always wondered what breeders’ stances are regarding this practice [breeding double merles].I think it’s [breeding double merles] unnecessary and wish it would end. There’s a fallacy (which you can see in the first post in this thread) that if a breeder is “experienced enough” or “educated enough” they will somehow (though sheer force of will?) avoid producing dogs with health issues in their merle-merle litters. I suppose that an “experienced enough” breeder would be more apt to euthanize defective puppies once they were found to be blind or deaf – but really, that doesn’t sound like a fun way to go about breeding dogs.
There is a double-standard in which merle-merle breedings are despicable when done by BYBs, but acceptable when done by well-respected breeders. But the outcome is the same: the risk of blind, deaf puppies. I’m afraid it makes breeders as a group look bad. When the “outside world” finds out that these dogs are being produced (and their owners are being rewarded with stud fees), the reaction is predictably negative.
Is there any amount of “education” that will show the general public that the production and promotion of double merle stud dogs is ethically acceptable? I suspect not – and that should tell us that, perhaps, this is not something that we ought to support.
I love how this comment touches on an issue that is pervasive in dog breeding: that through magical “experience” and sheer force of will, certain breeders–who just so happen to be the ones with a modicum of power and clout–can breed however they want and be free from the known effects of their decisions. When one of them does have a disaster that they fail to cover up, their underling mind guards will declare it a tragedy that could have happened to anyone and not the direct cause of dangerous breeding practices. To criticize that it ever happened is to attack those poor dead or disfigured puppies themselves!
The other issue goes to the heart of my goals with this blog: to inform the “outside world” of the modus operandi of the old school dog breeders so that the force of public opinion can begin to erode their steadfast denial of science and ethics. I blow the whistle and point fingers because someone has to and very few do. If you were in a position to stop an abuse, would you?
So here’s a hat tip to Tofu Pup who stuck her neck out in public to take a well reasoned stand against double merle breeding in her Shetland Sheepdog breed. We need more people like her. Perhaps, through our own sheer force of will and steadfast campaigning against abuse through breeding we can end the systematic creation of these animals in breeding programs.
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I’m assuming you’ve seen this “defense” of merle-merle breeding? http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/general/merle-to-merle-breedings/
The cognitive dissonance is extraordinary. She talks as though “soundness” is an impossibly rare trait, as though all collies, shelties and CWCs who don’t conform to the platonian ideal of hock let down and shoulder layback spend their days hobbling around in pain. Yes, severe structural flaws can exacerbate some health issues in some dogs* – but surely she can’t actually believe that the majority of collies, shelties and CWCs are crippled by their “average” conformation? And, further, that it becomes a kindness to breed MxM litters when the sire and dam are “spectacular”, since eyeless-ness and deafness are mere trivialities compared to… being born with the structure of a slightly more average dog, rather than that of a Multi BIS GR CH with TRAD movement???!
She’s literally suggesting that there are so few “sound” collies and shelties that breeders can’t produce litters capable of pain-free movement WITHOUT sometimes being *forced* to mate two merles together. And people take her seriously?!
I’d actually have a little more respect for these people if they just admitted that they are greedy & less concerned with the health and welfare of the dogs that they breed than they are with accruing ribbons. Not much more respect, mind – but a little.
*(Although, it’s interesting that when you examine the peer-reviewed literature, veterinarians and physiotherapists barely mention angulation/conformation when discussing things like degenerative joint disease in dogs (as opposed to horses, whose structure, function & body mass are quite different and minor flaws in angulation can have major health implications)).
Joanna was featured in my first Inbred Mistakes post.
This is simply folks like playing Russian Roulette with all chambers loaded. Sadly they deny all the bullets being used to destroy the collie gene pool in my personal studies. Merle is a SINE insertion…
White factor(pseudo Irish) is a SINE/MITF.
Now let us take her complaint about cripples in collies and apply:”A SINE exonic insertion in the PTPLA gene leads to multiple splicing defects -with autosomal recessive centronuclear mypathy in dogs. What else do we know about hip dyplasia mode of inheritance being polygenetic. So who likely is creating all those cripples? Kathy
This is simply folks like playing Russian Roulette with all chambers loaded. Sadly they deny all the bullets being used to destroy the collie gene pool in my personal studies. Merle is a SINE insertion…
White factor(pseudo Irish) is a SINE/MITF.
Now let us take her complaint about cripples in collies and apply:”A SINE exonic insertion in the PTPLA gene leads to multiple splicing defects -with autosomal recessive centronuclear mypathy in dogs. What else do we know about hip dyplasia mode of inheritance being polygenetic. So who likely is creating all those cripples? Kathy
“but surely she can’t actually believe that the majority of collies, shelties and CWCs are crippled by their “average” conformation?”
Shelties? No.
Corgis? Don’t know enough to know, but I’d suspect not.
Collies? Yeah.
I don’t agree with Joanna’s position, but the tradeoff between one puppy put down at birth and an unsound litter is real.
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I agree. I meant to make a point about trade offs, and I can understand how a breeder could look at the trade off of one dead puppy vs a litter of wobbly ones, and pick the former. I don’t think I would make the same choice, but I can conceive of a situation where I would not ban it if I were Queen of the Universe.
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“I can understand how a breeder could look at the trade off of one dead puppy vs a litter of wobbly ones”
Excuse me for being blunt, but I think you entirely missed my point, which is that this is a garbage argument. Perhaps I was unclear. If a dog is going to produce a structurally unsound litter UNLESS it is bred to ONLY ONE SPECIFIC MATE (regardless of whether this produces dead puppies, green puppies, or puppies with two heads), this dog does not need to breed. Putting its genetics into your breeding program would be unwise, because they’ll come back to bite you in the ass when it comes time to find mates for this dog’s offspring.
The very idea of a breeder looking at a tradeoff between dead puppies and an entire litter of unsound puppies is nonsense. That argument is simply doublespeak, excusing a breeding with a large (25%) chance of producing defective puppies. It is not any different than the example I used of breeding two carriers of juvenile cataracts, which would be considered highly unethical, with or without doublespeak.
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Jess, it is not a tradeoff between dead puppies and unsound puppies. It is a tradeoff between blind, deaf, and/or dead puppies in a litter with multiple group/BIS winners, and a litter of sound, happy, alive puppies with perfect sight and hearing who are maybe slightly less successful show dogs. They are willing to create the defects if there is any chance it will make them more successful in the show ring. It is disgusting and wrong is what it is. There is no excuse for it except ridiculous rationalizations that seem nonsensical to anyone outside of the show world. Or at least to me. LOL
The ironic thing is they are generally wrong and could have easily found an equally promising non-merle stud for their bitch.
Joanna’s post comes across as blind idol worship of the world of conformation breeding. Many of her posts do, in fact.
Well, you know that I am a ‘conformation’ breeder in the sense that I breed for functional, moderate conformation 🙂 The Saluki bitch that went to my co-breeder from my last litter is pretty much just looking for majors now.
(Joanna’s analogy, btw, if you want to call it that, is not rooted in any understanding of how genetics work in breeding animals. No breeder worth their salt is going to be considering only THAT litter when they are planning, it’s short-sighted. Every breeder has eliminated animals from their program because they had qualities that they don’t want to introduce into their lines.)
The show ring has its own issues, mainly in regards to the human brain. We’re wired to be attracted to things that are different (I mean drawn to, not necessarily attracted in the sense of liking.) When confronted with a row of similar objects, we are drawn to the one that stands out in some way. This is automatic and unconscious, and it takes an effort of will to put this reflex aside. Show animals which are more extreme than the norm are actually a perfectly predictable result of how the human brain works.
Jess recently posted..Goodbye, Zora
Right. I think the more “normal” way to look at the situation would be to not even consider merle stud dogs when looking for a mate for your merle bitch. Because the two would not be a good fit. For the obvious reason! I have a merle collie and I would never consider breeding her to a merle. It simply would not cross my mind. For any reason. Ever.
This is really the place I’ve come to on merle. It’s slightly dangerous in the single copy, and this should be considered; i.e. if you already have hearing and vision issues in your lines or other white genes like piebald, you’d be foolish to complicate them by adding merle to the mix. This is why Collies are a mess with their eyes, because the genes and the fads are compounding the problems.
It’s very dangerous in the double dose and I do not think there is any easy justification for breeding merle to merle. There is a secondary disadvantage here, mainly that if you want to breed merle you are limiting your breeding choices to other non-merle animals. In Border Collies, this would not be a big issue, there are plenty of non-merle dogs to breed to. But what about the breeds where a certain gene pool tried in the past to create an all-merle breed or where merles are very common, i.e. shelties and aussies. This is a big sacrifice you’re making for the sake of the color, but it should never be one that is insurmountable. Too few dogs are bred as it is, if breeders aren’t able to find a responsible pair to their dog, then they should not be breeding.
From what I can see, people making these decisions are anything but methodical and considered. They make breeding decisions based upon political concerns and ignorance. That dog is winning, I must have it. That breeder is a grand poohbah, I must use their stud. I want what they have. I will play the game. This reminds me of the popular click in middle school; before most kids have the ability to truly distinguish themselves existentially through the arts, athletics or academics, which usually happens in high school, in middle school the clicks are almost always self-reinforced based upon very superficial qualities. The girls most boys had crushes on were nothing special and most certainly popular for being popular, desired because others desired them. This is the poison of “reputation” where what is thought to be true is only that way because others think it to be so.
How many of our great institutions are like this? Religion comes to mind. We think things only because others have thought of them before us and many join on simply because many already have. Little fiefdoms of group think reinforce themselves and on one ever stops to say “the emperor has no clothes.”
It rather goes back to sm’s original comment:
“She’s literally suggesting that there are so few “sound” collies and shelties that breeders can’t produce litters capable of pain-free movement WITHOUT sometimes being *forced* to mate two merles together. And people take her seriously?!”
This decision, merle x merle breeding, is dependent on culture. A certain subset of ‘show’ culture says this kind of breeding is okay, no matter how many contortions need to be made to come to that conclusion. Other subsets and other cultures say no.
The problem that we are seeing in dog breeding right now is that the show culture is coming under scrutiny from outside; practices that are either condoned or excused (because the breeder is successful, or ‘reputable’) within the culture are being examined and found inexcusable by outsiders.
That post at Ruffly Speaking actually does not help, because not only does it NOT adequately explain WHY one would do a breeding with such a high probability of producing very defective puppies, the average person who thinks it through sees that it is a logical fallacy.
Jess recently posted..Goodbye, Zora
If someone is worried about a bitch producing a litter of unsound puppies, why would someone be breeding her?
And by that same logic, a merle-to-merle breeding has the potential to produce a litter of ALL hearing or vision-impaired, & therefore “unsound”, puppies. Remember, a Punnett square shows you the likelihood of a given genotype for EACH PUPPY, not the percentages of each genotype in a litter. So EACH PUPPY has a __% chance of being genotype X.
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It would seem that interpretation of material understanding Mobile/ Jumping genes findings which are in direct contrast to old Mendal theory have failed to be understood.
I do not know where this breeder has been looking for non crippled collies. Why not try OFA registry.
Granted too many of show collies champions have been straight in shoulder which has lead to wide spread conformation problems.
Why not stay home a weekend or two save your money and do some prelimbs, or OFA’s.
Breeding merle x merle does not improve structure. Better to get that shoulder right
because even when the rear is good or excellent the front takes the pounding. Ever rode a horse with a bad front?
Likewise, failure to recognize that a white merle on collie registration forms is apparently genetically SINE/SINE/MITF.
White factor to white factor has its risk
or maybe like most collie show breeders are
keeping the dust off old outdated color charts? Merle to Merle and Pseudo Irish (White Factor) SINE at MITF. Kathy
Said it before and I’ll say it again (bit more specific this time):
I have Afghan hounds. They are known to have juvenile cataracts, which is a simple recessive. There is no DNA test at this time, but we’ll pretend there is. Let’s say I have the most perfect Afghans in the world, perfectly suited to each, absolutely guaranteed to produce the most perfect fantastic wonderful puppies EVAH!
But they are both carriers. Each pup they produce has a 25% chance of being affected.
Would I breed them? Let’s up the ante, for those who know me: these Afghans come directly from Afghanistan.
Hell, no, I wouldn’t breed them. No pairing is so perfect that it’s worth that 25% chance for a pup. To do so is to consider dogs little more than objects, not living beings.
I’ve yet to have anyone who thinks merle x merle breeding is okay explain to me how it is different than breeding two carriers of a disease that can cause blindness together.
Neat post – I wonder if the author is a breeder with clout?
The magazine “Dogs Today” is an excellent publication from the UK. This month’s breed feature is the sheltie. They have a picture of a blue-eyed white sheltie and note that even though he’s “a beloved pet and star of the photo shoot”, he represents a type of breeding that should not occur.
I do believe that’s the first time I’ve seen the possibility of LW puppies mentioned in any breed feature, in any magazine!
In the UK, the offspring of merle x merle shelties are not registerable – that goes for the normally colored ones as well as the whites.
http://lethalwhitesuk.webs.com/
“At the request of the Shetland Sheepdog Breed Council, the Kennel Club agreed
that with effect from 6th July 2010, it will no longer accept the registration
of any Shetland Sheepdog puppies that are produced as a result of mating two
merle coloured parents together.”
Jana –
Do you know anything about Merle x Merle in Rough Collies in the UK?
Merle x merle collie breedings are basically unheard of in the UK and most European countries. I have emailed back and forth with several people “over there” and most of them were horrified to learn that I actually owned a double merle.
Not sure what the reason is that it’s more common here, but it’s certainly not favored by the vast majority of breeders. There isn’t a strong anti-MM bias, though, just those who do it and those who keep their mouths shut.
Hey Jana, Two of the (I think five total, but maybe more?) rough collies invited to Westminster this year are out of Wyndlair Avalanche, who is a double merle. So I think it is pretty well accepted in the show community.
Oh, I just saw that you said “not a strong anti-MM bias” so I guess I am agreeing with you. LOL
LOL, don’t worry about it – you made me curious, I checked and you’re right!
Most breeders are of the “live and let live” variety. They don’t want to stomp on everyone’s toes, because they don’t want to be stomped on down the road.
Unfortunately, this leads to things like AKC’s constant rejection of any law whatsoever that *might* infringe upon any breeder’s activities – even if that breeder happens to supply PetLand or sell teacup yorkies on Craigslist.
All that position does is make AKC the “bad guy” in many peoples’ eyes. They have to remember that although it exists for breeders, the ones who keep the breeder in business are the puppy buyers. And puppy buyers aren’t as stupid as they used to be.
funny you should mention the white sheltie in the dogs today jana as he is sat at my feet right now. his name is merlin and he is a wonderful dog, very smart and very loving. deaf as a post but he can see, even with his weird eyes, dont know exactly what the condition is but they are not normal just blue smudges really and unlike that other poor sheltie he most certainly is not mute.he has that lovely sheltie trait of being a yapper. i do totaly agree with you he should never have been bred, but he was, i have no idea who by. he came to me as a rescue at 14 mths old i am his 3rd owner and hopefully his last, i guess the others couldnt cope with his deafness, i dont know. anyway i do strongly feel that no one should be breeding merle x merle and definatly not double merles, merlin is neutered as are all my dogs, i just dont understand why anyone would deliberatly breed a dog when they know it will cause problems for the pups but i guess i do really it is called money.(one of my girls is an ex breeder from a puppy farm, she came to me in a right state so i know what some people see dogs as) i cant tell you the people who have stopped me to admire my beautiful dog but i soon tell them the reality, he is great dont get me wrong and is having a normal life, but he so easily could have been born more disabled or not at all. i think i am lucky to have him and i shall treasure my boy for all his life. and i tell you something else he has never had a medical issue weird but its true, my 3 others well they are always at the vet especially my show bred cocker girl (not the pf bred one, she is the only one to come from kc show dog stock). but merl only sees the vet for boosters., on roughs i dont know much about showing , it is not my thing but i think it is the same as shelties no merle x merle. you certainly dont see white roughs like you do in the usa.
thanks tracey
Bravo Tracey, if it weren’t for people like you, there’d be no happyish endings in this little nightmare. If the shallow or ignorant breeders cared 1/10th as much for the puppies they produced as you care about Merlin, we’d only risk these disabled dogs on accidents instead of “wow, this is a good idea, let’s do this double merle matador thing! Or “it’s only 25%, that’s a low number. It’s not like 200% or something” logic.
I know math scares people, but if it’s a 25% of happening in each puppy… what are the odds that it will happen at least once in a litter of 6? It’s 82%, more than 4 in 5 merle x merle litters will have AT LEAST one double merle, perhaps more.
Thanks for taking care of him! He is a handsome fellow, really caught my eye.
It’s amazing how well they can get along. The white sheltie at the top of this page I know personally – she came from a shelter in Missouri. She now lives in PA and is very happy and much beloved.
The double merle problem reminds me of the issue among racing whippets of breeding myostatin “nulls”.
If I remember correctly, it was the breeders themselves who approached geneticists looking for a way to eradicate the “bully whippet” gene. But as it turned out, bully whippets (defined by a homozygous deletion in the myostatin gene) are simply a consequence of mating two high-achieving racers, most of whom are heterozygous for a like deletion.
As the 2007 NYT article put it,
“With the genetic curtain lifted, breeders also take on a heavier burden for the consequences of their choices. Whippet breeders who continue to mate fast dogs with one another, for instance, now do so knowing they may have to destroy the unwelcome bullies such pairings often produce.”
So, if the curtains were lifted in 2007, what’s happened since? Are they keeping bully whippets as studs somewhere? If they are, what’s their quality of life? They’re not blind or deaf, but do they make good pets? Why have they historically been put down, anyhow?
I’ve no idea, but always wondered what’s become of whippet breeding in the aftermath of the bully whippet phenomenon being decoded.
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There is a dna test:
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-bully-test-whippets.html
I looked at the web sites of several race whippet breeders that use the test to avoid breeding carrier to carrier.
Jess recently posted..Goodbye, Zora
Yes Jess and there is a DNA test for Centronucleur Myopathy and present of SINE as well. Kathy