There are 5 Rough Collies invited to compete at the 2012 Westminster Dog show. Those dogs are:
CH Colebrae After Midnight
GCH CH Clarion Ribbon In The Sky
GCH CH Sylvan Argent It’s All About Me
GCH CH Taliesin Fashion Forward
GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication
The final dog and bitch are also the top two Rough Collies of 2011:
|
2011 TOP 10 Collies (Rough) |
|
Breed |
Last |
Dog Name Owner and Breeder |
BIS | GP1 |
Points |
|
1 |
1 |
GCH CH Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication (M) Owner: R Beals/L Rizzo/M Stelter/A Stelter Breeder: M Stelter/A Stelter/J Morris |
3 | 10 |
1124 |
|
2 |
2 |
GCH CH Taliesin Fashion Forward (F) Owner: J Rutkas/M Rutkas Breeder: S Cheatham |
0 | 9 |
528 |
Besides their stellar show careers, these two dogs share the same matador sire, Wyndlair Avalanche, the blind and deaf intentionally bred double merle stud dog.
Wyndlair Cherokee Vindication, son of the shamefully bred Wyndlair Avalanche.
Vinnie’s pedigree:
Taliesin Fashion Forward, daughter of the intentional double merle Wyndlair Avalanche.
Fury’s pedigree:
Both of these dogs are highly inbred with shallow COIs approaching 20%. You’ll also notice that both dogs are completely inbred on the same dog at the great grandfather level, the popular sire Southland’s Bowen Island. In both dogs’ pedigrees, Bowen is the only great grandfather. This isn’t as obvious on a text pedigree, but on a visual one, there is a great degree of pedigree collapse.
Normal dogs have four great grandfathers, not just one. Vinnie has only half the number of great grandparents that one would expect because he’s also inbred on Twin City In Living Color.
What do you think the odds are of these two dogs being brought together to produce the next hot stud dog? Both are merle, both are inbred, and they are highly related to each other…. that’s apparently an excellent formula for success in Rough Collies. Be sure to catch the spectacle at Westminster on Monday knowing exactly the sorts of ethical choices were made to create these dogs. It’s not as pretty and majestic when you peek behind the curtain now is it?
Update: Vinnie took Best of Breed and will be competing in the Group.
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This is so similar to the white tiger fiasco.
So inbred, so defective, but oh so pretty.
I’m not covering anything to do with Westminster this year.
It’s just a spectacle that leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
It’s just competitive sculpture using DNA as the medium.
If the animals were nothing more than clay, I’d be fine with it.
But they have emotions and senses and personalities.
So I don’t think it’s all that wonderful.
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Retrieverman please do not get me crying. Kathy Bittiorf
Shocking! I sent the following to AKC . . . couldn’t find a better email address than communications@akc.org. If anyone has a better point of communication, I’ll be glad to refine and redirect.
Dear People,
I believe a pedigree registration system is a great tool for producing quality dogs.
You have a monopoly, or near monopoly, in handling pedigree registrations, so I’ll register pups with you.
But I am not at all impressed with your ethical standards.
I read that the two top rough collies at Westminster are both out of a double merle sire, Wyndlair Avalanche, is deaf and blind, and whose breeder deliberately bred him as double merle, so as to be able to guarantee all merle litters. Not to mention a high degree of inbreeding, done quite deliberately. That is sick! I want no part of an organization that overlooks such practices and promotes their outcomes at its premier dog show.
Shame on you,
Very well done. Get the public opinion. Kathy
Jen I wish people would be more knowledgeable about what they are talking about the subject they are on a grandstand about. When dealing with genetics you as the breeder has to know what good and what bad are involved with individuals your dealing with. Double dilutes are nothing more than an individual that has both dilute (cream gene in horses) genes from each parent. Some have bad eye sight some have normal eye sight some hear some don’t. Please understand I do not breed merle to merle myself, just wish if they have no eyes that they would surgically close them.
Thank you for staying on this story and following through to the progeny. Windaire collies has a Dr Frankenstein and Avalanche is the monster.
The irony of the name ‘vindication’ is too disgusting. Please follow Vindication to his death which I am sure will be young, What will his stud fees be? What will be his “stud effect” be? It is frightening to contemplate. All that inbreeding for a COLOR!!!! For me color is the least important aspect of a dog’s genetics!!!
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And you don’t have to inbreed for merle!
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Retrieverman loved your posting. I get so weary of explaining and getting arguments regarding dogs and wolves. Yes, and those endangered squirrels on Eastern Shore Maryland can be most troublesome.
I believe we should be very grateful to Chris for a job well down in great non bias journalism with the canine health and welfare in his heart and soul. Kathy
Are you sure you understand the term “non-bias(ed)” ? To be non-biased means to be objective.
I am objective Elaine. To inflict deafness and blindness on your dogs with purpose by way of their breeding is no less cruel and unethical than to inflect it upon them with a sharp stick.
This is unethical breeding. It is cruel. And it should not be accepted and rewarded.
Sorry you feel differently. The collies are worse off for that attitude.
Worse off? Hardly. I have never done a merle to merle breeding. I have lots of merles here, plenty of opportunity. So, tell me, is it more cruel to allow a blind dog to live or more cruel to cull/kill it when one realizes it is not normal?
To apply a blanket rule to this issue is to take away individual responsibility and liberty – echoes of the 1930s and 40s.
Another question: Suppose the merle/merle breeding produced only normal pups with full vision and hearing. Is it then still cruel and unethical?
I would think you would believe it is still unethical because of the possibility of deformity. So if that is true then one could draw the conclusion that you are equally alarmed about possibilities and realities. Using this “logic”,regarding possibilities it is unethical to have children or puppies because there is a possibility they could come into the world deformed.
I write this only as food for thought. After two posts, and both attacked and twisted, I fully realize any validity in what I say will not be recognized. Have a great day ! http://www.Windmarkcollies.net
I tried to insert my website address in the box that appears above the reply space but kept getting a message to insert a valid URL. Don’t know what to do about it, so I typed it into reply space. Apologies for my weak computer skills.
Boy, you are an idiot.
1. I hope that you know that Mr. Landauer is an acolyte Ayn Rand, so pulling this crap as an argument technique makes you look stupid.
2. If you think breeding dogs like this doesn’t feed the animal rights monster, which will lead to many more– and much more hysterical and reactionary– laws than we have right now. You are on Neptune. If you continue to defend this, you are feeding this monster, and don’t say we didn’t warn you.
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Retrieverman I would love for you to share your knowlege and studies of rear dewclaws. Titles of reference are little harder to find that a search engine for me in these massive personal archives of this gentleman. I have never had an authority figure problem with greater knowledge. So please
When you question whether a deliberately produced blind dog should be culled or allowed to live you are setting up a false dichotomy. They should not be deliberately produced in the first place.
As to the next ‘slippery slope’ argument about regulating against the ‘possibility’ of deformity, that is another misdirection. What most are objecting to here is those that are breeding FOR the PROBABILITY of deformity. There is a huge difference.
I am the mother of a disabled adult child. Do not go there with arguments that pretend purposeful breeding with high risk of deformity is similar to chance happenings. There is no footing.
Kary
Selective breeding in dogs is eugenics.
We shouldn’t shy away from that term.
But because it is eugenics, we must be much more careful and knowledgeable about what we’re doing.
It’s not all like deformity that is the result of chance.
A much higher moral standard is placed upon mate selection with selective breeding.
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Kary I agree if it is preventable why be left playing God who live, dies, or remains to witness the suffering and pain. We need to embrace all new knowledge to prevent this from being our choice.
Elaine,
I took a look at your website, and though the dogs are nice (my first one was from Clearvu) I really have to take issue with a couple of things about it.
You say that you didn’t OFA your dogs because they were too young. Shouldn’t you do such a basic test before you offer a dog at public stud? He’s not tested for PRA or MDR1, either? Do you require that the bitch he is bred to be tested?
And the MDR1 testing in general – it’s a simple test and can be done with a cheek swab at home, not a blood draw. Any pet dog who is spayed or neutered might be treated with acepromazine or butorphenol. Immodium is another one on the list – very easy for an owner to medicate their pet with an OTC drug.
The reasoning that puppy buyers might not buy a pup that is mutant/mutant is a red herring (after all, puppy buyers might also seek out a normal-eyed dog rather than one that is CEA affected). I’ve heard people use the same excuse to avoid doing OFA – their dogs can walk all right, and collies don’t have hip dysplasia.
If you have good evidence that a baby you would have with a certain father had a significant chance of being deformed, then yes it WOULD be cruel!
Bringing these living beings into the world in spite of these significant risks always seems to be the result of what the propogator wants. It’s never about the offspring. Selfish.
Urban Chick a good insight into what drive human choices in my opinion.
Elaine, I just checked your site. You say “many of our dogs are normal eyed.”
You also say you have no history of bloat, skin conditions or “Serious” eye problems?
Could you elaborate on that?
Also I read your reasoning behind no MDR1 testing. You said the drugs that would be used are used rarely. Hardly true! Ivermectin is considered a standard in most vet practices and I’ve had even casual dog-owning friends toss the name around as in “Oh, just give her a shot of Ivermectin” like they spoke about taking an aspirin.
Ivermectin is an broad-spectrum anti-parasitic, used for various worms and sometimes sarcoptic mange. It’s relative Selamectin is now all the rage for treating sarcoptic mange as well. Though often touted as safe, I’ve known dogs who took it that were completely unrelated to collies, who had bad reactions. As far as I know there is no proven method reliably antidotal to that drug if something were to go wrong.
I had my australian working kelpie tested for MDR1 because at the time I asked, no one in the USA, Oz or Europe could tell me definitively that large populations of working kelpies were tested neg/neg to satisfaction. THey all just assumed they were fine because they were not listed on the WSU website as a prone breed. And WSU states that “as more dogs are tested, more breeds will probably be added to the list of affected breeds.”
In other words, the jury is still out on the prevalence of the recessive trait.
Why is it so worth the risk then? I did the swab at home!
I love this.
To you “being unbiased” means coddling to your worldview.
The facts are thus: This Avalanche’s breeder intentionally bred him to produce 100 percent merle puppies in the litters he sires. The breeding that produced Avalanache is absolutely known to produce dogs like him– and they can make up a relatively large proportion of any litter produced through these breedings.
Now, is that ethical?
Or are you so eaten up by the show world malarkey that you just shudder when you hear the announcer at Westminster say these shows are about breeding healthier, happier dogs?
In this case, they certainly aren’t.
In country after country merle to merle breedings are banned. That’s right– BANNED– because they represent a real welfare issue.
It’s only in America, where we don’t care about the consequences of our actions that people can go on and on about how wonderful an eyeless stud dog is.
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The truth is you don’t like it because it attacks a mandarin within the show collie subculture.
Well, TS!
A good journalist’s job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, and that’s what Chris has done here.
Retrieverman recently posted..Should the lundehund be in the closed registry system?
Non biased my backside. Chris like you is very biased against purebred dogs & like you he thinks that pure breeds should not exist. That all dogs should be medium sized, brown, wolf looking mutts.
Oh do try harder. I own and breed purebred dogs that are not brown or wolf-looking. They are medium sized though, but nothing against dogs of different size save when their size carries along decided co-morbidities and qualzucht concerns.
Nor will find anything about “pure breeds” needing to not exist.
Troll fail.
Anonymous Doxie: Excuse me but this has been my breed for decades. If you understood anything regarding my breed health issues with the legacy of this breeding protocol you would feel very foolish. Truth is not based on bias or prejudice in any of Christopher’s writing. Your remarks are totally insolence.
Kathy,
Collies of course are not my breed (my name gives my breed away or should anyhow). However my breed also has the merle gene (we call it dapple) & yes has also fallen victim to double merle/dapple breeding. However most of the show breeders in my breed are dead against merle/dapple to merle/dapple breeding and are very vocal about it. My breed’s breed club a few years back banned doubles from the ring. They do however allow the offspring of doubles to be shown. Therefore I’m fully aware of the dangers of merle/dapple to merle/dapple breeding & am fully against it. I’m also against piebald to merle/dapple breeding. I’m against cross breeding as my breed has been damaged enough from crossing. As much as I adore my longhairs (I only have two longhairs at this time & have not bred a litter yet) & the wirehairs I have to admit there would more than likely be NO PRA or Laforas or NCL in my breed if they (the longs & wires) did not exist IMO. Chris has yet to start on my breed but I’m sure he will get to it eventually LOL, as they seem to be another breed that they love to bash on.
Hi Anonymous Doxie.:
I understand what in some degree what is happening to the Doxie as my neighbor who is a Doxie lover purchased a Lemon Doxie after her 12 year old died last year. Gad it is a horrible example of the breed. I am familiar with another show friend who has the small wires and other coats. Wires are her favorite.
Objectively when one compares the issues of not Coats of Many Colors it is the Coats of Many Patterns that all pure dogs should enlightened themselves before any can scholarly breeder discussions such as our Friend of all pure bred canines has been doing.
Objectively, I reviewed this link concerning not only Collies, Border Collies, Great Danes, Dalmatians, Ridgebacks, Labradors, etc.
http://www.bigbaddoxies.com/Information/Dachshund%20Genetics.pdf
Eye and hearing issues are clearly linked to the merle gene for example.
It does not matter if it is double merle Aussie, Doxie, Collie or Border Collie. As you mention the piebald gene as well with breeds adopting varies terminology over the decades. However, be it merle or dapple …it is the very exact gene no matter the pure breed.
Many of our pure breeds today do not have the scholarly ability and yours truly is no acceptation has his talents, education and gifts to not only write but do the objective non bias non prejudicial research. Chris is blessed with the education, moral values for our Pure Bred Breeds to help us in all breeds to face the Truth and Reality to be a Guardian for changes in old breeding protocol.
Now would not only the Collie, Dachshund, Great Dane, Aussie and all breeds with the merle gene be best served by the Guardians of our Breeds to ban double merle breeding. You might not understand this Avalanche is a double dilute, half crippled, can not see likely can not hear either. Since Chris blew the lid off Pandora’s Box this practice still continues among AKC Collie Judges, and Top Show Breeders. The health issues of generations now flooding the gene pool is causing the bottleneck of genetic diversity with a cork on top.
Will the Collie be forced to find such outcrosses into other breeds to keep it from extinction? Looks highly likely. So if your breed is chosen next be grateful to Christopher that he as a Border Collie Passionate would take the time and efforts to help save your Breed.
In summary: “I’m totally against all this merle to merle stuff that Chris writes about and am totally disgusted by it, but when he writes against it, it must be because he has some evil bias against all purebred dogs and not because he actually is totally disgusted by the same things I’m disgusted by.”
What? It is disgusting agreed that breed clubs and/or AKC Health Foundation has not implemented a Ban on Merle to Merle Breeding here in the United States. The Scientific Fact and Reality it produces known mutations of eyes, hearing, bone, blood, heart, and neurological disorders. When will they read the Objective scientific facts and Face the Truth.
Chris, I wasn’t talking about you being biased on this one thing which we happen to agree upon. I was talking about your blatant pushing of cross breeding & more cross breeding and thinking the offspring there of should be given every registration right & show right as their purebred brethren.
Anonymous Doxie: In Collies we use to call it “Old Guard” and some of their decision to protect the breed have through the years been realized by too few were unwise decisions. This creates the action to circle the wagons or is like building another Great Wall of China to new Truths of Reality?
Going through pedigrees over twenty years ago found several pedigrees where merle to merle breeding with piebald (collie folks still call it white-factor). Some of us understand that all breeds that have merle or dapple created apparently in our various breeds by the same foundation. There are so many types of PRA that many pure bred breeders get the type of their breed confused.
I well understand the difficulty because only one type of PRA in specific Doxies is
Miniature Smooth-Haired Dachshund
Miniature Longhaired Dachshund
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
Cone-Rod Dystrophy 1-PRA (Cord1-PRA)
http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/library/articles/dachshundupdate0110.pdf
I understand what was done that created in the breeding program protocol of the miniature Doxie that created this disease?
On Doxies the term “Hidden Dapple” is very misleading, as well as Cryptic Merle in Collies. Breeders use it to describe an adult red or cream in Dachshund which had dappling as a puppy. Dappling often fades on the color red and cream so the adults look solid instead of Dappled, but they are Dapples just like any other Dapples.
A recessive gene, such as Piebald, CAN be “carried” or “split for” – and indeed “hidden.” But like the merle/dapple gene which is an incomplete dominant apparently like other breeds, such as Poms if the recessive red
is present it can be hidden giving a cream not white phenotype?
If you need further understanding the best writer on this topic was Genava Coats as she attempted to educate Pomeranian Breeders prior to merle gene was brought into her breed through outcrossing. We are in the Family of Pure Bred Dogs. No breed is excluded.
http://mysite.verizon.net/coatcloset/id65.html
Thus explanation of first heard from Border Collie Breeders Abroad…Lethal Red and Lethal Purple.
It’s a shame to see some breeders advertising their puppies as “carrying Dapple, Piebald, Double Dapple, Cream, Isabella” etc. (just about everything under the sun). They figure that if a color or pattern is in the puppy’s pedigree, then he must “carry” it. That assumption is extremely incorrect.
Kathy, no it was the breeding of the original standard smooth Doxie to Cocker Spaniels & other spaniel breeds in the creation of the Longhair over 100 yrs ago that put PRA in the breed IMO. The Mini was created by simply breeding runt puppy to runt puppy until the size was brought down. They originally did try to bring size down by breeding to toy dogs but they quickly learned that the dogs looked horrid & worse of all lost huntability so it was nixed and the mini bred down in size by breeding runt to runt using purebred standards. In Doxies we have had at least one case I’m aware of where the dog appeared to be solid Black & Tan but was in fact a Black & Tan Dapple. The dapple gene is a mobile gene which means it hits where ever it hits which can mean one little unnoticeable fleck in one eye. In Doxies we call the “Old Guard” those who believe the breed should only come in Black & Tan & Red LOL. The DCA recently banned double dapples (judges are to excuse them immediately) from being shown but not their single dapple offspring, they also tried to ban the piebald as well (hasn’t worked as some judges will still award points to piebald dachshunds). Well as far as Piebald, Cream, Chocolate & dilute (blue & izzy) if its in the pedigree then its “possible” the dog “Could” carry it while not very possible the further back it is. Right now there are some top breeders (breed club members even) who are working to get a test developed for epilepsy in the breed, they even went about starting a list of dogs who were known to have epilepsy or known to have produced it, however they are meeting alot of resistance from others & had to reduce their list of dogs to only those who were owned or bred by the one who submitted them after some of the breeders/owners of some of the dogs listed threatened law suits if their dogs weren’t removed from the list. Yes doxies have recessive red (ee) as well but it gives them more of a blush color when they mature. Cream in my breed is the chinchilla dilution gene which can also be accompanied by the ee gene as well, giving the puppies a clear pale cream coat instead of them being born mouse grey & it fading to cream as they mature. All colors, Brindle, Wheaten, Wildboar, Sable, Piebald, Dapple, Chocolate (w/ or w/o tan points), Blue (w/ or w/o tan points), Izzy (Fawn w/ or w/o tan points), Red (dominate in my breed), Black & Tan (solid Black included) have been in my breed since the beginning of the Doxie breed. The only one we aren’t really sure where it came from is Cream, it just popped up in the 80’s in Britain in a litter sired by Eng CH Kizzhar Kavalcade. I’m of the opinion it came from the Cocker Spaniel myself.
Hi Anonymous Doxie: First Open Registry is difficult to enforce in old AKC breed Clubs and seems to be no different in Doxies, Collies or any other breed. I find most pure breeds including Collie breeders prefer to believe that each breed is unique in the manner in which inherits it Coat phenotype color. However, the United Kingdom site is in my opinion should be more comprehensive to the complex nature of varies shading with different names. Dog genetics…
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/
New scientific technology provides breeding tools one hundred years even 20 years ago that breeders of that time never had at their disposal. When there is a serious health issue in any breed that has saturated the gene pool extinction of the breed is emit. Why not use modern technology with outcrossing to preserve the breed one loves? I understand genetically and phenotypically the success with the Dals…in cross breeding is genetically 99% Dalmatian? I have seen the improvement with so many breeds …healthier …stronger without the exaggerated freaky faults they call the standard.
Anonymous Doxie: Where is your Objectivity? Objectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to Reality and Truth.
Chris’s research here as usual is a scholarly articles revealing the truth and heart breaking reality to any ethical collie breeder or owner. This is not against the pure Bred Collie it is against in my opinion and experience a breeding protocol for decades that either Breed Club or AKC must guardian the world-wide gene pool with guardianship by Banning.
Is there a program that makes your visual pedigrees? Or do you do it by hand?
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Raegan, I don’t know how Chris did his pedigrees, but I use this program to create pedigrees I put on my website–
http://www.sitstay.com/PedigreeGenerator/
There is also a great website where you can enter and keep track of pedigrees. It was started for German shepherds but now includes all breeds–
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/rough_collie/switch_breed.html
The visual pedigrees are a feature of this software: http://www.breedmate.com/
I use Pedigree Explorer, which has the “pedigree chart” feature. The slightly cheaper version of the software, BreedMate Pro, does not have the visual chart feature but will make more standard pedigree printouts and run COIs, etc.
What would be a good program to use to figure out COI?
Ack!
It goes to show why proposing to withhold registration for MM dogs and MM progeny will never fly, however. There’s too much at stake for these people. Even doing as UKC does, and identifying dogs as “inbred” on their pedigrees, would never get off the table.
The ends justify the means, and breeders are content with the status quo.
I was formely posting as “LO” and decided to create a name here. I am loving this site and will continue to watch it.
I emailed word about the double merles around and asked them to write to communications@akc.org and make thier displeasure known. If there is a better email address I will write to that one as well.
Vindication won best of breed. :/
This post has gotten a lot of hits in the last 24 hours and some of the comments on other forums have been entertaining. Some people are still under the impression that dog shows are fair and objective (they appear to still show their dogs).
If dog shows were fair and objective the results would not look like the results we see from them. There is simply no way that natural probability would align to produce dogs that win as many BIS during a season as those that do.
I guarantee that if you did a study of other competitive sports you would not find the win streaks like you find in dog shows given just how much competition there is.
The idea that judges don’t know the dogs they’re looking at is rather preposterous. What do you think all those ads are for?
How do you think that Wyndlair Avalanche became a matador when he never won a ribbon in his life!?!
Why would all these other show people be flocking to breed to him? A defective singleton puppy that’s never seen a ring?
He proves the point. The game is not played in the ring, it’s played outside the ring.
This post needs to get as many hits as possible.
This is a real scandal.
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Chris, even if he were brought to the ring, he wouldn’t be able to see it.
Retrieverman recently posted..The surprising long life of the dog who played Hooch
I will be watching tonight and will point him out to anyone I know who cares. Horrors! I wrote to the AKC about the double merle progeny and how the head-in-the-sand attitude they have must end! I don’t expect anything but it had to be said. Was unable to allow streaming of the judging at work.
Yes, it is the AKC that must sanction the club. Thank God someone knows club procedure. Robert Rules…,Kathy
How did this compare to the smooth collies? was there any breed represented there that had anything hopeful? (I did note that the Tervuren as usual, had a number of dual titled dogs). It’s sad that the “best of the best” only one can win system drives this sort of thing, but you see it in just about ny of the canine venues. I’d love someday to see a collie entry that had
1. the top conformation dog
2. top obedience dog
3. top herding dog (most HXs)
4. top agility dog
5. a SAR, etc working dog
and then discussed why they were so different. It might at least let buyers see the possible choices. Be interesting to see what differences one might see in various breeds if this was done across the board. And if they added the health information on each dog, it might be even more interesting.
The Tervs do have entered dogs with titles “at both ends:”
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2012/entries/breed/belgterv.html
Border Collies have a few as well:
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2012/entries/breed/border.html
I looked up the top 15 BCs on a show site and found only 4 titles on those dogs:
2 x HSAs – Herding Started Course A Sheep
1 x PT – Pre-Trial Tested (sort of a joke)
1 x RN – Rally Novice
I’d say some of that has to do with the fact that they show toddlers and put CHs on dogs long before they’d even be safe to do Agility.
I have been attenting AKC herding trials for the past year and I have to say, started A course is not very impressive for a BC. In started A course the handler goes around the course with the sheep and dog…at the next level the handler must stay in place and direct the dog, and the dog must move the sheep alone. It’s like a whole nother ball game. LOL!
My herding instructor told me “Don’t get a PT unless you want to get laughed at.” If that’s the only herding title you can put on a BC it’s the equivalent of saying “the dog showed even faint interest in the sheep once.”
A dog that has had any training should be able to get a PT and an HSA in the same weekend, so why bother with the PT? It’s sort of a half-assed title.
RN is pretty similar. It basically means the dog can walk on a leash.
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Regan I can tell you those pot cake dogs pushed into data of rescue from street dogs imported to the United States made this title necessary. I witnessed several neighbors trying to teach these mongrels to walk on a leash. It truly was not funny.
Yes Kate but do you not met a better class of people,who are not so cut throat? Kathy
Definitely…and I love herding. I’m just saying, a border collie should be able to get beyond PT, and beyond started A course, pretty easily. 🙂
Yes, this is like asking Jim Thorpe to jump over a puddle.
Yes, it is a total difference between the fractures that came about in the AWCA.
That’s a good question. Do the retired Champions go on to performance homes, or just reproduce and collect GCH points?
You got me interested in looking at other breeds. The Vizsla fared pretty well:
http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2012/entries/breed/vizsla.html
Vizslas are unusual in that they tend to have virtually no splits between working and show forms. All the German and Mid-European HPR’s tend to have this feature.
You will find far more Ch. Vizslas with suffixes than Ch. pointers– and one does not have to account for relative population either!
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To me it is weird that it is considered acceptable to breed only the conformation champions, while the performance champions are neutered…at least in collies. I’d much rather breed to a performance dog!
Kate well of course it is weird. So would I.
I’d really love to see more people in EVERY breed start breeding for performance. Why can’t this happen?
Because performance is the “red-headed stepchild” of conformation…!
Yeah, and showing is based upon silly assertion:
That you can tell if a dog is quality for running and performing if it can trot around in a circle after it has received a spa grooming.
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It annoys me with guardian breeds a dog with true work drive & ability would not allow a judge to stick their hands in their mouth straight after touching another dogs mouth, nor would they be truely comfortable at the show as they don’t know whats going on back at home(their territory). So the dogs with poor work drive are rewarded & breed on for so it gets hard to find any true working guardian bloodlines as they are all watered down with show dog bloodlines. I have shown a entire true working guardian & deemed it far too stressful for him after 3 shows. He’s wear his paws off patroling & marking boundries for 2 days afterwards, lol.
I will be shot down by many for saying this as they want people to believe the dogs can do both & don’t want to face facts on what true guardian temperment is.
Yes, a collie that is a good watch guardian likewise, will not let a stranger near him, or her especially if they sense they are up to no good.
Love it but forgot the wash, dried, colored, and scissor trims. Yes, trot they do so they can hide the poor conformational structure. Loved to have had you guys sitting next to me when I am going pass her …pass her as the exhibitors to the front and rear were double teaming my daughter. They could not truly let this happen… There were people there who would have immediately realized that there are collies out there that have correct movement. The judge warned my daughter when our collie finally had enough of being kicked by the handler behind him….
All our collie was very briefly turn his head and give one bark of warning.
Kate they are afraid you will be too much competition or worse find out what is wrong with their breedings of champions.
I spoke with a rhodesian ridgeback breeder in NY State who said she used to breed Viszlas, but that you couldn’t get a GOOD hunter to win in the ring because they didn’t like the type; much more muscly than most ring winners? What say you? I don’t know much about Viszlas.
As to pointers, are you referring only to the “Pointer” ( English) or also to GSPs, GWPs, etc?
I have fond memories from childhood of being with Opa in the Pocono mts of Pennsylvania, always meeting all his hunting buddies and their GSPs. The area had a lot of German/Austrian folks so that was the hunting companion of choice for most of them. No one EVER spoke of dog shows or seemed to care. They had fantastic dogs!
I was talking of the English pointer, which has a massive split between performance and show lines. They aren’t even registered in the same registry.
I’m not surprised about vizslas starting to split, but they haven’t split as much as the pointers and setters from the British Isles or golden and Labrador retrievers. They don’t even look like they came from the same planet.
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I’ve seen show vs “field” varieties of goldens, labs and English pointers and I could not agree more.
A friend with a “white” lab tells everyone who asks that the pudgy labs are the “english” labs while the leaner, meaner models are known as “American.” I’m betting this is just a new and popular name game that does not tell the whole story; that “english” = show and “american” = field, or wannabe field.
In golden retrievers, the issue is this.
Retriever trials and tests in the AKC do require quite a bit of specialized training to perfect, and they are quite expensive to enter and actually get titles.
At the same time, you have shows. Shows require the same sort of commitment.
So the people specialize their lines, and in goldens, the popular sire effect exists in both show and field lines– it’s just different dogs!
The show people have totally gotten away from what the breed needs to be in order to function. They are turning them into Newfoundland dogs on the assumption that the founding sire of the breed was of this type and therefore, they all should be. The founding sire was of this type because all wavy-coated (ancestral flat-coated) retrievers were of this type. The Brits then modified the wavy-coat in to a svelter model because the original Newfoundlandy type was too cumbersome and lumbering.
The dog show people are breeding for a type that deemed less useful in the late nineteenth century!
So of course, they are driving a division between the two.
Yes quite a Clear Vu of the fires that now burn within the Collie Club of America after this exposure.
The question now comes do they let their comprehension of all the new molecular and genetic facts and embrace them for the welfare of the breed, not their personal goals and issues? They have the ability within the American Working Collie instituion to make the guideposts to take a Quantum Leap backwards and foward into a new dimension of standards to maintain and return the collie to its grandeur.
Gosh that sad Urban Chick for the Labador. They have had goof offs breeding Labs in the past. Like my friend told me who began learning from her mother who bred Labs and breeding herself for quite a number of years: She said to me, “I do not know where to turn….the breeding color program has gone to Lady Ga Ga….OH MA MA.
Well, not so much these specimens because they will first paraded at the Collie Nationals and get awards of merit. Breeder might even be given Breeder of the Year Award. Senior breeders might be given “Right Stuff Award”. Other champions end up in a type of rescue to live out thier lives in a kennel. Ever read the poem, “Beyond the kennel door?
Chris we are with a generation of instant self gradification not is what best for the Border Collie or any breed for that matter.
There is an event like that. It is the CCA National held annually between March and May. This event also showcases versatility dogs, those that excel in herding, conformation, agility, obedience, rally, etc. Almost all of my collies excel in both conformation and herding as the ability to do what they were intended to do is very important to me. I had Avalance puppies and they were and still are completely happy, healthy and excellent representations of the breed. Moreover, just because a dog does not win any titles or ribbons does not discount them as an excellent dog. There are many studs and damms who never won anything except somebody’s love and still became a notable producer of excellent offspring. The fact that they produce better than themselves is a testament to a breeders attempt to improve the breed. Wyndlair is an accomplished kennel who love and care for every one of their dogs. To assume or criticize them of cruelty shows that people don’t know them. Vinnie is a lovely dog with coat, structure, movement, attitude and expression that exemplify the breed. Please before people comment on Vinnie, Avalanche or any other dog know the breed and the breeders.
Brie – In other words, give up your ethics, drink the kool-aid, and think this is all ok because these people win ribbons? Please. Collies are a pathetic shame and if these dogs are “a testament” and “exemplify” the breed, then the breed is shit. Many hundreds of herding competitions occur every year in the USA and abroad and they are open to any and all breeds, and yet I doubt you can find even a single rough or smooth collie that has entered a trial (let alone won) in the last 50 years or more.
These dogs do not excel at herding, no one would chose a Collie as their go to breed for that task, and no one does. The only “herding” collies you’ll find are perhaps a small handful of people already in the breed who will pay to have their dog play around with some sheep for fun. So no, no Collies excel in herding. That’s just a laugh.
Agility? Please. Find one collie that can beat a mediocre Border Collie. Look at the all breed teams and you won’t find Collies anywhere. There are more Flat-Coats at the top levels of competitive dog sports than Collies.
If these Wyndlair dogs are such pillars of perfection, how come they haven’t produced a single dog that is a top herding, agility, obedience, or rally dog?
Breeding Merle to Merle is NOT loving and caring for your dogs. Sorry, it’s abuse plain and simple. And producing blind and deaf and DEAD dogs is not producing better, it’s clearly producing worse. That the offspring are only suffering from colobomas instead of being completely blind is not a real improvement either.
I don’t need to meet these people. To quote Matthew: “You shall know them by their fruits.” And their fruit is rotten.
Yes Chris and you will know them by their “Mark” in this case what we use to call “mismarks”. Just as Martin Luther nailed his separation from the Roman Catholic church and re-established the Holy Catholic Church called Lutheran. A religion that believed in public education for everyone adopted her in the United States.
Please refer to the following dogs who have excelled in performance events, both agility, obedience and herding, I believe there is a tracking title in there too.
http://www.colliesonline.com/performance-title-archive-2011.php
That is only from 2011, go back further and you will find others. By the way my dogs are on that list. I understand that you have a passion for border collies as that is your breed. But that does not mean any other breed is crap. I do not call border collies crap even though they are not my prefered breed. Whether one breed is better than another will I am sure be debated forever. Collie enthusiats choose what their dog will do, whether it be Agility, Herding, Obedience etc., some only choose conformationa and choose not to pursue other events. That does not mean that their dog can’t, they just don’t. Every dog is an individual, and some just don’t do anything but provide companionship. I am sure there are border collies out there that don’t do anything but bark and keep their families on the go with all of that energy. That does not make them a poor reflection of their breed. Just as there are some collies that excel in the show ring but never do anything else. That does not make them poor reflections of their breed either.
As for eye’s it is a sad fact that collies suffer from CEA. But a coloboma can come from any dog affected by CEA, not only MM breedings. Please do not villify and entire breed and the breeders because there is one dog produced from one breeding that you disapprove of.
John 8:7 “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”
Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.”
There is always something that someone, somewhere will find distasteful in your breeding program, remember that from your high horse, lest someone knock you off. We are all imperfect creatures and you are not an exception.
Well, thanks for the Sermon.
You might be surprised to learn that there are nonbelievers on this blog, including the blog owner.
Jesus wants you to breed the blind doggies!
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“I do not call border collies crap even though they are not my preferred breed.”
Actually, he’s calling people who breed MxM crap. Might want to actually read some of the posts of his before bloviating all over the comments space.
She’s got a few strawmen in that little piece, plus some Santorum Jesus fun.
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Sorry Pai I just though I would paraphrase and try not swear, his actually comment was
“Collies are a pathetic shame and if these dogs are “a testament” and “exemplify” the breed, then the breed is shit.”
He actually called the whole breed a pathetic shame first. Then stated that if “these dogs” were examples of the breed then the whole breed is much worse (as per his comment) like I said I don’t want to swear. I assume by these dogs he is referring to Vinne and Avalanche offspring, but hard to be sure. I find it hard to believe the whole breed is a shame especially since he doesn’t know every dog in the breed. He certainly doesn’t know my dogs because they are not a pathetic shame.
Just trying to stop the hasty generalizations and stereotypes. Good use of bloviate though. I haven’t heard that word for awhile. I think I will add it to my vocab list.
Bloviate only exists in American English, don’t go to England and use it.
Retrieverman recently posted..Tiny chameleons discovered in Madagascar
Well that proves our version of english is superior then, because it’s a great word. =P
Yes, we have taken the English version of conversation and added some new terminology with new understanding and meaning. Now where does this leave the two youths who do not speak but stand in front of one another texting or this generation expressing on mind group thinking on chat sites?
Yes Pai but it is like changing fashion and fads and different taste in fashion, music, and art. Is this a sport of pure bred dogs or is it a fashion trend of Lady GA GA with her strange baby sound music lyrics with what melody?
Yes it is difficult to keep misunderstanding to a suspicious group whose comments overflow from thier chat sites. You see they have been living in a Barbie House. Words my daughter gave to the Barbie girl song the last time we attended the Nationals. She was taking alot of gossiping crap.
“I’m a Barbie girl in the dog show world…see my ribbons from my winnings…I can groom my dog, and hide all its flaws…
Imagination it’s my creation. I am a blonde little girl living in my fantasy world …groom them up…thier my collies.” Harsh realities. They could not see the tears…because she does not cry and let people see you got her. She would not give them the satisfaction.
I am so sorry that your daughter was treated as poorly as she was. Breaking into this sport is not easy and I experienced my fair share of mistreatment. But there are good people involved in the sport, we are not all bad. The best “revenge” in my case was just producing quality dogs and trying my best to win and lose with grace.
Brie: Chris sees the injustice and how the sport is being destroyed by a value system that truly has nothing to do with the health and welfare of breeds in my viewpoint and opinion. Everyone has the right to chose how they wish to enjoy the sport of pure bred dogs, but not at the price of everyone else in my viewpoint.
Hey Pai light as candle yourself and stop stumbling in the dark.
Wow Retrieverman I think you do not understand Chris has strong Christian values. Like my good Orthadox Jewish friends who live Christian Values and Principles. They just do not believe that Christ was a prophet not the Son of God. If you note on his full exposure of what drives him contained on this web site. Campaign promises of our current President in his speeches of last election which seemed to be taken right from old Adolf speeches in Germany.
Our present President told the masses of sheep who could not see and hear beyond racial issues that we basically could now see the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth if we just followed this new Christ? Well, I did not believe him, but too many did. “Beware of false Prophets”
LOL
I know Chris far better than you do! He’s an atheist, spits on Christianity, and once gave a speech in high school about why it’s a load of crap.
If you think Obama is the same as Hitler, you’re a Grade A moron. It’s that sort of paranoia that is driving the GOP off the cliff.
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Oh no Retrieverman do not see him as Hilter. I see him not as a black man either, but a multi-national here to destroy and eliminate us one group at a time.
Ok, I’m sorry, I just can’t let this go.
What is the gain of “destroying us one group at a time?” Beyond just, I don’t know, dancing in the ruins and cackling. Because humans don’t do things “for teh evilz.”
Just like people don’t breed double merles because they love intentionally producing defective dogs; there is some expectation of reward (in this case, more ribbons, prestige, and a lasting impact on the community).
So, if Obama’s end goal is destroying and eliminating America one group at a time, what is his motivation? Power? Um, he’s the president of the freaking United States. Money? See above. And even if unlimited money and power is the ultimate goal, there are WAY easier paths. What, was young Barack Obama daydreaming in History class? “You know, if I just became a lawyer, then got elected to the senate, then was elected as the first non-old white guy president, why, I could take down this whole country! Then no one would ever have to take American History again! Mwahahaha!”
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All liberals are evil, godless, American-hating, marxist lunatics, didn’t you know?
To be honest with you, if this president has done anything, he’s helped restore a lot of faith in this country that I lost over the Bush years.
He’s not perfect. I don’t agree with everything he’s done.
I respect arguments that are based upon facts that disagree with the president’s policies and the general size of government.
The Republican Party has a point, and it should be running on those fiscal and size of government issues.
But no, it’s running on crazy shit.
Crazy shit is not a winning strategy.
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Boy,
Kathy, you’re a regular NWO nut, aren’t you?
Do you drink flouridated water?
Chemtrails are coming to get us!
I bet Obama’s really Prince Phillip’s Kenyan puppet who wants to depopulate the United States through the GMO’s and “socialism.”
I’m hoping it’s that line of lunacy, and it’s not that you think he’s not a “real black man” because his mother was a white Kansan.
Most African Americans are not “pure” if you want to play that line– thanks to chaps like Thomas Jefferson who thought their white blood “improved” their slaves. Lots of slave rape going on.
Further, many East Africans actually have Cacuasian genetic markers, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which are close to Kenya.
There are no pure races. The late Peter Ustinov was descended from Ethiopian nobility. The Roman Empire brought Africans as slaves and soldiers throughout Europe, and these people intermarried among the “white population” — as did all the Empires of yore. Icelanders have some genetic contribution from Native Americans.
So you can disagree with the president on policy, which I do respect.
Or can spread insane lies about him, which is what you’re doing.
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Pai no I did not know that. Sorry no I admit my ignorance. Well, guess the only intelligent solution is to follow Genova Coats solutions to peace. I have been reading her since first began my personal research. Why do Liberals stay here in a free America why not go to North Korea? Kathy
A-men……..NOT!!!!! 🙂
Allow me to quote my lord and savior, George Carlin:
“Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don’t ask me to wear your shoes!”
I totally agree there, I live with a fanatic(my stepfather)born again & there is nothing worse. If it makes you happy fine but don’t exspect me to live by it!
Know where you are with that one Sam. My husband’s mother believe God wanted her blind, so refused to have surgery to see again.
I see Christianity as the first of any Belief System to give the guidepost to human rights. I see the Bible as a good book of philosophy to live ones llfe with the least amount of pain with a joy to find you are here another day.
Right! It’s a storybook with moral lessons. Much like Aesop’s fables and the like. Certainly not to be taken literally or too seriously.
I’ll cast a stone all right & I hope it blinds them then maybe they can get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Sam he with out unknowingly who has done injustice is allowed to cast the first stone. Maybe you are one of those rare human beings …so cast the stone if you are.
Got that wrong Sam if you ever even unknowingly did an injustice to a living creature …are you truly justified to throw stones at others and blind them?
IF you are one that never unintentionally meant to do harm but did…do you have the right to throw a stone and blind them? “Once blind but now I see…” Means NOT ABOUT SIGHT but the true meaning of life and all its social complexities.
Yeah I know what it means & I’m far from sin free but I don’t believe that quote in the bible means we should turn our backs & say nothing when we see a human or animal suffering. I think the quote has been taken out of context over the years.
Sam this is very logical thinking. We can not use Bible versus to excuse our blind eye to these practices. Is it not like watching in silence a person beat the hell out of his dog on a daily basis because he needs something to take his anxiety out on? Kathy
Brie you are coddling your viewpoint and using scripture chapter and verse does not make you a practicing Christian. No one is judging anyone here. Except those that refuse to see nonbias journalism. Who? What? Where? and How?
You are denying Chris and others thier right to free speech? This critique of his emotions like mine pouring out on page to these wrongs. Hey this happen in Nazi Germany. Books were burned and the educated had to flee for their lives. Well, the ones that made it.
You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I only threw out a few verses that I thought responded nicely to Chris’ last sentiment about you shall know him by his fruits. The judgement I see is that of people judging the actions of another breeder. I am denying nobody their right to free speech. You and others have a right to your opinions and you have every right to express them on this forum. I just also believe that I have a right to express my dissenting opinion as well. And if you are to critique the actions and emotions of others you much be willing to subject your own to critique as well.
Brie I have no problem with your viewpoint or the usage of Scripture but let us face the facts there are Extremist and Radicals everywhere.
Brie two topics that are never discussed at social complex peace talks..or social event which seems more true today than ever. Politics and Religion. However, research Journalism of Who, What, Where, When and How? requires this type of nonbias reporting. Basically what are the Ideals of faceless conversation
I am not insulted by being called a Moron because Albert Eistein was a Christian too.
It’s well known that Einstein did not believe in a personal god, and described the Bible as “a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”
A small point, but one worth making.
Take a look in the mirror, you might just find another.
Champion means a dog is acceptable as breeding stock. You will convince me of the validity of conformation titles, when to be a champion a dog must have health certifications appropriate to the breed and performance titles.
German Shepherd people have been requiring performance and health for years, especially in Europe, and guess what? The GSDs you see on TV WORKING as police dogs, SAR dogs, or military lines are European style dogs, not the goat headed, sloping butt ugly dogs from the AKC breed ring.
CebakaLaika,
Now isn’t that a fact & now here in Australia people are importing the working bloodlines from europe as the registered show bloodlines are useless in the field & riddle with genetic stuctural issues.
Absolutely. No one in their right mind looks at AKC Mals or GSDs for working. Working lines typically have blocky heads, square rear ends and more stable temperaments. Working line pedigrees carry a lot of health information about hips and other issues. The best breeders of working line dogs recognize that a good working dog requires attention to temperament, health, and structure.
Amen !!
Ok Chris I think your comments about collies were pretty harsh. Many breeds compete in agility, herding, obedience and rally, in addition to the three or four breeds that dominate each sport. Even breeds like great pyrenees, basset hounds, saint bernards, and other sluggish types can have fun with these activities.
Collies (at least my collies) are very smart and trainable, and it is fun to try different activities with your dog. And like you said, people who already have collies will do herding with collies. I love collies, and I’d rather dabble in herding with a collie than get a border collie and kick ass.
No one and I mean no one would argue that collies are better herders than border collies, but does that mean those of us who enjoy it shouldn’t herd with our collies? And there are actually some people who have gone very far in herding with their collies. I am impressed with anything beyond started A course, as I said before. I am just starting out but hoping to compete in started A course this summer with one of my dogs. Would it be easier with a border collie? Well, duh! LOL
Yes Kate some of us like doing things the hard way. The Border Collie up until say fifteen years ago before entering AKC registry remained a herding breed with little changes to its conformation but that is changing. Is it not rational and right that Chris is witnessing what happen to our Collie not want his chosen bred to follow the same path to Abstract art from Classical?
Kate is not the real issue Collies and Border Collies were bred for two entirely different usages? Kathy
Chris apparently the arguments and attacks will never stop? They like drinking Kool-aid in a mass genocide.
Yes they Do Brie at the Collie Nationals. However, how in advance to the main event or how far from Host Hotels etc. will these events be held from the MAIN EVENT? Just like the Standards of Herding standards were changed of founders of the American Working Collie Association to herding instinct tested with Ducks in many cases not sheep?
Well, guess that was the only way the President could get her second service dog a rear title? Likewise, anyone that has been in service dogs ever heard of keeping one in tact and breeding it? Think you best look to Kings Valley true professionals of the guidepost of training not the shambles of this once great organization.
When you say “once great organization” are you talking about the AWCA or CCA? AWCA is far from a shambles! And there’s nothing wrong with herding ducks – AHBA allows dogs to herd cattle, goats, ducks, geese, and turkeys as well as sheep. A good herding dog is able to adapt his methods to handle different types of stock.
And if keeping a service dog intact is so wrong, why did you breed to him?
Well Jana we have hit another boulder in the road to understanding. Do you know anything about the original founders of the American Working Collie?
Did you not see Chris’s post or even understand it on the National Event he attended. They were sheep that had never as much as seen a fence or ever worked with a herding dog. Big difference
It seems like Retrieverman states unbias means to you to coddle your viewpoint.
Well now you are getting too personal so tread softly because I carry a Big Stick of knowledge.
Jana: These organizations could all be great again if they would get back to original founders ideas and Ideals.
Agility is 1 hour and 40 minutes from the conformation show site and 1-2 days prior. Herding is 40 minutes from the conformation show site and 3-4 days prior. This is mostly because it’s hard to get livestock into the city and have enough room for all of the runs. Easier for us to go to them. And the spacing is to allow for people who have dogs that do both agility and conformation or herding and conformation or all three to allow the dog to complete in all the events. Doing it all in one day is too tough on the humans and the dogs. All of my dogs were tested on sheep. My dogs have seen ducks but I haven’t ever done any runs with ducks. So it’s hard for me to comment on that.
Well seems 40 minutes is not so bad and one or two days prior to the Main Event is it when you have a two week vacation a year? Especially, if you have no school children or any other responsiblities. So all you need is enough money to spend on food and lodging for a week plus all the entry fees. Travel time a day before events and a day going home. Travel expenses and TIME away from responsiblities. No big deal. Right?
Wrong. Hey they likely will have to pay for the right to sit ring side for the chair they sit in.
You see these events also tie up the valuable realization time, as you can witness the soon winners before they enter the Spa.
Ok Brie one hour and forty minutes –they need two hotel reservations. Packing and unpacking equipment. Three to four days before the main event..Conformation. Do you not see the red headed stepchild?
Kathy- I am sorry that you find the scheduling of the Nationals to be so problematic. Each host club does the best they can to find the very best venues possible for each event. The host club is at the mercy of each venue regarding scheduling and avaliablity. Is it unfair that the herding and agility are priior to the conformation or that they are at different venues, I don’t know. The truth is if you only do herding then you don’t have to take a week off, you just go to the days you are entered. Likewise for agility and conformation. Nobady pays for seating or admittance and anybody can enjoy the event or events they are interested in.
Brie do not think that we are picking on you. The other evening after coming home from work I noted my daughter was playing a war game with a chat site attached.
So instead of saying you should get some sleep I questioned her about the game she was playing to relieve the stress of her day.
She explains as I ask about these little regenerating life forces are represented by little flashes of light.
I ask what are those…Oh we are waiting for the regeneration of human life. Oh gad was my reply. Why would a grown woman like yourself be playing such a game of war when you need to get your rest?
She continues to explain. You see Mom this guy lives in Thailand and there is an actual earthquake going on as he plays the game. He needs to do something to keep his mind active not to be afraid the world is going to fall on top of him.
This lady is experiencing high winds in England that are being reported to be only 35mph. She says she does not believe the report because if this is the end of the world everyone is getting blown off.
This gentleman lives in New Zealand. He hunts for his family food and his children are educated via the satelite at home. He was ask why did he not build a grocery store. His answer was there are no other people to support such an enterprise. She said, someone ask …Why do you not move?
She said, the man replied because everybody in the world wants to fight and just maybe he and his family will never know or experience war. Question was posed then why are you playing this war game? He said, because just in case I need to know how to fight a war.
My daughter said what is so ironic even the Chinese do not get along with one another. One Chinese person comes in and kills everybody …all the time.
This man a few generations ago …finally got fed up with this Chinese man killing everybody off. The last time this Chinese individual came into the game…He killed off all his population and said…now take that gook.
I must say that I don’t understand the story as it relates to the conversation, a bit esoteric for me. But I do not believe that you are picking on me. I believe that you and others that share your view have very strong feelings on this issue. I just thought in the spirit of open debate and free information that a dissenting opinion would be welcome.
So you are on the National committees?
No I am not on any of the National committees. Just a member of the CCA and a local collie club. I am a simple breeder-owner-handler that tries to improve the breed with every litter and produce dogs that excel in both conformation and performance events. I try to encourage and support other breeders who have similar aims.
You can’t improve breeds unless you are operating out of the dog fancy’s paradigm, which you obviously aren’t.
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Brie it is not so much that I do at this point and time but folks like Kate might find it difficult with responsibities of a family life.
How can you call someone who did a mating they knew had a high chance of producing disabled pups an accomplised breeder of quality dogs.
All they had to do was find a non merle stud but in their own worlds they got sick of looking so mated merle to merl knowing the risks. At best their ethics are shit at worst they are cruel.
Sam a verse of the Bible…When I was a child-I spake as a child…and understood as a child…but when I became a man –I put away such childish things..Hope, Faith and Charity (replaced with Love)
Kathy, are you saying I should not question their ethics & only cominucate coming from a place of love or are you saying I’m childish?
Sorry but I’m just not sure what your trying to get across with that quote.
I feel I have done my fair share of picking up the peices from many different forms of risky breedings & have had enough hands on exsperiance with breeding not just dogs but many animals species to warrent me having & sharing the strong opinion I do have about certain breeding programes.
Am I perfect, have I never made a mistake in my own breeding programes HELL NO but I did learn from my mistakes & am even willing to share my mistakes in the hope of teaching others so they don’t have to learn the hard way.
Until very recently I was starting to feel very alone & like no one had any genuinue knowledge that they where willing to share about in breeding, risky colour breeding & general animal husbandary & I’m much relieved to have found this blog & a few others through this blog. I live & breath animals & have always been very hands on & had the priveldge of being able to see the outcomes of certain breeding pratices in large numbers first hand. Yet if I try & tell people how I’ve seen a breed saved by out crossing(talking cows now) that had become so inbreed the fertility rate was less than 60%, the mothering ability was as good as none,low milk outputs & servere calving problems all turned around in a 5 year period by introducing new blood from a very very similar breed I get shot down in flames as a byb telling lies. They are so ignorant & sure of their own beliefs that they are not even willing to look at the data & to me that says it all. I am always willing to learn something new & never take anything for granted so would have eagerly taken the data & read it all before I made any further comment on a subject.
These people don’t want to see the data & will say their mentors says……….. I say how do you even know if your mentor knows the correct facts if your not even willing to study the other sides opinion & data to see who really dose have the FACTS.
Sorry to ramble on but I just feel like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall some days I really do.
Sam, you might want to check out the Canine Genetics list (CanineGenetics-L) on Yahoo Groups. Lots of interesting discussions going on over there. 🙂
Kate,Thanks I will do that.
Sam you are not rambling. I 1000% percent agree with all your concerns and likewise anyone coming from pioneer families of farmers. We are not ignorant farmers and growers. Why hAS not been this viewpoint of American Farmers on our collies. These were the grassroot breeders of the collie in America?
Peggy I love to know if these winners have missing teeth or just an scissor bite with missing teeth (deletions) or side view of just how messed up the denture truly would reveal.
The video is live now, Collies should be up within the hour.
http://characterchatter.usanetwork.com/wkc/show.php
Click on [herding/toy] at the bottom, and do leave a comment on the stream to let the Collie folks know that this sort of breeding isn’t ok.
I let loose on the Lundehund people, too.
Retrieverman recently posted..The surprising long life of the dog who played Hooch
After watching the show I was suprised to hear them say that this breed:
1. Was brought back from extinction. So that means HOW many founders now?
2. It’s “required” for them to have six toes on the front feet? Or was it all four feet?
In 1963, the breed population was dropped to 6 individuals. 5 were from the same litter.
Retrieverman recently posted..Should the lundehund be in the closed registry system?
And the “requirement” of extra toes? Are there consequences to this?
I’m not aware of any.
At one time, I read somewhere that the extra toes were linked to the Lundehund Syndrome, but it may have been a misreading on my part. As far as I know, the two are not linked.
Retrieverman recently posted..Should the lundehund be in the closed registry system?
Urban Chick good question. Molecular biology and genetics reveal that due to SINE insertion the mutation of genes likely reveals to us in such phenotype visual the presence of additional genetic material being added or taken away…deletion.
Urban Chick extra toes or extra dewclaws could they not be from the same type of insertion mutation?
I can not watch. Kathy
Chris these two are only revealing the tip of the iceberg. He has produced quite a number of litters if one has been watching.
I wonder if I will be censored again today.
Someone please tell me which American dog show rules were violated when Vinnie won.
Censored? When have you been censored? Certainly not on this blog. New commentors are automatically put on moderation to prevent spam. This is the default setting of WordPress and I support it, it helps to prevent unwanted links and such from flooding my comments.
Every comment by a real human is published on this blog.
As for your question, no CCA rules were violated. Unlike their European counterparts, the CCA condones the breeding of merle to merle to produce blind and deaf matador stud dogs. It’s that this practice is accepted that this is a scandal. It’s not a rules violation, it’s simply UNETHICAL on a humane level.
The fact No rules where broken is 1/2 the point in my eyes, how wrong is it that CCA think this is acceptable. They must think it’s acceptable or there would be a rule against double merle offspring. They also realize just how powerful a big win like this can be & know from past experience it will have many flocking to breed their own Vinnie & most likely will use his deformed sire to do so.
I do not know if anyone has a better answer but sadly none to my knowledge.
I’m not a breeder, I get my dogs when their first owner has dumped them… at shelters and rescues.
Reading all this I have to ask why? Why in the world would you breed merle to merle, or even try so hard to get merle pups? Personally, I think tris and sables are so much prettier…..
Prettier, and healthier.
They are all beautiful sable, tri and merle. Coat color genetics of Dogs is a new breeding tool for the pure bred breeder one that needs to be embraced. Likewise, the danger of knowledge now available to the lethal nature of certain old theory breeding practices must be embraced by all canine breeders. You are only witnessing the transition into a 4th dimension leap in the future of canines and human complexity understanding.