Lars and Kayla are two lethal white Australian Shepherds that were rehomed by the Amazing Aussies Lethal White Rescue of Arizona.
When you breed merle to merle, there is a 25% chance PER PUPPY of producing a double merle and those puppies are quite often blind and deaf. It’s not a 25% chance per litter. One in four of the puppies you produce is expected to be homoygous merle.
So I’ve produced a little table to look at this issue in a different light. The more puppies you have, the more likely you are to produce one of these puppies, but it is possible that you won’t produce one. So I’ve calculated the odds of producing no doubles and the odds of producing at least one double, the more puppies you produce.
| Litter Size | Odds of No Doubles | Odds of at Least One Double |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 75% | 25% |
| 2 | 56% | 44% |
| 3 | 42% | 58% |
| 4 | 32% | 68% |
| 5 | 24% | 76% |
| 6 | 18% | 82% |
| 7 | 13% | 87% |
| 8 | 10% | 90% |
| 9 | 8% | 92% |
| 10 | 6% | 94% |
| 11 | 4% | 96% |
| 12 | 3% | 97% |
So you can see, even if you have a breed that has small litters, say 4 on average, two-thirds of those litters will include a double-merle. This, of course, assumes that all double merles survive to birth, which is not the case. Some people might find this comforting, as if intentionally producing puppies that will be aborted is a saving grace to this breeding ethic, others might not want to burden their bitches or their conscience with these unnecessary complications. It has not been well documented what percent of MM fetuses fail, so consider these percents to be tracking potential fetuses and an average upper limit on the number of puppies that survive.
You can see that when we correctly apply these odds to puppies instead of litters, in a litter of 5 puppies, we have only a 25% chance of NOT producing a double. I’ve read people claim that 25% sounds low, so it’s not something to worry about. But that’s a horrible misunderstanding of what the odds are really saying. In a normal litter of 5-6, we’re looking at an 80% chance of one of these puppies. That’s not a small number by any means.
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
Chris great post! How many will be cryptic due to somatic mutation cells is it not the real issue? The hidden new information that a single dose of merle characteristic is somatic mutation cell? Somatic mutation cells generally spell C A N C E R.
Yep well I can’t see how any 1 can argue with that table it shows us clearly just how hight the risk they are taking.
Cancer would have to have very high odds of being the cause of death in many of these merle & largely white dogs would it not?? Those that make it to adulthood of course.
Chris, I would like to get in touch. Can you please email me at eiriasverchjanis@yahoo.com?
Regards,
Bodil C
Bodil –
That e-mail gets rejected when I send to it. You can send me a private e-mail using the “Contact the Brass” link to the right.
– Christopher
Even if it were just 25% per litter, it’s still way too high.
Retrieverman recently posted..Tibetan dholes kill a goat
Yes it is Retrieverman.
There’s actually a rescue for aussies called “…Lethal White Rescue?”
Is the practice of breeding these poor animals THAT prevalent in Aussie sheps??!?!?!
That made me curious. 🙂
http://www.amazingaussies.com/
There are more than a handful of these sorts of rescues. Many in Great Danes too, for the same issue.
http://lethalwhitesuk.webs.com
Look up ‘deaf dog rescues.’ You will see a lot of double merles.
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Hey, while they’re at it, how about going for NBT + merle. Now that would be one fantastic show dog!
(I don’t get this cosmetic sh#t).
I’ve written that post, Jen.
The Unfortunate Case of the Wild Australian Shepherd.
Chris and Jess, thanks for all the URLs and further reference to lethal whites in rescue of different breeds. Wow! This is so much worse than I ever realized!!! This is a catastrophe!!!
Went back and read “The Unfortunate Case of The Wild Australian Shepherd” too. Great squares! I’ll take a “boring” or “No Way” aussie shepherd anytime!
So true Chris. Great post.
Out of curiosity not long back, I preformed a search on http://www.petfinder.com of Australian Shepherds, Great Danes, Dachshunds and Collies (border included) then I selected “Special Needs” and I was blown away how many MM dogs there were posted. Many of the rescues seemed to have no idea why they were blind/deaf as a result of breeding merle to merle. Very, very sad. =[
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Thanks for staying on this story. More and more comes out! Your blog is Good Investigative Journalism!
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This is all just too much, I wish I had not looked at those links, it just gets me SO MAD!! WHY??? Thats all I have left is WHY OH WHY do they countinue to do this!!!
Sam hope you all understand but I have been watching for years.
The growth of this out of control fashion trend. Watch out Border Collie breeders there are three Border Collies that just moved into Senior Citizen homes. Very docile –layback White spotted Border collies.
I have been mad about breeders who wont take back their pups & ben lost in that fight but I can only imagine how painful it would be to have followed these merle to merle breedings for years.
My goodness dicile & BC just dose not go hand in hand & should not either they are too intelligent & driven to work or should be anyway. White spotted????? When will people be happy with a breed just the way it’s meant to be???????
Hey Chris, I have not been online in awhile but I really have missed so much on your blog! Great posts as always!
I’m wondering if someone would take a look at this portion of a site on Australian Koolies and see if there’s anything that doesn’t ring true. One comment was that a solid cannot carry merle. I only thought solids was dominant to merle.
I have some catching-up learning to do so if this was redundant, somewhere in the many posts this year, please pardon me.
Merle is dominant over solid. One copy of the merle gene and you see a change in the dog. It is not recessive, which would mean it could be carried invisibly. The issue with merle is that it can sometimes be cryptic, so although only one copy is present, its effects might be very subtle and not easy to identify. That doesn’t make it recessive to solid, it’s more of a special case.
Um. Let me try that again.
http://www.germancoolies.com/Merle.html
Urban Chick all can add for your evaluation are some links for your evaluation:
http://easytospot.blogs.com/easy_to_spot/the-sable-merle-collie/
http://easytospot.blogs.com/easy_to_spot/
http://easytospot.blogs.com/easy_to_spot/the-sable-merle-collie/page/2/
all the info i can find is about breeding merle to merle. if u have a double m female and breed her to a tri red , what would be the results ?
If the female is DOUBLE Merle, then all she will produce is Merles. If she is only a single merle (as most are) then she will produce 50% merles on average.
Tri-color is recessive so if your merle is also Tri, then all the puppies will be Tri. If the Merle is not Tri, all the puppies will carry Tri but not show it. If your Merle is carrying Tri (not showing it) then about half the puppies will also be Tri in addition to being Merle.
Red is also recessive, if the Merle is Red, all the puppies will be Red. If the Merle carries Red, half the puppies will be Red. If not, then none of the puppies will be red but all of them will carry it.
thank you for your reply . i guess what i am really asking, is it safe to breed a female that has the mm ? what would be the chances of having a deaf or blind puppy as long as she is bred to a solid or a tri ?
No. Merle is not safe, even in the single form. Even single merle dogs have a higher rate of deafness than non-merles.
http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/StrainMerleJVIM2009.pdf
Here’s another study that shows that mother deafness, merle, lack of pigment on the head are all correlated with increased rates of deafness in merle puppies:
http://www.bordercolliesociety.com/BC_Info/Health_Info/bcdeafness.pdf
I read that first study, and considering the sample size of individual breeds, I’d like to see more extensive studies of the breeds (with larger numbers of individuals) in which merles and double merles are found, comparing the hearing of merle dogs with the hearing in breeds where there are a lot of mostly-white individuals that show hearing problems. (Boy, that was a long sentence, sorry about that.)
For instance–I know anecdote is not data, but anecdotally, I have not heard of merle Shelties (NOT talking about double merle shelties) being more likely to have hearing problems (the LSU study had only 9 Shelties, one of which was a double merle (and bilaterally deaf–not a surprise). Of the other 8, one was unilaterally deaf. Well, OK. It doesn’t seem to prove much. I have known a lot of merle Shelties, none of which were deaf (bilaterally or unilaterally–at least until they got really old). Although show breeders will sometimes breed, keep, and use a double merle male (not something I like, BTW–I think it contributes other problems that are not so apparent) the AKC standard for Shelties requires that any dog more than 50% white be disqualified–which prevents both double merles AND color-headed whites (product of two white-factored dogs, NOT double merles, although there can be blue merle color-headed whites)from being shown in the breed ring.
Now, that said, there are breeds in which there are a lot of predominantly white dogs (not merles) that are often at least unilaterally deaf–I am thinking, for instance, of Jack/Parson/Russell Terriers, white Italian Greyhounds, etc. What is the link between white members of these breeds and deafness?
Then there’s the second study you cite, in which, yes, 25% of the deaf dogs were merles. But 56% of the deaf dogs were black dogs.
So I suppose my questions are:
1) What is causing congenital deafness in predominantly white (but non-merle) members of breeds where it shows up?
2) Is congenital deafness in black border collies caused by the same thing that causes congenital deafness in merle border collies?
3) what about Shelties, which do not seem to have the same congenital deafness problem that Border Collies have? Could it be because of the >50% white=disqualification?
Just questions I find interesting.
* 1 in 8 with deafness is 12.5%, nothing to sneeze at.
* Almost every white-casuing gene has been linked with increased deafness. Merle, all forms of Piebald, Irish markings, etc.
* The cause of deafness is known. One of the factors in producing color in the hair also regulates blood supply in the inner ear. By crippling this mechanism, “hairs” in the inner ear become smaller, more brittle, and thus break and become less or non-functional.
* Deafness in non-merle Border Collies could easily be caused by any of the other white-causing genes. Irish markings, Piebald, etc.
* Not sure what data you’re looking at to establish that Shelties are not subject to the same deafness problems.
I just don’t think you can extrapolate from a test population of 8 dogs, all, apparently, from the area near the LSU School of Veterinary Medicine. I saw the letter asking for merle or double merle dogs to come in for free BAER testing and a cheek swab to determine if the dog was merle or double merle–plus the letter ALSO specified that they were particularly interested in dogs that were bilaterally or unilaterally deaf.
As far as data establishing that Shelties are not subject to the same deafness problems, AFAIK there isn’t any (I did look for some). Which is part of the point. Every Border Collie breeder I know (or know of) routinely BAER tests their breeding stock–indicating to me that congenital deafness IS considered a problem. Not so in Shelties (and there are good, ethical Sheltie breeders out there, despite those who breed and use double merles). And I know a lot of Shelties (pets, Agility/Flyball dogs, conformation dogs, both rescues and known pedigree) none of which are congenitally deaf. Like I said, I understand that anecdote is not data–but if you’re involved in dog sports, it helps if your dog can hear, and lack of testing (when a test is available, and many other tests are either mandated or recommended) would indicate to me that congenital deafness is not considered a problem in the breed.
Technically, Merle is not a “white-causing” gene, but a dilution gene. It dilutes the color that the dog actually is. So my bi-black Sheltie and my bi-blue Sheltie (not deaf, BTW) both have two genes for bi-black (which is recessive), but the bi-blue has a merle gene also.
You can extrapolate from any amount of data you want. 8 dogs is superior to 7, and any scientific data is superior to all breeder anecdotes. And it’s not really just 8 dogs.
There’s no reason to think that merle is a unique and different mutation in each breed it’s present in. In fact, every study indicates that it’s the same mutation across all breeds where it is found. There’s reason to think that cryptic merle is a variation on that mutation involving the number of tandem repeats in the insertion, but this doesn’t counter the point.
I’m not sure if your observations about BAER mean anything at all. This blog is full of examples of breeders who do and don’t test for various reasons. Merle is very rare in Border Collies outside of color breeders and I can’t confirm your observation that BAER is a particularly popular test among BC breeders.
Your point about Shelties is the worst sort of self-deception. I’ve seen similar sorts of intentional blindness logic being exhibited by any number of people who don’t want to actually face up to the health in their breeds. “My breed is different” “my breed is special” “we don’t have that in my breed” “I’m going to assume the unlikely facts that I wish were true instead of confronting the inconvenient facts that are probably true” “since there is no data in my breed, the data from those breeds does not apply” etc. etc.
I know nothing about you except what you’ve posted but your comments read like a Sheltie apologist. I would not be surprised if you own and breed Shelties, in particular merle ones. Why else would you chose to be irrational and willfully believe things that have no basis in reality and which contradict the evidence that is known and documented.
As for deafness, I doubt you have the ability to diagnose a unilaterally deaf dog or a dog that has any partial hearing from casual observation at a dog event. It is not a particularly obvious defect in many cases.
Ah well here we go, you DO have a merle Sheltie. He’s probably not a bi-blue [irish white + red + dilute + merle]. Blue is a different gene entirely and terms like “blue merle” are horrible inaccurate and discount that dog can actually be Blue + Merle instead of black+merle which is called “blue merle.” And your quibble about “dilution” versus white-causing is just semantic nonsense. Dilution fails to capture the actual mechanism, it is NOT true that you’re adding more medium to thin out existing color as one would dilute a paint pigment, you are actually crippling the biological process through which the color producing compounds are created and enter the skin and hair cells. Merle is not simply a “dilution” gene either [even if we use that term], like the gene that modifies the recessive Red color to become Blue (same as Slate, Lilac, Gray, etc.). Merle is capable of crippling all the color compounds in the hair to create white, and it does so even in the absence of other white-causing genes like Irish White, Piebald, etc. “Blue” does not.
All things considered, it sounds like you LIKE merle, you think it’s pretty, and you’d rather not have to consider that it’s not a guilt-free color. Sorry, but reality is crashing into your desire to not be inconvenienced. Shelties are NOT special flowers. They are NOT immune. This is a reality that you have to confront morally and ethically.
Whoa. Please understand that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. I would just like to see a larger sample of this particular breed.
Everything I have read about how Sheltie color genetics functions (and I have read a lot, because I had an interest in it–not as a breeder, but as an owner) indicates that merle is understood as a modifier of the existing color. After my last post, I spent some more time googling around, and found the study that identifies the merle gene:
http://www.akcchf.org/research/success-stories/gene-for-merle-color-pattern.html
You’ll note that they do discuss that the merle gene (even one copy) can predispose the dog for congenital hearing loss. What I am interested to know is a comparison of dogs with one copy of the merle gene, vs. white factored dogs, vs. sable, tri, or recessive black (bi-black).
Shelties, unlike Border Collies, have a fairly limited range of colors–basically black and sable with varying amounts of white and/or tan. Here’s a good explanation of it (and I have yet to find anything that contradicts this):
http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/sheltie.html
Shelties are also one of only a few breeds with a recessive black.
As far as my personal function as an apologist for Shelties, like I said–I don’t necessarily disagree with you–I am just trying to have a discussion here. I’m not a breeder, though my male bi-black (recessive black) has been used once–bred to a tri-factored sable–produced 4 tricolor puppies and one sable. By what is known about coat color genetics in Shelties, all the puppies are bi-factored. I have his half brother, a bi-blue (i.e. no tan markings) who is neutered (because his structure isn’t all that great). All my dogs participate in dog sports (Flyball and Agility).
I replied forcefully because I’ve seen the same arguments being made before by people who would rather bury their head in the sand. None of these studies are ever perfect because they are rarely done for the sake of dog breeders, they are done to create a body of data that is comparable to human research. The cost and implications of animal research is much more attractive than designing studies around humans. Plus, dogs are so inbred, analysis is much easier. Scientists have little interest in peculiar details that are very important to dog breeders who are very often interested in differentiating their dogs not finding commonalities with other breeds.
The ideal study has not been done. To me, the ideal study would have these traits:
– DNA profiling for all breeds that exhibit the phenotype
– Distinguishing Cryptic from full Merle
– Accounting for all white-causing genes, not just one at a time. This would include Irish White, the MANY versions of Piebald (these would need to be distinguished, just like the types of Merle)
– Large N
– Hearing tests which are designated by measured hearing loss not simply unilateral or bilateral full and complete deafness.
Existing studies do not factor out piebald, etc. and those genes have been shown to have deafness rates at about the same level as Merle, we have to know what we’re looking at and what the true causal factors are. For example, I’d like to know what the rate of deafness is due to Irish White, what the increase is if you add Merle or Piebald.
It’s also important to measure hearing loss instead of only counting complete deafness. It’s like saying “because this double merle can react to strong light it’s not BLIND! and thus it’s ok.” Binary absolute measures are misleading.
But until this study is done, take data for data and I prefer to assume data is applicable until demonstrated to be otherwise.
Right, and also white-factoring (which I believe is a piebald gene–there are aficionados in Shelties, but not a lot–few people deliberately breed two white-factored Shelties, which gives a chance of color-headed white dogs, but color-headed whites are acceptable in Collies, and piebald/color headed white seems to be acceptable in Border Collies, with split faces having their aficionados as well.) I have at least one friend who feels that white-factoring (both in Shelties and Border Collies) is also a problem and should be avoided. Her interest is more in Early Takeoff Syndrome in both breeds, but I have discussed congenital deafness with her as well.
Is her theory that early takeoffs (as in a dog jumping too soon in agility, crashing into a jump instead of getting over it) have a vision component such as lack of depth perception, possibly caused by an inherited eye issue?
Nora I have been searching for anyone willing to discuss what appears to be old terminology of white factoring in pastoral breeds. I concern from personal studies of research findings. White factoring appears to be genetically described as SINE at the MITF. Addressing the old Little Theory of the S locus on extreme white assumed to be s^w can not be genetically documented.
Factors such as split faces have long been debated likely due to a modifer that could relate to negative breeders experiences for decades? Piebald/white factoring in my opinion requires new educational insight to all pastoral breeders. Thank you for bringing this topic to the table.
Nora I find that really interesting on the breeding of your bi black to tri factored sable color ratio. I always wondered what ratio differences might be with a bi black. Thank you
His parents were a bi-black female and a bi-factored sable male. That litter also had 5 puppies, 4 bi-blacks and one sable. We’ve had some discussion of breeding him to a bi-factored tricolor bitch–would be really interesting to see what we’d end up with color-wise (they would crossfault well, and they are about as unrelated as Shelties can be).
Fascinating this recessive a black. There was a time when Collies would produce black and whites. It seems did not have favor among the Sport of Showdogs. Sad. Are you using the testing for identification? It is my understanding the a^y and the a can be identified. However, thus far the secrets lying behind the tri markers has yet to be revealed. Bi-Black is easily identfied ..no tan. It would seem one could only identify by assumption of parentage with the sable.
Indeed it is more than interesting to me to know what color-wise is produced. So much could likely be learned IMO as to the complex nature of the interworkings of a^t and recessive a combine with the recessive strongesst it is stated a^y. Do you know the genetic type of allele carried at the K locus, and are they genetically EE or Ee?
If merle is dangerous due to the regulatory mechanism associated with the same mechanism causing lack of pigment in the ears, what if you are breeding merle x merle with incredibly little white and none anywhere near the head? Is it such that expressions of where the pigment will be lacking in pups, such that it is still unpredictable? Or is there more to the merle gene than that behind the risk to hearing?
And what about sight?
Lord, the problem with all the posts is keeping track. Grr.
Chris I wanted to ask permission to send your statement above starting “No merle is not safe even in single form..” to a breeder of German Coolies. There are some folks in Oz telling me this certain person is full of it.
I ask because her site says she has nothing to hide but also states this, as a response to someone apparently lambasting her:
“She says — Oscar is substandard because he’s a double merle. Even though he has perfect hearing and perfect vision, she finds fault with him. This is because, again, she has no knowledge in genetics and has never seen him in person.
Oscar is a rough coat, therefore; he will not sunburn as she reports on her forum. He has dark pigment around his eyes, on his nose, anus and sheath, therefore; not only
will he not sunburn, there is no chance of cancer.
She shouts that he will produce deaf and blind puppies. This is not correct, because *if* he is used for stud, he will be bred
only to solid colored females. All of the puppies in the litter will be merle/carrying non-merle. There will be no solids or
double merles in the litter.
Since his color is due to being homozygous merle, all puppies that he produces will not be white factored, nor will they be homozygous or double merles, therefore; there is NO chance of color related
deafness or blindness. And, because he isn’t white factored this drops the chances of color related impairment to zero.”
This quote came from the site Yata Hae Coolies, and as you enter, at some point you get a lot of places to go and she says “hit the sheep to get there.” Once there you hit Toollala Coolies and from there you get this as part of her defense.
I am in my infancy in learning color genetics and I never used to care when I was younger, but since learning of the significant health-linked issues with white in various forms, merles, dilutes, etc, I am now trying to bone up, thanks to folks like yourself.
Of course you can forward the content here.
The only Oscar I find on her site is on these two color pages. The photos are named Oscar.
http://www.germancoolies.com/Sable.html
Here she claims he’s clear sable + extreme piebald + cyrptic merle
http://www.germancoolies.com/Extreme.html
Here she claims the dog has double blue eyes and is not deaf or visually impaired.
This could be the same dog, and if you look at the top photo it appears that the dog’s left eye is either smaller, not present, or is light sensitive. You can hardly see any of the actual eye. Is that normal? I don’t think so.
So if this dog has “perfect hearing and perfect vision” I’d want actual test results to prove this. I’m not sure what the sunburn point is, but there is no way to fully avoid sunburn or skin cancer, even in a black skinned dog with long black hair. It’s all a matter of probability and it’s NEVER zero.
A double merle stud, but fact of producing all merle puppies (instead of a single merle stud only producing half of the puppies as merle) will actually produce TWICE the number of deaf puppies because single merle has a non-zero probability to produce deafness.
She claims that the puppies this dog is going to produce are not going to be white factored. But if this is the same Oscar that she shows on that page, she claims there that he is extreme piebald (which is white factoring). So all the puppies will get one copy of this and might get another copy from their mother.
Piebald carries a non-zero risk to produce deafness as well.
So the statement that “this drops the chances of color related impairment to zero.” is a lie, a total falsehood.
Chris and Nora think you are targeting the focus of White Patterning or Spotting by simply how many dilution patterns should be present in a breeding. If you put irish spotting, merle, and piebald all into the breeding? It just does not make common sense. Like putting a gallon of bleach in the wash water. Everything is going to fall apart?
Thanks Chris. Of COURSE I should have just forwarded the link directly.
The quote is from a long list of defenses of what appears to be a major detractor of her’s but apparently “She” is not the only one.
Once you start down the list of “She says” paragraphs of defense, it’s the 4th one down, where Oscar is.
http://www.germancoolies.com/Toolalla.html
At a glance this does in fact look like the same dog, and regardless of anything all I have to do is look at this incredibly WHITE collie-derived breed and I shudder.
Incidentally I am reading a Koolie FB page now and they are showing a dog that is a result of a merle x solid with no hearing issues or sight issues, they say, and I have not put the pic here but her head is about completely white including ears.
THey also said a solid pup came from same parentage and is completely deaf.
If the white coloration causes hearing issues because of lack of pigment in the hair, why would a sold pup have hearing issues?
There are several reasons actually for deafness such as liver problems that cause deafness. Let us consider a SINE insertion can cause multiple splicing defects that can pass on to offspring. Sadly these are just some of the denial issues that go on with groups within most pastoral breeds.
There can be a reversal the scientific name escapes me at the moment. It will reverse pigmentation regardless of phenotype pigmentation. However, this process is problematic as will not pass on to offspring if bred. One can get deaf puppies not knowing to my understanding that sire or dam carries the problem. Ugly surprise…Yes?
@Christopher, that’s pretty much everyone’s theory (except for some people who continue to insist it’s due to teaching a dog to collect too much). For some dogs it may be structural (dogs with sub-optimal front assemblies who cannot extend) but in general it’s thought it’s a depth perception problem, and inheritable. Usually it’s characterized by deteriorating performance.
Here’s some info from Linda Mecklenburg, if you haven’t seen it:
http://www.awesomepaws.us/?page_id=416
In Shelties specifically, there’s been some discussion of eye abnormalities from double-merle dogs contributing (the worst ETS in a Sheltie that I’ve ever seen is the son of a double-merle dog). However, it shows up in other breeds and mixes also in which you couldn’t necessarily blame merling or white factoring.
What an interesting article.
I went through some research about eyesight in dogs last year or maybe the year before when discussing a study that said long nosed dogs are far-sighted. (I don’t find this to be true with most of my Salukis.) I turned up some thing interesting things, most of which go back to selection. Nothing on the affects of merle, but it is interesting that collies are often used for lurchers and merle is not avoided. I have even seen some double-merle coyote hound pups, though these got the merle from Catahoulas.
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Jess since I have had long nosed breed and did extensive eye checks and now DNA testing might have some interesting observations to share? The dogs that I have had with CEA do not perceive distances. I have been able to observe individuals knowing who was normal eyed and even those mildly affected with CEA to outside stimulus. No question the truly normal eyed dog misses nothing. The affected dogs pick up when the normal eyed dog responds to movement high in the sky, or at distances? The affected eyed dogs will look at the other dog to see what has its attention searching the environment for what they see.
Was discussing this with the local Italian Greyhound rescue coordinator–we had been taling about the fact that FCI conformation standards for Italian Greyhounds say that white is “tolerated” (interesting choice of words!) only on the chest and feet, while AKC IGs may be any color–and she pointed me to Temple Grandin’s remarks about piebald and blue eyes in livestock:
http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html
Great find Nora on the German Coolie IMO. Likewise, she mentions the color headed white…There was a study in 2009
called “MITF and White Spotting in Dogs: Population Study..
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S66.full. Under family study in collies all colored headed whites were found to be SINE/SINE at the MITF as well as all heavy white collars to be SINE/MITF
Been looking at coolies for some time now and it seems there are those even debating it as a breed in the modern sense vs an attempt at regaining an old “Breed” or landrace that has gone by the wayside, in somewhat the way of the attempts to regain the old farm collie or old scotch collie.
Indeed this history links raises the same questions IMO
http://www.coolieregistry.com/History.html
It seems it could be collie or even Border Collies
The German Coolie REgistry folks vs Australian Koolie Society and some third group, all claim they know “true” coolies/koolies or whatever, vs those randomly mixed with BC, etc.
I told them I have no issues with crosses for genetic health, etc, but if you have a breed in the modern sense, just don’t say so unless it’s true. I was looking for a DNA marker or some paper trail of lineage from far back enough when these dogs were supposedly documented in books. Truth is even in the books they mention, their mentioning is sparse and pics are few. One person even said a family claims they have the only true ones left. Then there is the story of the lab who had genetic samples collected but due to an influx of new management, they refused to let the data go? I don’t know how the legal system works down there and if they would have to pay to fight this but it certainly sounds unethical if true, or else, quite simply hard to believe.
A kelpie breeder from Oz told me they are a breed “lost in the past” and thinks these folks are grasping at straws. I’m just curious about what truths there are, if any. Their proponents seem to defend them staunchly.
Have to read all this through Cmae, but is this evidence that the merle gene or Irish spotting has more to it than affects on pigment production, or has a particular affect, than simply resulting in white? I noted down the paper that there was something special about Samoyeds, which are always all white, where they had a different genetic makeup? Does this protect Sammies? I know I’m shortcutting by asking but I am about to get to work and just wanted to send a quick shout-out. Will read more thoroughly soon. THank you!
Think I may have answered my own Q again, at least partially. But this site mentions piebald in Sammies and Great Pyrs. But I don’t know if I’d recognize Piebald in these breeds. I’ve only seen pure white sammies and pyrs that are pure white or have some beige patterning in a few spots. Is the beige an example of Piebald? http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/genetics.htm
Nora thank you for a most interesting link. Hair Whorls observations that I have long noted on chest of white factored (piebald?) have simulated to me a more anxious temperament?
Dear Urban: Sorry did not see it until few minutes ago…I believe it was Nora who provided this information. I provided the history.
http://mail.aol.com/36962-112/aol-6/en-us/Suite.aspx
I admit I was a bit confused because I brought up the Koolie/Coolie breed first time around and for the most part thereafter, but I wasn’t about to quibble.
NOt that important. 🙂
Not meaning to get too off topic but have collies ever been known to carry and express brindle? ANY lines anywhere?
Did I answer my own Q? 🙂 http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/BCColors_Brindle/BC_ColorBrindle.html
I am speaking to a coolie breeder now who says she has never had a merle x merle breeding resulting in deafness or sight issues, because her merles have no white or irish trim.
I am trying to get a pic of one but does this fly at ALL?
Dumb luck is the only explanation besides outright lying.
Dogs compensate very well for vision and hearing issues. I would question ‘never’ if she doesn’t baer test. I’m not sure you can actually test a dogs vision. If the dogs are used for a purpose which requires proper vision and depth perception, then I’d probably take her word for it on the eyes.
The problem with ‘never’ is that it frequently means ‘never in the dogs I kept for myself,’ or ‘dogs that I kept track of’, and not ‘never ever in any dogs I ever bred.’
Jess recently posted..(Every Day is) Halloween
Basically the person is was showing me pics on FB of a very blackish dog with tans points that had merle. The merle patterning that you can see is rather dilute but you can see where the coat is light, and when I said “That looks like white to me…very spread out whitish hairs but white nonetheless” her response was “That is gray.”
Does that even fly?
Is it possible to attach a JPG to a reply here? This way I can point out the specific dogs she speaks of. I was trying to find a very close pic on other sites but it’s been difficult to find one that is very close, in order to be fair to her.
I am looking around now for one a response that was posted, I think, on one of the many responses to Chris’ many blogs on the entire subject, in order to re-read and understand what it is about merle in particular ( as well as Irish trim) that puts hearing and sight at risk. Because there are other dogs regularly bred with white, like St. Bernards, Greater Swissies, etc, that have white and they don’t have the reputation for putting out deaf and blind pups like the MxM breedings.
Or do they?
Chick found this link from UK regarding lethal white Koolies
http://lethalwhitesuk.webs.com/breedingissues.htm
Okay here. Now, this is from the site designed and run by the person who has the Oscar pics in this blog thread.
Take a look at the top black dog with merle. I think this is a good example of the type of dog that many of these German Coolie folks are safe to breed together, if you want to breed Merle X Merle “safely.” There is still no way to know, from what I am being taught, about the outcome of white and where it goes. In fact the blog owner said on her FB page that you can still have white deep in the ear canal and hair breakage and you would have to scope for that, which is difficult. Seems fair and yet her Oscar pics are attached to information that has been deemed here not quite correct.
http://www.coolieregistry.com/images/chillAxwet_1_1.jpg
Makes the head spin.
Oh also, her concern was that if you breed merles to solids too often merle dogs will disappear altogether. But if a gene is dominant, even if incomplete?…..how would that even be possible?
You have every right to question such a statement. I say hog wash.
Phantom and cryptic merles occur way to often especially when you are playing with modifiers such as tweed and harlequin in my opinion, experience and observations. I am seeing especially in Rescues mixtures and expressions of sable/blue merle patterning that breeding would only make a breed unable to produce solids due to modifiers.
That is not possible. Just like it is not possible to get merle without a merle parent. As a dominant gene, one parent must be merle. As long as one parent is merle statistically you will get merle pups.
Expression of merle is altogether different and highly variable.
Jess recently posted..(Every Day is) Halloween
Just to add, since I have had this exact discussion about dominant genes in Salukis recently, that I have a really hard time with breeders who get simple stuff like this wrong. What other simple things do they also get wrong?
Jess recently posted..(Every Day is) Halloween
Oh yes, they do compensate for vision and hearing limitations. If you do not test how can they be so positive. Yes we know through the catahoula of merle modifiers but have seen no documentation in this breed?
One compensates when one has to in life, but that’s no reason to take intentional risks and I have always agreed here on that.
Going back to this site, which I know was posted here, I am not sure what these folks recommend because they say double merle x non merle is the only way to “safely” produce an all merle litter, but the creation of a double merle in the first place is a lousy risk. Mixed messages? http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/doublemerle.html
The question is not ‘safely producing an all merle litter,’ but why do you want such a litter and is that reason good enough to produce the double merle needed to do it.
The dog fancy is rife with mixed messages and doublethink.
Jess recently posted..(Every Day is) Halloween
Agreed. Double talk in deed. ALso just reading from the coolie breeder that her hearing test is calling the dogs from 15 acres ( I believe this IS a very wide rural area she has) and if they come, they can hear, or certainly well enough for her.
Cute anecdote. Is that how she really tests them? Dunno but she says the gas by her is pretty expensive? It is in most countries of course. I don’t think that’s an excuse not to properly test but 15 acres is a long way if it really were true.
Now the sight test, she jokes, is if they run into a tree they are blind. Not nearly as good of a test. :/
Well I pretty much think it’s because the merle dogs are more saleable, and actually after much messaging I got this person to say “Yes, we do make defective dogs on occasion. Those that are seeing well ENOUGH, we find homes for. For the ones that are deaf/have hearing problems, we put them down.”
That took a LOT of arguing to get the breeder to say that.
This is a great example of how getting a “working” dog does not always guarantee avoiding the pitfalls of bad breeding that the show folks now have the spotlight for.
German Coolies have loads of gorgeous versions of merles that I can see anyone falling for. But I was also told that they nearly went the way of the dodo until someone sort of “revealed” them and when it was seen how neat some of them looked, demand came up and people came out of the woodwork to breed. Hm.
Mind you this response from said breeder was a completely different one from the opening line of “I have never knowingly produced a pup with sight or hearing problems, except for the time one bitch got out and bred to the wrong dog unintentionally.”
Signs point to ‘liar’ then. =P
I thought her last comment to me about only breeding merle to merle when she cannot find a dog with the working ability she likes in a non-merle was a real grasp.
That particular breed or type seems to be loaded with merle dogs, granted. In the same breath she will say that it’s the fault of all the people OUT THERE, to paraphrase her, who like the pretty flashy dogs. Uhhhhh, o-KAY! I love it when people put the blame of their own decisions on everyone but themselves.
In a numerically small breed this may indeed be an issue, especially if you are looking to outcross in addition to working ability, which would limit your choices further. That is one of the pitfalls of having a color or pattern associated with health issues that becomes very popular. It’s a bit like popular sire syndrome, only in color: everywhere you look, more merles.
Jess recently posted..(Every Day is) Halloween
Liar? Probably. Not only did I get two answers regarding how many problematic pups this person produced, I got different answers for why merles are so frequently made. First it was “It’s the people OUT THERE that want it that make the demand; our breed is known as a merle breed.” Later I got “We like white on our dogs so we can see them in the scrub. Stop thinking like a townie.” Then I was told “townie” is not an insult. No, it’s not an insult. It can only be an insult if I allow myself to feel insulted. Heck, a NYer can take any shit an Aussie can dish out. >;) But it DOES strike me as an attempt to belittle my inquiries. How does where I live change genetics?
You location has nothing to do with genetic fact and the brains or willingness to comprehend. It would appear the failure to recognize scientific findings and testing is upon us. The old term white factoring and understanding of differences with the merle gene be it irish patterning s^i or piebald s^p with the merle gene being an incomplete dominant could these alleles of white spotting also modify the merle gene phenotype expression?
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/Piebald-Parti.php
I just purchased a rough collie pup 6 days ado who the breeder claimed to be a white collie. When I got home with her a few people pointed out she is most likely a double merle. I am beyond upset over this and the breeder denies it and refuses to refund my money. Ive ordered a test to prove she is double merle. It’s so sad people are breeding these dogs and selling them to unsuspecting people who don’t know anything about them such as myself. I wish there was something I could do to warn other people so they won’t go to this breeder.