Leslie Smith loves Pit Bulls, but would see all dog breeds go extinct and deny the rest of us our love of our dogs, for her radical idiocy.
To recap the series so far, we have my rebuttal to DogTime’s EIC Leslie Smith trashing No-Kill, attacking breeders for both making money selling dogs and filling shelters, and an apologia for shitty kill shelters. Here I’ll analyze more of the chunky bits in the emesis bag that is Leslie Smith’s argument against Breeders.
Even responsible breeders who genuinely love and want the best for their animals you ask? I know this statement will raise some hackles, but it needs to be said: There are no responsible breeders. At least not now, while our shelters are full and perfectly adoptable animals are dying (some of which came from breeders).
This is a horrible perversion of any system of ethics and morality. I hope Leslie is just stupid or lying because if she means what she has written she is a monster.
First we have the morality of breeders being determined by the actions of others. Punish the innocent, free the guilty. This is radically perverse and echoes the irrational, jealous, and vengeful God of the Old Testament, or any number of megalomaniacal arch-fiends throughout history: pick a scapegoat and exterminate them. A good old witch hunt. It is psychological displacement, Freudian transference: the direction of anxiety from a causal agent on to a remote agent.
This theory of justice is not rehabilitative in the humanist tradition, it is not a deterrence in the utilitarian, it is not retributionist as per the deontological imperative, and it doesn’t incapacitate the criminal from recidivism. In many ways it parallels the concept of a blood sacrifice for vicarious atonement. Burn the innocent breeders on the altar to cleanse the sins of those who abandon and needlessly slaughter animals. Full circle.
When you combine her argument that all breeders are immoral and no shelter can be, it is a disgusting display of callous hatred and infinite self absolution.
It doesn’t matter that you’ve grown up with Collies or that a German Shepherd once saved your life. I don’t care what breed you love above all others. Your passion for wanting to see that breed proliferate is irrelevant when it comes to the welfare of a single animal.
I’m having trouble thinking of any moral theory which so blatantly and unequivocally supports the sacrifice of the many for the needs of the few, or the one. It’s ethical slavery. It’s a culture of death. It’s a god-complex. Notice the egoistic language: “I don’t care what breed you love.“ “Your passion…is irrelevant.” This isn’t someone exerting power over their own decisions, this is someone who is supporting a totalitarian edict to control the actions of everyone.
This is not rational self interest. This is authoritarian despotism. It permits no concept of self agency, of freedom, of the individual living by their own values and efforts. It views the world as parasites and victims and the God Leslie at the top to set it all right. There is no justice, no good will among men, no coexistence without violence or coercion.
Breeding is a hobby for humans. It’s morally intolerable to value the worth of a breed over the worth of an individual. No exceptions.
I can think of no greater perversion, no greater evil than the extreme altruism being shown here, it is the antithesis of morality. To surrender the greater value for the sake of the lesser value. To force the masses to betray their own values and burn them on Leslie’s altar of one sad dog. Who the hell does she think she is, the Great Emperor Leslie who would slaughter every dog and every breed to anoint her own tomb?
She believes that it is morally intolerable to value the worth of the many over the worth of the individual. NO EXCEPTIONS! We should file Leslie Smith right next to the great sadistic egoists of history who would and to all their ability tried, to murder the masses for their own behalf. Smith is a misanthrope and a hypocrite. No one can live this moral code as it necessitates the mass extinction of all other values. That she is alive while one other person in the world starves makes her a hypocrite of the grandest sort based on her own twisted views.
And what is the fuel that fires these parasitic and toxic views? Would anyone who reads this blog be surprised that it’s PIT BULLS?
Pit Bulls are my favorite kind of dog. I see one on the street and I have to fight the urge to race over and nuzzle him. I look at a Pit Bull’s photo and I burst into tears at her beauty. But I’d rather see the breed go extinct than for one more to be euthanized in the name of pet overpopulation.
Leslie Smith is neither emotionally nor mentally stable. She is actively advocating for burning down all breeds, all dog ownership because she can’t keep her shit together over a facsimile of one pit bull.
And she knows it won’t work. But that doesn’t matter to her. It makes her feel good to play the role of vengeful God, reigning over all of dogdom, smiting the innocent to make a show for her chosen dogs, pit bulls, who suffer mightily under her dogma even though they are supposedly special to her.
It is their suffering that gives them value to her. And thus she is a monster.
More to come, stay tuned.
Posts in this Series:
- DogTime Smears No-Kill
- DogTime’s Slobbering Hatred for Breeders I
- DogTime’s Slobbering Hatred for Breeders II
- DogTime’s Slobbering Hatred for Breeders III
- DogTime’s Slobbering Hatred for Breeders IV
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Here’s a good question:
A huge percentage of dogs in shelters are pit bulls or pit crosses, what if you 1. live where they are illegal and therefore can’t have one or 2. you’re really not dog savvy enough to own a real bulldog?
Those are not trivial questions.
And I bet she has no answer for them.
retrieverman recently posted..Gabby Giffords’ dog kills sea lion, people lose minds
Then you just accept the fact that you don’t get to have a dog. Or else, get a cat! =P
I am surprised that Christopher isn’t getting more hatey comments on these articles. I was looking forward to the fun and now I am sad.
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
Sort of like the Sheeple. They can’t handle it so they stay away in droves. At least it’s gone viral on FB and is getting a lot of likes and shares.
THERE ARE NO GREY AREAS! THERE ARE NO QUESTIONS! THERE ARE NO ANSWERS! THERE ARE NO REASONS, ONLY FEELINGS! THERE IS NO DANA, ONLY ZUUL!
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
All dogs are interchangeable. Didn’t you know?
I live in the SF bay area and I’ve never heard of Dogtimes or Leslie Smith. Why waste any energy on some old, ugly, probably fat woman whose bitter that no one will have sex with her and she can’t have kids. Peta at least has influence and followers. They are just as evil if not more so.
She’s an under-nourished Vegan. Not an ounce of fat on her.
The reason I bother is because (1) She’s in a prominent position on a decently popular Dog portal site, (2) She’s a monster, (3) She’s a useful idiot that I can quote to prevent my arguments against the greater Vegan + Self-Righteous Status Junkie Pit Bull Owners from being called “straw men” because I’m not presenting their inane arguments like they do. So really it’s not about her, it’s about the entire legion of zombies who (don’t) think like she does.
Plus it’s just really gratifying to shit on people who make such lousy, thoughtless non-arguments to support their position.
Feewings…whoa-oa-oa feewings!
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
“Jinkie?” I know you can do better than that. Isn’t that what Velma used to say on Scooby Doo? 🙂
*junkie.
I didn’t want to use the word “whore” like the other article uses.
I don’t really understand why so many urban hipster liberal types have such a fetish for pit bulls. Is it a subset of the fetishization of “rescue” dogs as a whole? Does it make them feel superior to express such adoration for a vilified breed? Is it a power thing? (I feel powerless, so I am going to get this powerful-looking dog, while continuing to insist that they are the BEST DOGS EVER and no pitbull would ever THINK of trying to eat another dog and if they do it’s because their owners aren’t as good as I am?)
BTW, I have nothing against pit bulls as a whole–but from experience, they ARE more likely to be dog aggressive, they tend to have a high prey drive, and my dogs would surely look like prey to them (I feel the same way about Jack Russell Terriers, ALSO from experience).
I am an “urban hipster liberal”.
With guns.
And a hunting dog.
And I eat moose-meat.
Just pulling your leg. I have no idea why rescue-groups fetishize Pitbulls. Almost every Pitbull owner I know who went to the dog-park usually end up leaving a month or two later because of some incidence.
Dave recently posted..The Sheep and the Wolverine
I am an urban liberal. A little too old to be a hipster, although I probably would have been considered one back in the day. But I almost fit Christopher’s stereotype further up (not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I have no kids, 5 dogs, and a Honda Element. I refuse to be called a “pet guardian” or refer to my dogs as “furkids” though). Just to offer my bonafides. I SHOULD be fetishizing pit bulls, in other words.
Well see, not being a vegan takes you out of the running right there. That’s the difference between being a fiscally conservative and family-oriented Republican and an Evangelical zealot who is a true believer and who would have no issues condemning people to hell or tying gays to fences. Easy to confuse from the outside, but PRAGMATISM vs. FANATICISM makes a clear distinction.
That’s actually the difference between a Prius, which itself is a symbol of smug self satisfaction and the Honda. This explains the Prius:
The Honda is not such a smug car. That’s why you NEED the “Who Rescued Who?” bumper sticker on the back. It’s like the compromise to practicality and pragmatism that vegan zealots are willing to make. They get an SUV without having to call it an SUV because they are prejudiced and bigoted against SUVs. A minivan for people who despise the mini-van set. So you CAN have one without being an insufferable “status whore” or smug.
HAhahaaaa! The car the Element replaced was a Subaru Impreza Outback Sport Wagon that I drove until near death (I had it 9 years) and then donated to the CarTalk Vehicle Donation program! Do I count yet?
Those bumper stickers bother me a lot. Every time I see one, I want to correct it to say, “Who rescued ‘whom'”?
Maybe my instinctive need to correct poor grammar is heredity – dad is an engineer, granddad is an accountant. Neither has any discernable social skills.
My classification requires increasing specificity. Liberalism is necessary, but it’s not sufficient. I’ll note that no one on the Right treats dogs like this and that the sort of sport dog world and those of you who blog about it, are counter-culture to your prevailing liberal culture. Brad, Scottie, You, and even Patrick are at odds with the political party platform that you vote for concerning gun rights and hunting rights. This is the mirror of right wing hunter types which get all the gun and hunting rights they want but are against their party’s stance on the environment at large.
I’m prone to agree with this assessment of this particular sub-culture:
A lot of the comments on that blog post are pretty repulsive.
That post itself is way over the top. “Like human trash, pitbull dog trash needs to be removed from society, neutered with extreme prejudice, and dropped to the bottom of the ocean.” … um yeah. It’s not surprising that it has attracted lunatics. Some of the most offensive comments are weird though, the n-word comment links to a bodybuilding site? Roid rage maybe?
The inane thing is that there’s actually a point to be made there, that how we treat and demonize, etc. Blacks has parallels to the Pit Bull culture and the gun culture. Not that the comment was anything nearly that sophisticated or circumspect.
Agree on all counts.
I hesitate to make this statement following a comment which includes racial minorities, but most of the people I’ve encountered who do NOT accept that genetic determinism *is* a thing, even when you explain that it’s really not an either/or, yes/no kind of thing, identify as liberals.
Blank slate types drive me insane. General (not breed specific) rescue, is rife with such people.
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
I agree that it IS a “thing” (both in people and in dogs) but there is a nature/nurture interaction, and I do believe that human beings can make choices that other animals cannot because we are self-aware in a way that other animals are not. (In addition to my other liberal attributes, I am also an atheist–though I don’t claim any cloudy new-agey spirituality either, as I seem to be missing the god gene.)
I do not think that the ability to make these choices is related to race, but I DO think that the range of choices people THINK they have is related to socialization, socioeconomic status, and education. Which reestablishes my liberal bonafides, does it not?
Actually, it rather does ‘reestablish your liberal bonafides’ because nowhere in your comment do you state that the ‘choices’ people make may be influenced by their genes.
If you want to understand where I’m coming from on this, you should read Razib Khan’s blog:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/
His comments regarding genetic influence on behavior pretty much reflect my own.
And you’ll note that I stated quite clearly, “even when you explain that it’s really not an either/or, yes/no kind of thing.”
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
I thought I did say that in the “interaction of nature/nurture” comment? Well, that was what I MEANT, anyway. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. There may have to be an active resistance of bad or at least unproductive choices that are definitely influenced by inheritance. (The decision about whether these choices are bad vs. unproductive has more to do with how whether they injure other people, IMO.)
Jess, just went and looked at the site you were talking about, and I think (you can tell me if I’m wrong here) that there is a difference between what the author is discussing (genes that predispose a person to a disease) and what I was thinking of (genes that predispose someone to a behavior). Which may NOT be an either/or situation, but genes that predispose you to breast cancer are surely different than genes that may predict depression and all the behavioral problems that can come with it (as a for instance). I was told back in the day that cancer, for instance, was 80% genetic and 20% what you do (which is why my heavy-smoking, coal-mining, black-lung having grandfather died of a stroke–because he ate bacon and eggs for breakfast every morning and was seriously overweight as opposed to developing cancer, though he smoked until the last year of his life).
I have several friends who avoid alcohol because they have family members who are alcoholics and feel that they are predisposed. To me, that’s behavioral. And related to dogs in that way. It’s possible to keep a dog from a situation that triggers genetically encoded behaviors, but they’re there. I can say that WRT a nest of baby bunnies in my yard–my old Sheltie ripped their heads off and ate them. Another Sheltie simply watched the nest and jerked his body every time they moved–guess who actually ended up having herding instinct?
Sorry, one more comment. I would refer to Hunter S. Thompson’s book “Hell’s Angels” for a GREAT description of a tribe he refers to as “Linkhorns” (from Nelson Algren) and alternatively as “Snopes” (from William Faulkner’s story “Barn Burning”). The section is much, much too long to quote here, but I’ve always been a fan of his insight into this. In my current copy of the book he says this starting on page 155: “Others, however, broke down under the call of respectability and answered the call of the genes… The publicity ruined him, but influential friends kept him out of jail by paying a psychiatrist to call him insane…”
Thank you for clarifying.
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
Isn’t the fact that White people can’t talk about minorities or anything racial without worrying claims of racism, i.e. political correctness and thought control around race, also a legacy of the Left?
Yes, and no. In my particular case, my mother’s side of the family was from Arkansas and Louisiana, and they were quite blatantly racist. They moved to California in 1952. I remember my grandmother refusing to watch the Cosby Show because he was an ‘uppity black.’
A visit to my mother’s family when I was fourteen was…interesting.
I made the qualification because didn’t want the comments to veer too far off the subject.
Jess recently posted..Guest Post: Suzanne Phillips: Why dogs develop food allergies
It’s clear why rescues fetishize PBs. They don’t like to euthanize any dog and they have a hard time placing PBs. No kill is a great moral concept, but what do you do with a shelter whose population is dominated by dogs who are not appropriate for family pets…at least not for families who can’t afford good fencing and won’t take the time for socialization and training required to keep game ness under control?
A Jack Russell Terrier that weighted twice as much would be menace to society.
I was involved with a Fly-Ball club for a while and was training Dublin and Celeste for the sport and there was one lady who had a slew of JRTs that was a fixture of the flyball world because JRTs are a very popular height dog. She was recruited by several of the local teams.
At practice one night, one of her nasty little beasts kept going after a German Short-haired Pointer and the GSP was a good dog about it and kept avoiding the dog and running off. The GSHP’s owner was getting frustrated with her dog, however, because the dog wasn’t performing the sport because it was avoiding the JRT. One time on a pass it veered into the other team’s lane and almost lead to a crash between the two dogs passing there.
So over the night the teacher kept barking corrections at the GSHP owner and it got to her and when, during another exercise the GSHP finally stood up for itself and growled back at the nasty JRT, the JRT woman broke down and had a hissy fit, berating the GSHP woman and then all of the rest of us about how our dogs could kill her dogs and how it was our responsibility to control our dogs and she threatened us about what she’d do if our dogs hurt her dog.
I piped up and said “Lady, your dog is the ONLY breed here that was bred to kill anything. Look around, that’s a gun dog that’s bred for a soft mouth, these are herding dogs which are bred to protect and move livestock and not bite. YOU, YOU have a little killer. Your dog is the one that goes into dens to kill animals and bite them to death and bite them and not let go. YOUR dog is the killer and a liability to all of our dogs. You dog’s ego and desire to fight is YOUR problem. Your dog picking fights with bigger dogs is your problem. If your dog comes at my dog and makes it my problem, it won’t end well for your dog and your threats mean nothing to me.”
I’m in a Flyball hiatus right now (my older Sheltie is basically retired, my younger Sheltie simply does not like the box and I haven’t felt like INSISTING she get used to it) but I have a young Italian Greyhound with a ton of ball drive (unusual, I know) and once I get going again, hope to train her for the sport. I AM worried about the other team (or possibly her own) viewing her as prey. And the dogs that behave aggressively most often, IME, are JRTs. In my area, though, there are fewer and fewer JRT height dogs and a lot more mixes that IN GENERAL seem to have better temperaments (or are perhaps just better trained than the JRTs I’ve encountered in the past–or maybe, since most are Staffy crosses, the handlers are aware of the stigma that can go with that and really do work harder to get dogs with good temperaments).
Good for you, and for the GSP! I always have rolled my eyes as a rule when dog owners I know at the park, get into who’s dog started what; not that it happens often by me, but it happens.
But sometimes there is a pretty clearly unfair situation afoot, and small dog folks seem to get away with murder, no matter WHAT small dog is involved. Even little killers seem to appeal to those with a strong instinct to overprotect something cute and “teensy weensy.” And their little darlings can never do wrong. In the world of these owners, responsibility is a one-way street.
I sold a (Lab) pup to someone who had sheep and acquired a JRT by marriage. She assumed the JRT would be safe with the sheep due to size. WRONG. It went for the throat and took down one of her favorite ewes. I guaranteed her that the Lab would scatter the flock, but not kill them.
JRT, APBT, SBT, foxie … For my money most terriers are a bit iffy…though I’ve met kindly examples of many terrier breeds.
But then I’m a SW beer drinking liberal who drives a Prius, so I’m not sure my opinion counts.
I didn’t preempt Leslie Smith’s opinion from counting, in fact I gave a rather lengthy analysis of it. That’s the opposite. I do not, however, apologize for pointing out that her opinion was motivated from social grandstanding and karma grubbing consistent with her other choices and biases. There’s a good degree of parallel and ironic hypocrisy in how people like Leslie treat pit bulls versus how they treat SUVs.
I don’t CARE what the demographic is for Prius owners vice Lamborghini owners is. I care that one group seems to think they have the right to limit the rights of others, just as one sees in many religious zealots. You get “true believers” in all cultures, in every generation, across the centuries— Jim Jones, the Shakers, Gnostics, Atenism. What concerns me is when they try to force their views on the rest of the world.
The “I’m morally better than you” bit is one of the oldest views people use—just read any of the literature of any religious group. “I have the truth” is one of the major themes one sees in most religious and quasi religious literature — and environmentalism is, in fact, quasi religious. (This isn’t to say that there isn’t any underlying truth to the message, but then the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is found in a lot of religions too). The problem comes in when a general principal or concept is made an absolute or given more “power” than reality justifies. Environmental influences, upbringing and even genes are used to argue total lack of responsibility for anything on one hand and yet others are held absolutely responsible for the environment, upbringing and genes involved. There’s no logic to that. And again, when it goes from ‘their belief” to proselytizing and from there to attempts to employ force, I find it objectionable. I don’t care who they are.
In the scenario regarding the JRT and the GSHP, I will merely note that plenty of Bouviers, Belgians or Dobermans would have dealt that JRT a response it might not have recovered from on the first snick snack annoyance. Herding dogs are not all sweetness and light. As retrieverman has pointed out, Goldens can and do kill prey. The fault was not so much with the JRT but with the owner for not properly managing or dealing with their dog AND with everyone else for putting up with it (the teacher kept barking corrections at the GSHP) until something really happened. Bad behavior is bad behavior. The problem with the DogTime people isn’t their # of children (or lack thereof), marital status (or lack thereof), gender, etc – it’s that they are zealots. Like the JRT, they get “away with it” and then argue that they are the victim when someone finally gets fed up with it. The response needs to be not on who they are, but in upholding the right of others to choose for themselves and in responding to the errors in their propaganda.
Maybe if you are not too busy being a slack-jawed redneck from Arlen, TX.
“Lady, your dog is the ONLY breed here that was bred to kill anything.” Oh the irony. The JRT didn’t breed himself now, did he? Yet he’s at fault for hunting and eating while humans get a pass for hunting for pleasure.
Give me a break. You want to cry genetics? Pit bulls were bred to be friendly and obedient toward people. Maybe ‘hipsters’ favor pits because even a shitty environment doesn’t trump nature and even most rescued fighting dogs go on to be loyal family pets when given a chance. I may be just a dum negroe wurking in an open-door shelter, but I iz still abel to tipe yor americun-speek!
Think again before you stereotype me as some San Francisco liberal. I don’t drive a Prius and my other car isn’t a bike. I’m not vegetarian let alone vegan. But I’m also not a hypocrite who runs around screaming “They smeared No-Kill! They smeared No-Kill!” while stuffing my face with cheeseburgers and breeding dogs for hobby.
Oh but that’s different, right? Those are cows. Cows don’t count in America! I’m in charge of what counts and cows don’t. But don’t kill dogs and cats! There are tons of people to rescue them from the evil shelter killing fields. Not ME of course. I only want a pet that has never set foot in a shelter and has special magical papers from a breeder, but OTHER people totally should!
Go ahead and school me like you did Annie. Someday I’ll get my inferior brain around your twisty-turny logic. Really I just want to see your head explode and watch you throw up all over yourself the way you did with Rick James. The way you lost your shit, that was epic.
Oh or were you ‘debating’ him? Maybe you’d like to take ME on line by line?
Well too bad. Debate isn’t who can thump their chest and yell asshole the loudest. Sorry, no one to lynch here. I’m out. Jess can go back to practicing pitchfork ninja moves in front of the mirror and hall-monitoring the Comments. Nora can go back to writhing and moaning every time you mention slobber.
Christopher, you can go back to hiding behind your doublewide computer screen, playing Hitler, and claiming persecution because a mean old lady doesn’t like your hobby.
Breeders are such a misunderstood lot. I hope I didn’t hurt your feewings.
Thus my clever use of the passive voice “was bred.”
Prove it. Pit Bulls were bred for pit fighting.
Actually, MOST pit bulls of all types go on to be dead in a shelter. More than half of them.
Tell me you voted for Romney. Go on, list all the reasons he’s better than Obama.
What part of No Kill requires one to be a Vegan and not breed dogs? There’s nothing hypocritical about my stance. I don’t support No Kill because of some cosmic intolerance for killing animals. I support it because the current shelter system sucks and gets horrible results. I don’t believe in No Kill based upon vegan-woo-woo philosophy, I support it because it works.
Cows are delicious. The second thing I thought after pulling a cow out of its mother and admiring how cute it looked was thinking that it was going to be a delicious prime rib some day. Mmm Mmm Mmm.
So true. I don’t want a dog that has been ruined by the horrible shelters. One of the things I admire about No Kill is the push to actually trat the animals well, to not turn shelters into prison cells, to stimulate the animals and not turn them into psychotic messes. Mental torture, lack of exercise, no play, no loving humans do not make for good dogs. Especially Border Collies. I don’t want a rehabilitation project.
And the truth is that most people are NOT actually able to rehabilitate shelter animals. Plenty that care try, but they continue to make excuses for them for their whole lives. That’s not what I want.
I judge a dog on its merits, and having been “abused” or abandoned or discarded does not make it a better dog. I don’t value them because they are victimized. Being neglected by being in a shitty shelter is also not something that adds value to a dog. Again, why I value No Kill, they stress the use of foster and rescue to keep dogs in home environments with care and stimulation, not in concrete cells with cages all day.
“Prove it. Pit Bulls were bred for pit fighting.”
Yes they were… But… Here is the thing. In the late 1960’s a man by the name of Bobby Hall came about and started fighting his big, black, man biting, killer, dog named Bullyson, and in the early 1970’s another man that used the handle Mountain Man and HIS big, black, man eating, dog, who happened to be related to the above mentioned Bullyson, hit the fighting scene and changed the fighting game. Those two were absolute destroyers and both of them produced human aggressive dogs. Because of the way the dogs were bred, people were more likely to be tolerant of the human aggressive tendencies of the progeny of those dogs and that spread to tolerance of human aggressiveness in other pit lines.
Before then the dog fighters typically killed human aggressive dogs.
One of the reasons they did so, was that they believed human aggressive dogs were curs, or dogs that were likely to quit fighting (which incidentally, it’s said the Bullyson dog curred, not once, but twice)
Not only that, but a number of them followed the cock fighter line of thought that if one in a clutch was batch, the whole clutch was bad, so if you had a human aggressive fighting dog, they would typically kill that dog, the whole litter that dog came from, and sometimes even the parents of that dog.
So for quite a while, while pit bulls were being bred for pit fighting, they were ALSO being selectively bred for non human aggressiveness.
That was then, and I’m not saying that the current crop of dog fighters are utilizing the same selectivity. I’m just saying that once upon a time, the safest dog in the world was a game bred pit bull. BECAUSE they were bred for fighting, and because human aggressive dogs were considered losers, they were also bred for non human aggressiveness.
THAT was the cause effect that fergusona32 doesn’t get. They weren’t bred to just be human friendly and obedient because they wanted a sweet friendly dog. They were bred to NOT bite people because they wanted a dog that they could fight without fear of getting mauled in the fighting ring, or losing their money if their dog bit someone, since many of the old rules also stated a dog that bit someone in the fighting ring was the automatic loser.
First and foremost, they were bred to fight.
I will stand with you on you on the assertion that more than half of all pit type dogs in shelters end up dead. I actually do not know of any pit type dog that has been adopted from a shelter that was NOT a wonderful pet. Probably the best dog the family had, but it’s not because the BREED is so wonderful, and least anyone misunderstand, I am a pit bull lover, former ADBA APBT breeder and pit bull rescuer, and I have been involved in the breed for almost 30 years. In other words, when it comes to these dogs, I know my shit…
The number one reason that so many pit type dogs do so well as pets once rescued, is they ONLY adopt out the best of the best of the best. Those dogs have to pass those stupid temperament tests that are death sentences, on TOP of having to pass all kinds of other evaluations that other dogs do not. That is what fergusona32 doesn’t seem to get.
No one can look at the top 1% of a breed type and declare the whole breed type to be this way. That is ridiculous. Some dogs are nasty and some are not. My brother has a puppy I would love to put down or take off his hands and put some serious training into, because I do not trust this puppy. At 7 weeks old, this puppy is snarling, and snappy and serious in his intent to do harm. All I can see in 5 years is this dog mauling some kid. This puppy was nasty from the time his eyes opened. That is nature and sadly my brother likes how he acts. He thinks is cute and funny that this puppy is snapping and snarling at people and sees no reason to train him to be a good canine citizen.
I bred a litter, lovely lovely dogs. Gave one to a friend who proceeded to ruin my dog. She spoiled this 35 lb dog like he was a 5 lb dog, and he acted like an insecure dominant male, and I HATED that dog, and I hated HER for what she let him become.
He was nasty, snappy, sneaky, fearful, he’d run around you and attack you from behind. Worse of all, he was hyper aggressive towards children. NO dog in his litter, in his LINE ever acted like that before or after. I was GLAD when he attacked the wrong dog and that dog killed him in one freak chest bite, because I knew one day he was going to pull loose and maul a kid on the block he lived.. and every other house had multiple kids.
Mind you, this dog Volhard tested in the FOURS. He scored perfectly for a pet. These puppy was MY personal second pick in the litter, I only liked a brother slightly better, because the brother was flashier and was just a tad better in conformation. It’s been almost 20 years and I am STILL SEETHING with rage at how that woman RUINED my dog He is an excellent example of how NURTURE makes for a nasty dog.
And my story is an excellent example of how no animal now leaves my property without a legally enforceable contract. I don’t care how much of a best friend you are to me.
tl;dr
In the process of being bred for fighting, pit bulls were also bred to be non human aggressive, which changed about the late 60’s early 70s. There are some lines of game dogs that are still people safe, and I trust a game bred pit bull to be more non human aggressive than any other breed. However, I recognize it is a side effect of them being bred for fighting.
The pit type dogs that make it out of the shelters are the creme de la creme, and anyone that doesn’t recognize that is a fool, what with liability issues and the high chance of having to defend a suit should that pit type dog maul someone. Therefor it should be no surprise that the FEW pits that are saved from shelters are such awesome dogs. However, that isn’t necessarily because of the breed, it could well be because the dog was raised right, since I have seen with my own eyes the effects of the wrong people raising these dogs.
Some of these dogs are nasty from birth and some of these dogs are made nasty by being spoiled. A good owner can make a nasty dog nice and a bad owner can make a nice dog nasty. The worse combination that can happen is when a bad person gets their hands on a bad dog.
Wow! VERY nice – a reasonable pitbull knowledgeable dog person.
It’s important not to let sentiment cloud judgement, and your post is a good illumination of that. I likes.
Excellent, thank you for the thoughtful contribution.
What I doubt is for the ability of mere-men to create an animal that is both game and tame with the ability to respond so differently to people than to other dogs.
For example, Border Collies are bred for a kind of gameness, the drive to herd. They must be mentally stimulated by the movement of the sheep and they must work at a certain distance, not so far that the sheep are dismissive and not so close that the sheep spook and scatter. The same sort of bounding of behavior exists in BCs as you are describing for fighting dogs. But there are still Border Collies that will worry stock, and there are still BCs that will nip and bite. Why? I imagine that it’s because the behaviors are not perfectly separable. It’s a balancing act.
So if a century of trial sport can’t produce a dog that is both driven but not over-driven, then I doubt the ability of the fighting culture to produce an animal whose virtues are also not separable from their vices.
So I don’t think statements like this, “I’m just saying that once upon a time, the safest dog in the world was a game bred pit bull.” CAN hold up to dogs that are selected with no weight given in favor of any behaviors that make them a liability.
There’s also the question of, if you are a game dog breeder and your goal is to win in the ring, are you going to sacrifice temperament outside of the ring if it hurts you in the ring? We see this happening ALL THE TIME in the show world. There’s a TON of claims of “I breed for temperament” but dogs like Cocker Spaniels and Golden Retrievers get reputations for being quick to bite and even vicious … things in NO way bred FOR in those breeds, all because the breed ring doesn’t really test temperament so you can have a beast of a dog and “manage” it outside the ring.
Vis-a-vis game pit bulls, I think of human boxers. Try and find one who doesn’t beat his wife outside the ring. There ARE some class-acts that rise through the ranks, but often it’s real life thugs who are also the most competitive in the ring.
I assure you, Mr. Ferguson, I disagree with Christopher about many things, including his assessment of shelter dogs–most I think make perfectly fine family pets, and some make excellent Agility and Flyball dogs too. Between the shelters I have volunteered with, and the rescues I have either fostered or adopted, I’ve seen some very nice dogs. It helps, though, that the shelters I have volunteered with made an effort to work with the dogs and walk and play with them, and rescues of course place foster dogs in homes to live until they’re adopted.
I do agree with Christoper, though, that the problem with pit bulls is not the people who don’t want one. The problem is with people who DO want one, and then find out that the dogs don’t fit in to their lives. Why do YOU think that so many pit bulls end up in the shelters? Somebody bred them, sure, but somebody bred them because there’s a MARKET out there for them. And then they end up in shelters, and people like you (and Leslie) say “awww, da liddle snookums won’t hurt a FWY.” And then find out that yeah, they’re dog aggressive and have to be managed and managed hard. (BTW, nobody deliberately develops a whole breed to be indiscriminately people-aggressive–even deliberately protection-bred dogs are supposed to have an “off switch”–so to say that pit bulls are “bred to be friendly and obedient toward people” is kind of a red herring). Terriers of all types were bred to be GAME (attack prey and ignore pain) and tend therefore to be much more aggressive towards what they perceive as prey. That can be small animals. That can be other dogs. That CAN be people.
Dogs of all types can and do bite. Bigger dogs + “game” dogs = more damage when they do. This should be obvious.
So, Mr. Ferguson, what are you doing about proliferation of pit bulls with iffy temperaments in shelters not equipped to spend some time working with them? Cuz it ain’t MY job, and it ain’t Christopher’s job to “fix” them.
He was criticizing the choice of breed, not the dog. Jack Russell Terriers are chosen by hunters for their prey drive. Most pet-owners don’t need this type of dog.
If the lady was actually considerate of the venue or the sport she is in, she would had been more considerate. Like how I carefully picked my dog.
I deliberately chosen a breed which is supposed to be social around dogs and either confident or aloof around humans without seeking attention. At the same time, his breed is expected to hunt bears and boars and keep them still– which means catching (nipping or biting) the boar or bear occasionally. The breed is also supposed to be able to bay moose, which requires the dog to only follow the moose and bay and not touch the moose. He is also a breed which is used in grouse-hunting and in hunting fur-bearers. For that, he is required to have a soft mouth while dealing with fur pelts.
Would I enter him into agility? No he is too independent for that. He would frustrate the other people by ruining the courses and doing his own thing, so I don’t take him to those places. There are many breeds better suited for dog-sports. Do I trust him around other dogs? Yes.
I never really understood why people with terriers bother taking their dogs to the park or to sporting venues. There is very little conscious effort in breeding for more dog-social individuals.
So I don’t understand why if I take the time to make sure my dog don’t piss off other people or dogs (ie. dog-sports), why people with dog-aggressive breeds are entitled to use dog-parks or off-leashed roaming.
Dave recently posted..The Sheep and the Wolverine
I forgot to add that Jack Russell Terrier has a history of being used in pit-fights in 1800s. Even then, up until recently, it was typical to test the temperament of the terriers’ “gameness” by having stand-offs in the conformation rings.
Dave recently posted..The Sheep and the Wolverine
“Christopher, you can go back to hiding behind your doublewide computer screen, playing Hitler.”
As if the rest of your tirade wasn’t already asinine enough, you end with a Godwin. Good job.
Watch out POLAND! Here I come.
Having an Unpopular Opinion on the Internet = Invading Western Europe. Good to know!
Never mind that I’m fighting against Leslie Smith and the AR FASCISTS. Command economies and breeding BANS are not the tools of free men, but that’s exactly what Smith and PeTA et al are demanding.
I want a PeTA is a PiTA bumpersticker!