Wyndlair Kennels has closed down. They’re the outfit that intentionally bred Merle to Merle in order to create a double merle stud dog named Wyndlair Avalanche “Aidan” that would always pass along that color to his offspring, and in so doing knowingly risked and achieved a profoundly disabled blind and deaf double merle dog who was widely used in AKC Rough Collies.
Their “Collies for Sale” page has been replaced with this message:
NO COLLIES CURRENTLY AVAILABLE
Unfortunately, we are not currently breeding any litters. We have relocated for a new job opportunity and have placed most of our dogs in new homes.
If this is the first time you’re joining us for the Wyndlair Avalanche saga, you can educate yourself about the dangers of breeding Merle to Merle and the unethical intentional breeding of such to create a stud dog who always creates Merle puppies.
- Lethal Semi-Dominant: Merle
- Who’s Your Double Merle Daddy?
- Double Merle Breeders Don’t Want You to See This
- Double Merle Breeders: In Their Own Words 1
- Double Merle Breeders: In Their Own Words 2
- Double Merle Progeny at Westminster
- Westminster Rewards Cruelty
- The Blind Collies of Westminster
- No Repeat for Qualzucht Collie
- AKC Gazette: Merle Dilemma
Hopefully this is the end of the Wyndlair saga and no one need ever again breed Merle to Merle or be rewarded for doing so. I’ll close this chapter with two ironic quotes that Wyndlair Kennels posted to their public Facebook page:
A “Judas Kiss” is when you portray an act of love but you are really betraying your ethics, morals, and relationship to the object of your love for gain. Judas sold out Christ for 30 pieces of silver and his kiss was a sign to those who then captured, tortured, and crucified Christ.
What better metaphor for what Wyndlair Kennels did to Aidan. They knew the risk they were taking and what gain they wanted out of it: simply a lazy means to produce a few more Merle puppies per litter. And when Aidan was the only puppy born from their unethical and disastrous breeding plans, they didn’t learn the lesson, they used this dog to father dozens of offspring. They not only inflicted blindness and deafness on Aidan, they then exploited his malgenics for their gain. Any breeder should love their dogs and never betray their ethics, morals, or trust with those dogs for gain. But Wyndlair Kennels betrayed that trust and they cashed in for their silver bowls and nylon ribbons. Such trinkets can not restore function to Aidan, however and that is that poor dog’s cross to bear until his death.
By what standard can anyone claim the Wyndlair Kennel was acting on behalf of by creating a profoundly disabled dog and then using him as a puppy machine? What standard says that intentionally inflicted blindness and deafness is what is desired in collies. Let alone that this state of inability and suffering is some “initial form.” For that matter, can anyone on the planet find even one representation of an historical working Collie from Scotland that looks anything like the dogs Wyndlair produced?
I don’t think any Scottish shepherds would demand their dogs be blind and deaf, covered with excess hair and unable to enjoy the most basic pleasures in life let alone endure the work of a hill shepherd.
It’s cold comfort to hug a silver bowl and nylon ribbons will never warm your feet. Too bad Wyndlair Kennel didn’t realize that the health and well being of their dogs was more important than chasing after awards of silver and nylon. At least now the callous and unethical breeding schemes have ceased. May they remain a painful memory and not simply a temporary hiatus.
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Chris and other Border Collie Fanciers: : Do not let this happen to your Breed Club or those who receive their Judging Licensing and mentor status.
I wonder if this is the announcement of what seems to be the morose growling of caustic biting irony of sarcastic utterances on Facebook to the Collie Educational Standard breeding protocol for decades to selected individuals. Is this just a response to the Judas Kiss?
. “What goes around comes around.”
I don’t know about the AKC Border Collies, but to some extent a rather unhealthy obsession on producing colorful puppies has infiltrated the Border Collie world already.
There are people breeding for merle, or at the very least sable and tri, right now — quite a few of them are considered “serious breeders” because they are using (or got some of their dogs) from pretty decent working stock…but again, if the big criterion is producing colorful puppies, how long is that pretty decent/good bloodstock going to hold?
*admission time: we got our female BC, who is from pretty decent working stock, because she was one of the few in the litter who didn’t come out merle or even tri (at least they weren’t breeding merle to merle nor were they at that point inbreeding at all, so that’s fortunate)…and we ended up with her because we felt sorry for her…because she was just plain black and white (and more black than white, so not even flashy there), her “serious breeders” pretty much tossed her in a back kennel and didn’t even so much as feed her properly for a growing puppy (she was pretty damn skinny and dirty when we got her, and the colored pups were fat little shiney butterballs, so no excuse); she was a throw away simply because she was born plain jane, boring black and white (not an “illegal” color by the way, just not fancy)…that’s the flip side of this: breeding compromised dogs to get color, and treating the un-colorful pups like throwaways because they can’t be sold for the same price as the easter eggers.
She’s a nice dog, very athletic, very biddable considering that rotten start, and healthy as an old goat (probably the only way she survived)…but by the time we got her a lot of psychological damage had been done…she’ll never be as good as she could have been (being afraid of strangers is the tripping point — we probably will never compete her in anything due to that; it takes her way too long to trust strangers, and a show grounds isn’t a place where you can plop a squat and take an hour quietly sipping tea in order for her to get over her fear and come up to you)
**and yes, we reported it — I don’t know if anything came of it
Jennifer you bet this is unhealthy and the Border Collie was protected for decades against this type of selective breeding. All one has to do is look at the Rough and Smooth Collie in relationship to Selective Breeding on merle breeding going back to foundation of the Landrace Herding Breeds. The Border Collie remains with its Dominant Black with its coat color expression of “Bb Ee and Beyond” in it’s gene pool selection. Now look at the Genetic Coat Colors of Smooth and Rough Collies. Left with only the Agouti recessive phenotype and genetic expression of recessive coat colors. No dominant black, and apparently not even a recessive black expression only a^t black and tan.
Thank God they stopped.
Hugo let us hope that God continues to be on the Collie’s side because this Aiden was a ROM. A producer of Champions this is what Register of Merit means. A registered AKC male who produced champions that is an inbred without any DNA testing double dilute.
Several of those champions have already produced second and third generations.
How long before a four generation pedigree will not reveal to new breeders this exist?
Yes, thank God for Chris for his devotion to all Herding Breeds. I am a firm believer that our Breeds came from the same Landrace Foundations.
.
Jennifer you picked the pattern that has less mutations. You see the Border Collie still has dominant black from the B Locus.
http://www.bordercolliecolors.com/welcome.html
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/some-genes-are-transmitted-to-offspring-in-6524945
The Border Collie has also the dominant K of this locus.
Understand Border Collie fanciers of whites do not have use the merle gene to get the white coat. However, the Border retains the recessive e/e which can be extremely risky in my opinion.
Don’t get me wrong — we’ve got tri color pups out of a previous litter (from two black and white parents) and we’ve gotten blue eyed pups from the two litters we’ve had; it’s kind of fun to get the unique colored pups (like finding the brightly colored easter egg).
But I never thought you should center a breeding program on color — goes back to my experience with horses (the paint horse breeders have some issues with lethal white vs. getting foals with no spots, and those poor little buggers are treated like cast offs too — which means, if you’re in the horse trading business that you can pick up some pretty nice animals for a song…if you can get to them in time, before the effects of being treated as a cast off start to take hold).
Treating a perfectly good baby like a throwaway just because it isn’t fancifully marked is also ridiculous, and just plain wrong, in my eyes.
Kinda goes back to what I learned in Catholic school about the culture of life vs. the culture of death in a sense — only a culture of death would purposely set up a situation such as this; this is not respecting life — and if you’re going to be in the breeding game you have to have a respect and love for life (since you’re purposely going about bringing it about).
That there are genetic issues with animals which are highly specialized for a certain color trait just backs up the more mundane wrong-ness of this.
What Border Collie fanciers need to realize through fashion and fad the breed is being taking down the same dead end road of the Rough and Smooth Collie.
I quite realize the Border Collie has the tri but it has black and white BB KK is dominant black. The tri comes from the A locus only allele “a” recessive black and the a/t for black and tan exist. The dangers exist with dilutions with red and the merle gene in combination to the D dilution for example. Read the Nose and Eye color changes in pigmentation in relationship to phenotype coat color on the Border Collie. It is the same expression of pigmentation.
You might like to read Genava Coats for instance.
I am afraid I am not following what you are saying. With red and black, you aren’t talking about dilution but pigment-type switching. Or have I misunderstood your comment?
I am also unfamiliar with Genava Coats. Could you provide a link?
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Lesli I understand you see this a switching. When phenotype depends on a complex of genes. The D locus for example is a dilution gene not a color …the E locus is called an Extension. The K locus is a new Locus standing for the last letter of Black. The merle gene likewise is a dilution not a color but creates a color pattern. Canines are not Coats of Many Colors, but are actually Coats of Many Color Patterns.
I am not sure we are talking the same language. Extension and agouti (and in dogs, K) are part of the pigment-type switching system. I am trying to understand why you see a mutation there as posing a risk, if indeed that is what you are saying.
And yes, I understand the nature of complex color phenotypes. I am familiar with the issues with Dilution (d) and Merle, but I am asking you for a specific reason why recessive red is a problem, or for that matter why diversity at any of the pigment-type switching loci are an issue. Or was I misreading your comments about black-and-tan?
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Lesli have you ever heard of term “Lethal Purple”?
Lesi: This writer is in Poms for years who writes beautifully in lay language. Many have ignored her because of her breed not being their own.
http://mysite.verizon.net/coatcloset/
Thanks, I’ll look it up.
It isn’t really something that’s going to be pertinent to me — because I don’t breed for color, so likely any dogs we do breed going forward are likely to be black and white (or at least one of them will be — I won’t pass up a good dog if it’s the nice and the right price just because of its color).
Drat!
But nice to know — while it’s doubtful that it will happen here, I certainly don’t want to play roulette with it either (and it’s good info to pass on).
Why is retaining the mutation for recessive red risky? Or are you referring to the fact that recessive red hides merle?
Lesli Kathman recently posted..More albino dogs
I’m not so sure that retaining a recessive red is necessarily bad or particularly risky persay — just don’t get so hung up on the color that you’d up the risk quotient by intentionally breeding to get that recessive color homozygous in your animals.
I see by your avatar that you know something of paints — well, think of people who would intentionally run the risks inherent in breeding for overwhelming overo color in their foals because they have to have it — kinda sorta the same thing.
If you’d intentionally run the risk of getting dead or severely compromised to the point it won’t be healthy/may have to be put down offspring, then maybe you need to be called into question — because you’re literally saying “I don’t care if some of them die/are horribly disabled; I want what I want — and I will make sure that others want it too so I can charge a higher price for it”.
And if said person blows their own horn about how noble and great they are for upholding “the standard”…well, they deserved to be spanked in public (they deserve to be spanked in public for just the former, but to then make out that they are some sort of responsible folks, well I smell something, and it isn’t roses) — which is kinda what happened here!
**I should add: intensively breeding to make a recessive trait predominate means you’re 1) probably going to be doing a lot of inbreeding; 2) are probably going to have to lower your standards in other areas like hips, eyes, whatever in order to get the desired color fixed — and those lead to sickly animals with a world of problems
I have that avatar because I write a blog about horse coat color genetics, though it sometimes veers into the genetics of other animals (particularly dogs). That was why I asked about the comment regarding the “extremely risky” prospect of retaining recessive red. Recessive red is not to my knowledge associated with any health issues, beyond the fact that it can hide the merle gene. So I was curious if that was the reason, or if there was some other issue involved.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Any recessive gene that is specially selected for, carries risk simply because you have to do the things I listed 1) bypass other criteria in order to get color; 2) have a very small potential breeding population in order to get it.
Those are usually pretty good ways to wind up with other less desireable traits fairly well embedded in your future breeding stock (plus you may see direct bad results — like when paint breeders intentionally flirt with lethal white in order to make sure they get overo foals, sorta like what these Collie breeders did in order to get merle).
The lethal white mutation (LWO) in horses is not recessive.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
But both parents have to be carriers of the gene in order to get a lethal white foal — granted, it isn’t a recessive mutation persay (my bad there), but as it is comparable to the merle situation in dogs (the parents have to carry the color modifying genes in order to achieve offspring with the desired coat pattern — and therefore the temptation to try and make sure you always get said coat pattern, even at the risk of a known, catastrophic result related to doubling up), I used it as a good example of what happens when breeders toss out sense in order to obtain a specific, desired color (in the case of the horses, overo coat pattern).
And I’d go so far as to say that breeding for a specific coat pattern/color is by its nature going to limit the breeding stock population one can choose from — which is pretty much known to cause other issues irregardless of the risks inherent in trying to fix a specific coat pattern that in its double dose state causes huge issues (like premature death, blindness, deafness which are pretty big risks).
What it comes down to, and I think we can all agree on this: there are known risks (let alone the treatment of offsprings who wind up lacking the desired color/pattern — which does happen), and the ethics of taking those risks are nonexistent in any sensible definition of that word. Anyone who engages in willfully pursuing such a path isn’t someone who should be emulated nor congratulated, certainly not as “defenders of the (breed) standard”.
It is a very different situation, because all they actually want is white on the body. The frame mutation became widespread in the Paint Horse breed in part because it reliably places the white in precisely the area needed for regular papers. However, there are presently 27 other testable white patterns that those breeders have to work with, many of which can be combined both with frame and with one another without problems (and some that cannot, and some that are not yet understood). There are also many many more that have not been formally identified. In fact, most Paint Horses carry multiple patterns.
It is a *complex* situation, and that should be the take-away. I do not believe the answer is to play nanny to breeders, and limit their choices so as to ensure no one makes bad decisions; the answer, in my mind, is to give them as much information as possible so they can make good decisions. Oversimplification is really not in anyone’s best interest.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Nonetheless, while I certainly don’t believe in nannying anybody (it’s a free country), I have no issue with criticizing people who pursue breeding plans that could create both an animal that will lead a short, crippled life or animals that will be cast by the wayside all for the pursuit of a color.
I consider both to be highly irresponsible and unethical — and also the sort of thing that would be far more likely to bring about real nannying than all of my criticisms put together.
I don’t really care if somebody wants those color patterns in either dogs or horses, but I do care if they are so unwise and/or uncaring as to risk the future health/soundness of a breed or an individual so as to get it.
As I have already stated: I’ve got a horse that’s both grey and high white paint with blue eyes. While many find that pretty neat (which is their choice), I should be allowed the freedom to see instead an animal that has been given loaded dice in the direction of future cancer possibility and in the present gets a nasty sunburn if I don’t cover her up when the sun is shining, and that to a certain extent producing color (rather than soundness, conformation, movement, termperment) played a part in her parentage (fortunately she lucked out in being “not bad” on the first three and “very good” on the last — she’s no world beater, but at least she’s a very good kid’s horse…it could have gone much worse for her…and this has been the case with a lot of animals that have been bred with color as a major thought; how is this right?).
This goes for dogs or anything else — it’s never good to place something so shallow as what color it is in the forefront of a breeding plan; there are so many other factors which imhao are more important. That is the biggest issue I have with the whole color thing: it appears as though many breeders will focus on getting that exotic color above other concerns (as the topic of this thread attests too in the extreme) — this isn’t responsible stewardship, and people who engage in it should not be surprised if they are called out for it.
I would also add that horse breeders are dealing with a very different set of issues, which changes the equation from what most dog breeders have. Each breeding produces one offspring, and the logistics involved make getting there an expensive proposition. All aside from the ethics involved, a lethal white foal represents a significant loss to a breeder. Sure, there are breeders who cross frame x frame, but those are far more often due to ignorance than a disregard for the risks (though obviously that does happen). That is actually one of the challenges facing dogs with the merle mutation, because dog breeding does not have the same built-in deterrents that horse breeding has.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Nonetheless, the Paint horse people will often take the risk for the reasons you cited.
And they will often overlook other traits in pursuit of color; I have noticed that many colorful horses are lacking in conformation and athleticism (at least some kept as breeding stock might not be kept as such if they didn’t have their exotic colors) and yet are still used as breeding stock because of the color factor.
Which makes one wonder why on earth anyone should get so hung up on a certain color so as to compromise overall health and soundness.
To be fair: I also find keeping an overall exemplary animal out of the breeding pool because it is exotically colored a mistake as well — as you stated, it is color breeding. However, making the purposeful decision to select for exotic colors that carry some known issues (like photosensitivity and marked susceptibility for cancer) simply because they are exotic seems a bit silly to me. Granted, I have no real personal impetus to keep those colors afloat (I’m not overmuch concerned about what color my animals are other than the possible implications that might arise from them being so and how this might affect their offspring should I decide to breed them), so maybe that’s it.
Jennifer-Kudos
How is the purposeful breeding to get a coat color really any different an issue for horses as opposed to dogs?
The risks of a failure may be higher monetarily, but people have nevertheless engaged in it; perhaps the only thing that doesn’t make it so endemic a problem is that horses are still by and large used for things that require a bit more structural/mental soundness than perhaps show dogs do (the halter horse world is a small one comparatively speaking; horses still have to perform a job of some sort to be viable to the majority of buyers) and they’re slower rate of reproduction.
If they could reproduce like dogs (and with embryo transfer along with AI we could get into a situation where only a few select animals are literally having “litters”) and were smaller and more domesticated like dogs (thus losing the need for animals with some standard of functional soundness and biddability), what makes you think that horses wouldn’t go the exact same way many pedigree dogs have gone?
My statement was limited to the situation with LWO. The financial risks and the availability of other options for reliable color production make it an easier issue to address than merle to merle breeding. I am not sure how that was interpreted as an endorsement of selecting based on color. You are more than welcome to follow the link to my own blog, where you can find three years of archived posts that make my position on the risks that horses face in following the lead of the dog world more than clear.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
And here: while it is partisan, there are photos which are quite informative (and I agree with the author 100%).
Please tell me where this is any different from what’s going on with dogs? (and dog people and horse people really should take note of each other…you have a lot of similarities in your respective worlds, learn from each other in a constructive way!).
http://shameinthehorseshowring.blogspot.com/2008/09/halter-industry-built-on-greed.html
Oh, and here’s another post:
Overlooking genetic defects which can cause crippling and even terminal issues in an individual, linebreeding which helps to encourage the proliferation of these defects, and gee, for about the same reasons that the dog show world do them!
http://shameinthehorseshowring.blogspot.com/2008/10/show-ring-genetic-defects.html
And I might add: these are just the defects in the stock horse world; there are others (Arabs have a genetic defect which affects the nervous system). However, the stock horse community has been probably the worst offender when it comes to looking the other way about this stuff…and the Paint horses are probably the worst of the lot (at least AQHA has addressed HYPP and HERDA to some extent, although a bit too late and too little if you ask me).
Chris has been covering deletions and insertions for quite some time on this blog. Dogs born without anus for example. These mutations such as natural bob tail to bob tail born with no anus, Breeds who are hairless to hairless born and will have no teeth. This is another. A partial or complete Albino is about mutation.
http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/cp1info.html This testing explains that Cleft Palate is known to be caused by an insertion. Now what are insertions such as the merle gene, piebald gene, and now they state the tri gene is caused by an insertion?
White Doberman findings. Partial Albinso
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092127
This is a good primer to understand better Deletions and Mutation diseases and disorders and malfunctions of biochemical disfunction.
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/mutationsanddisorders/possiblemutations
Lesli – thanks for your cogent and intelligent comments.
I believe you were kindly assuming there was some actual point that was obscured from the original assertion, hence; you were questioning – when it seems likely at this point it was a lack of understanding leading to subsequent attempts to “dig out,” as the expression goes.
Thank you, Richard. It took me too long, back when this conversation was on-going, to realize that was likely the case. Because my own work involves writing for an audience that is not necessarily well-versed in genetics (particularly the more modern genomics end of things), I often find it helpful to know just which pieces are missing from someone’s understanding. The time involved with this one, however, was perhaps a bit excessive relative to the information gleaned. 🙂
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
This is one of my most breeder friendly written site below. . You will note in this writing specifically the dangers of lost traits to selective breeding. This is the history that will be repeated as knowledgeable breeders search for what could be the cause of extinct black and white collies. Note on Rain Shade Collies were she attempts to revive a lost color pattern of the Wolf Sable it seems. Likely, the fast track show breeders never took notice or felt it was ugly and not worth the testing that went into his International Championship.
See if you can recognize the a^w wolf sable in this site. It has been said, that at one time all canines had this allele now only a few breeds express this phenotype.
Not a Border Collie, nor a Shetland Sheepdog…they have accepted the bi -black. The Standard of the Collie eliminated these genotype from Show Ring but accepted a White Merle and Harlequin? Learn from the mistakes. Check out the health issues that face the Herding breeds. Have you not looked at the foundations of your breed history. Can you not see the similar foundation? Let us not forget the Aussi. Dilutions …blood problems, eye problems, hearing problems. One must realize we are not changing for the newest green, blue or red in our wardrobe or color scheme of our living room.
Let us take for example a red or pure for sable collie or even a Pom with a merle gene not expressed or unknown to be a lethal combination by uneducated breeder.
http://www.thedogplace.org/GENETICS/Heredity-Darwin-1104_Coats.asp
One should also consider that black and tan dogs are also known now to be a mutation caused by SINE.
I am super confused. What should we be looking for on that site? The article you linked to is very basic, and I didn’t see any pictures of dogs or anything about coat color genetics.
Shelties have a recessive black. Border Collies have a dominant black. Presumably there used to be black and white Rough Collies, but at a guess I would think they had a dominant black, since it would be easier to select against than a recessive black–however, I don’t know enough about their background to know for sure.
Also, where do you get the information that tricolor is a mutation caused by SINE? In what breed?
All canines with a few exceptions are the same , but through breeder selection we have eliminated not only some coat color patterns. types ( example there was a smooth sheltie). Yes, the Sheltie has a bi-black which comes from A Locus. The tri allele in this locus was recently discovered to be from a SINE locus that occurred a long time ago. The a/y is fawn and sable which requires a recessive gene k/y to express.
The a/w is wolf sable seemingly not found today in many breeds including the Collie, and the Sheltie. Please be patient for links and more information …getting use to Windows 8.
Nora these may end your confusion. It is important that other breeds do not make the same historical mistakes my breed did. Note that the Sheltie is all about the Agouti Locus and its alleles just like the gene pool in rough and smooth collies.
Note that both breeds have DM and one there is no marker and under study at Clemson.
http://sheltie-hair.blogspot.com/2008/10/shetland-sheepdog-coat-color-genetics.html
http://www.mastamariners.com/border_collie_colours_page.html
http://www.healthgene.com/canine-coat-color-testing/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21846741
There is some confusing use of terminology here. Agouti is the *location* for the mutation for black-and-tan, and SINE (Short Interspersed Elements) is the *kind* of mutation that it is.
I believe the full paper on the identification of the causative mutation for the ordinary type of black-and-tan is free access. (I have a subscription to the journal so I cannot always tell if I can see it for that reason, or if it is publicly accessible.)
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/102/Suppl_1/S11.long
Kathy, I certainly believe in the importance of retaining diversity, but I also believe it is important to assess the real implications of the very specific alterations involved in the different color mutations. Your comments seem to imply that by their nature things like dilutions, or recessives, or SINE insertions, are detrimental. I am, as I noted in a previous comment, someone who primarily deals with equine genetics. What I have seen is entire breeds that were compromised by a desire to remove color mutations, often to remove the temptation for “color breeding”, without any recognition that eliminating individuals based on color is in itself color breeding. To make matters worse, the choices to do this have often been based on only a sketchy understanding of the actual mutations and their impact on the health of the animals.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Leslie, agreed–I don’t think recessives are harmful in and of themselves. And I’ve never seen a “cryptic” merle Sheltie that wasn’t clearly a merle (and everyone knew it–my bi-black male has several sable merles in his background that were registered as such). With Agility dogs, we worry more about structure (and early take-off problems) and consider color generally as secondary, though everyone has a preference.
That said, except for the breeders who deliberately make double merles to use in their breeding programs, or deliberately breed to double merles, (a practice which, I have a suspicion though no proof, has contributed to early takeoff problems in Shelties) there doesn’t seem to be an effort to make “fancy” or “different” colors or perpetuate the occasional weird color (sometimes you get, for instance, a dilute black dog who is all over steel grey). OTOH, there are LOTS of color variations in Border Collies, and I suspect (though once again, I have no proof) that some of those color variations come with issues. In my area there is a current fad for “Australian Red” Border Collies, and I have yet to see one excel at Agility. However, you never know.
Nora: Wishing to answer your concerns regarding the recessive ‘a’ of the Agouti locus. The bi black and bi blue in Shetland Sheepdog are likely the best choice your Breed Club ever made to put in the Standard in my opinion.
A true color headed white apparently although determined to be SINE/MITF doubled in study in collies the mixture of bi-blue in Shetland Sheepdogs has not been accepted as well? Unfortunately, the Rough and Smooth Collie is not so fortunate.
I think what she’s driving at is: 1) in order to get some of these more “exotic” colors, certain questionable breeding practices take place (in fairness, trying to eliminate them do indeed cause the same problems; 2) the dilutions may come with some of their own issues; this briefly mentions a good case in point:
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/range/toxicplants_horses/Equine%20Factors.html
There does seem to be a correlation between lighter color/high white and skin problems — this may be a reason why a lot of people want to avoid them (as the owner of a blue eyed, grey paint with a lot of pink skin I can attest to needing to take extra precautions to avoid sunburn and irritation of the skin around the eyes…and yes, I truly do wish said horse was a nice bay or dun with no spots/high white, and dark eyes, and if we ever bred her it would be to a horse of that sort of color in hopes to get away from it — she’s a nice horse, and no good one is a bad color…but some colors are less desireable for very pragmatic reasons than others).
The more mundane colors with corresponding dark skin underneath do seem to be a lot less prone to skin problems…plus they’re just a lot less maintenance!
It is a shame they did not source that claim. Do you have a link?
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
They had a resources and citations link at the bottom of the page:
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/range/toxicplants_horses/Citations%20&%20Resources.html
My own experiences are antecdotal to be sure, but I am having to live with a light skinned horse.
So now you confuse me. You are not aware of Shetland Sheepdog having recorded in historical pedigrees four double dilutes in its history foundations? http://www.shadowhillshelties.com/shelties/boys/powder.html
Kathy, there are more than 4, and I am not a fan. What I said was OUTSIDE of that, there doesn’t seem to be an effort to make “fancy” colors or perpetuate the occasional weird mutation. Partly because Shelties as such have never really been a working breed, color choices are quite limited–sable, tricolor, bicolor, blue merle, bi-blue. Most Conformation breeders avoid sable merle because blue-eyed sables can’t be shown, and washed-out sable is a fault as well. Color-headed whites aren’t allowed in AKC conformation as they are in Collies, so they have to strike a balance between “flashy” (lots of white) and not TOO flashy (more than 50% white). Which is not to say that there aren’t plenty of things to dislike in Sheltie breeding (the aforementioned use of double merles, for instance). It’s just that the standard is pretty restrictive about color.
Nora many collie breeders have also bred Shetland Sheepdog for decades. One first mentor who taught me so much was a Life Time Member of the Shetland Sheepdog Club. So do have more than casual knowledge of Shetland Sheepdogs. I read investigative reporting some time ago by the Club that findings reveal that all blue merles imported into the United States were Collie and Shetland Sheepdogs mixes for instance. Yes, this was quite Pro Active because the Sheltie has so many beautiful dark sables.
I agree the sable merle is not in the Collie standard but it does not mean they have for decades been show and won Champions. Once champions especially if they have taken Best of Breed breeders flock to bred to a champion.
Indeed as previously stated the Shetland Sheepdog Breed Club with few exceptions has kept to the standard. I begged to differ with you regarding Shetland Sheepdogs never used for Herding.
The Shetland Sheepdog, since becoming formally established as a breed (1908), has not been bred or selected for its herding ability. However, its predecessors were used to work a variety of livestock in the rugged, rocky landscape of the Shetland Islands. Much has been written about the history of the breed standard as it evolved, but little is mentioned about the small working ancestors. These dogs behind the breed were well suited for working in the harsh environment on little food, and were frequently left alone to guard, as well as gather in the strays.
It is only r size and temperament led them to be accepted as yard and house dogs in addition to their usefulness with all types of livestock from chicken to cattle. I found scattered through literature stories of Shelties working on ranches since they were first imported into the United States. Now more recent popularization as herding as a sport, there are many Shelties currently working on ranches and competing at herding trials.from my readings.
Because I have been following this Blog site which encourages the open mind to science. Among many topics have continued to investigate pedigree and genetic research on varies topics and breeds.
See this site:
http://dpca.org/BreedEd/index.php/articles/44-history/381-albinism-science
You might as well just search topic of “Albinistic syndrome”. Because classical albinos are tyrosinase negative while “partial are tyroisinase positive there are many health problems that scientific data is revealing accompany the albinistic syndrome . “Albinism is a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body in both humans and dogs.
Your linked site does not reflect the most current science on the “white” Dobermans. The causative mutation was identified last fall, and it was not a TYR mutation, but a mutation to what we used to call MATP. A similar mutation in horses is responsible for palomino.
I did a series of posts on my own blog about “albino” dogs, and one that focused on white Dobermans and some of the erroneous ideas about Sheba in particular. It was relevant to topics my own blog covers because the organization you linked to has overlooked a fact about recessive colors that is pretty common. The first time you see an animal with a recessive color, that animal is *not* the founder. That is, once you have one you can see, it’s a bit late to close the barn door. 😉
http://equinetapestry.com/2014/01/more-albino-dogs/
(You can follow that conversation back to see some posts about color line founders, and also a post translating dog color terms for my readers, who are primarily horse people. There are also posts after it about the “Cornaz” albinos that are found in some of the Asian dog breeds.)
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Now what is the TYR mutation? Thiink covered this one with the Tyrosinase negative and positive did I not?
TYR = tyrosinase. It was a different kind of mutation than the one that was predicted by the author you linked.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Lesli, has the cream in Dobermans been definitely decided to be albino? I don’t know a whole lot about this, but always supposed that albino animals also have unpigmented eyes, so a blue-eyed dog would not be albino?
I think part of the problem is that different breeds have different recessives which, presumably, act differently on other body functions? For instance, there is certainly no sign that heath problems are linked to recessive black in Shelties nor to white factoring (at least to a single dose, and I have not HEARD that CHW Shelties–those with two doses of white factoring–are more prone to health problems, even though from what I can tell, white factoring IS recessive, or incompletely recessive). Merle is dominant, or incomplete dominant if you prefer, and IS associated with sight and hearing problems in all the breeds that have merle, at least in double merles (I think the jury is still out on whether merles that are not double merles have issues in that regard, but I know Chris has done a post on that).
Obviously, Border Collies have a dominant black, and a bewildering variety of colors ( was just looking at a Border Collie litter online in which one of the puppies is listed as “red merle sable”–uhhhhh, what?) I still can’t figure out what a sable Border Collie is, and what SHOULD be the difference between red, “Australian” red, and “lemon” other than gradations of color (which would all be called “sable” in Shelties).
And then the Doberman Lesli discusses in her post. Is that fawn color detrimental? Is the dog albino or not? Is it more like the the various dilute fawns in (for instance, since that’s the other breed I have done some reading up on) Italian Greyhounds? “They” generally say that ALL dilute dogs are prone to color-dilute alopecia, but in practice the only dogs I have seen with CDA are blue (and in any case, while CDA looks ugly it doesn’t seem to affect the dog’s quality of life, at least in IGs).
Whether or not the Dobermans are albinos depends on how you define the term, and as I noted in the linked post that varies in different animal fancies. Horsemen are quite adamant that an animal is not an albino unless the eyes are pink or red, which means their blue-eyed creams are not. Doberman fanciers will probably still insist on calling this albino, because of the emotions involved.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..“W” is for White-spotting
Actually Lesli “W” for white spotting does not address in my opinion through studies in horses or in canines until one grasp the concept parallels between horse coat colors and canines. When one mentions the Australian Red Border Collie this should be the thread on this Blog site in my opinion.
http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours
Now address the genotype of the Red Border Collie. Is it not the identical complex of genes?
Now does one find it interesting . Genetic testing will determine whether the horse is black based (E/e or E/E) or red?
If I am correct in dogs” When your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe
If you dog is brown the possible gene\otype are: bbEE bbEe
If your dog is cream, white apricot or red with a black nose your dog’s genotype BBee Bbee
If you dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose your dog’s genotype is bbee. This does not seem to matter does it be it horse or canine.
So getting back to color headed white collies and Shetland Sheepdogs and white spotting is necessary for comprehension of parallels to the dosage dependence of the color head white and difference between a white merle or double dilute? . This comprehension is important to Border Collies when one speaks of the Australian Red and White.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/lethalwhiteovero.php
http://www.horsetesting.com/splash.htm
http://www.horsetesting.com/DominantWhite.htm
http://www.horsetesting.com/equine.asp
Now the Canine:
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/Piebald-Parti.php
http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Canine/Canine-color/Canine-color-s-locus.html
You might find the connection of the importance of a Tyrosinase function in skin disease and eyes due to the biology of healthy organ function and developmemt?
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/TYR
BTW, I am sure this site has been posted before, but I really enjoy paging through it. IT’s the most comprehensive I’ve seen on dog coat color genetics.
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/index.htm
The Poodle provided the lion’s share of data for Genome Mapping Canine for genetic diversity I offer consideration this discussion on white and cream in Canines?
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/poodlecoatcolorswhiteandcream.html
Now that we understand there are different whites with all different terminology used for coat color in varies breeds lets begin to clear the smoke and mirrors and confusion.
https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/uploads/pdfs/Coat_Colour_E-Locus_Yellow_Red_Coat_Colour.pdf
https://www.animaldnadiagnostics.co.uk/uploads/pdfs/Coat_Colour_E-Locus_Yellow_Red_Coat_Colour.pdf
Now let us consider which should be the easiest Breed of Coat Colors with any patterning of white and why many Lab breeders are saying no to Silver Labs.
Just do not let varies breeds using these new terms for Lemon confuse the issue.
http://www.phantomlabradors.com/inherit.html
Now this is not a Herding Breed like the Labrador the Dachshund by the recessive ee that creates red combined with the merle gene has and does create cryptic merles. Our different breeds all belong to one large family. The Canine. Claims that the Dachshund is likely more diverse than the Poodle due only to varies coat textures while the Poodle due to its different sizes.
http://dachshundbreedcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/coat-and-colour.pdf
Now the Doberman is greating affected by the Bb and the Dd which in most breeds is considered to be a Dilution such as Black to gray when confronted with the recessive.
Although this genetic site has not updated with the TYR mutation findings. The D Locus is considered a Dilution Locus in most breeds. There are apparently just a few patterns of genes creating varies genetic and phenotype expression regardless of terminology. This leads varies breeds to be convinced that this color is unique in their breed.
http://www.healthgene.com/coat-color-test-doberman-pinscher/
Lesli: Horses and Canines whites seems now can draw parallels to white and disorders.
The Lethal White horse who is born with a digestive track gene deletion and unable to emit it’s waste. http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/white.html
Now the certainly without surgery the canine without an anus would also likely die from it’s own waste as well.
Yes, this is the same mutation (LWO) that we have been talking about at length throughout this thread. It is a mutation to EDNRB. It’s actually the only mutation documented for that gene in equines, though EDNRB is known to be involved in pigmentation in other animals. It also is involved in the development of the lower intestines, which is why this particular alteration is lethal. All of that is important, because it both explains why this happens and also why it happens with this *specific* pattern. You cannot just “draw parallels to white and disorders” unless you are willing to just toss out perfectly harmless things (thereby narrowing your gene pool) for no reason.
That is why is important to ask questions, rather than just react. That is why it is important to be clear about what is known and not known, and not conflate unrelated things like pigment-type switching genes, and dilution genes, and white patterning genes. The differences *matter*. Sloppy generalizations based on poorly sourced information are part of the problem facing the animal fancies – not the solution.
At this point, however, that is not a message that seems to be getting through in this forum. It really is a waste of everyone’s time to go around and around. Animal coloration is a complex subject, and getting more so with each passing year. Discoveries there can give breeders new tools for assessing their options. It would be a shame if the information was instead used by breeders to bash one another.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..The W20 Project
Lesli Kathman recently posted..The W20 Project
And what if the “poorly sourced information” is backing up the claim that high levels of white seems to be a factor in photosensitivity and propensity for skin cancer? Which yes, is an old wive’s tale, but it appears as though this old tale seems to have an element of truth.
Which isn’t bashing anybody — if you want to breed for high white, go ahead, hopefully the breeders know the implications of such and are going to manage their breeding program in such a way as to avoid complications, but if a breeder willingly breeds for it with a known lethal gene combo out there because they have to have it, then how is it bashing you if you decide to take the risk and then get called on it by others? And how is pointing any of this out and stating one’s opinion that this breeding for color (any color, but especially one that might set one’s animals up for health issues of some sort or another) seems a bit limiting itself a mark of narrow vision?
Which is more of a bane to the breed fancies?
[and by the way: I detest the term “breed fancy” — but that’s an argument for another day]
Narrow vision are they not blind in one eye and can’t see out of the other?
“None are so blind they fail to see….”
You bet science in my opinion from my research and studies pinpoints the weak immune systems which include cancer.
Laughing out Loud– Agree what is so fancy about bathing, cleaning up dog waste and bleach stains on one’s favorite pants. Whelping litters is not so glamorous either but the pleasure of seeing new life does make up for probably ten cents a hour labor return. Well, could get champions or become a Judge, and get one’s disciples for knowledge rendered to do all this for you. You know the term? Rights of Passage. “Earning your spurs”.
Lesli: You are quite correct it is time to share information with an open scientific mind to all new information.
Let us take Stationary night blindness that affects Appaloosa and Pinto horses. Now the diseases of TEB, GBED, HERDA, HYPP.
http://www.horsetesting.com/equine.asp
http://www.ipshr.com/Genetics.htm
Blind horses seems so. http://www.chalani.net/hce/genetics
It seems from Mice, Humans, Horses, and Canines Science is bridging the gasps once assumed to exist between species, disorders and disease.
http://jn.physiology.org/content/early/2014/02/28/jn.00558.2013
One must address new science of “Extensions of Mendelian Theory”
http://www.csun.edu/~cmalone/pdf360/CH04-1extensions.pdf
http://www.extramarks.com/creative/Projects/4a41e27ae04f902Genetic-04.pdf
Now read this study on the hairless:
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/b/ballardr/BIO%20184/BIO%20184%20Fall%202013/PP%20Presentations/Lecthttp://cinnamons-sirius.fr/sponenberg-inheritance%20harl%20color.pdfure%209/C04_Experimental.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21430/
You are correct time to start comprehending what one does not want to understand ..stop arguing. Breeding a lethal white horse is not possible because they die from their own waste. .
Lesli; Chris provides not arguments but venue of education from old breeding practices by embracing new scientific findings. He encourages breeders with challenges to support old breeding theory and practice to not only new scientific data facts but the results of such thinking and practices such as blindness, deaf, crippled, disorder, and disease. Agree
“Sloppy generalizations based on poorly sourced information are part of the problem facing the animal fancies – not the solution” Breeder Bashing boy is that a worn out term. So we know the defense this term when the Truth and Facts are revealed is Breeder Bashing? http://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/codeofsilence/
Nora would also like to point out not only has the Shetland Sheepdog’s history will reveal it was a herding dog. The Shetland Island was its origins but the parallel disease among Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs under continuing research at Clemson by Dr. Leigh Clark. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18336421
These two breeds have it the worse of other breeds listed in worse form with ulcerated lesions. Now what else is the common denominator here to be considered. Both have breeding history in show circles and so called top breeding kennels of ……Breeding double dilutes and double merle. It is just an observation.common denominator at this time.
Kathy, Shelties are derived from herding dogs, but I don’t believe that Shelties AS SUCH were ever used as working herding dogs. Also, the Collie crosses to fix type were relatively recent, and DM could easily have been introduced through those.
That said, I don’t see any evidence presented anywhere that researchers believe that DM is linked to color (and in fact most of the dogs and pictures of dogs I have seen with DM are sable dogs).
P.S. I know “double merle” and “double dilute” are often used interchangeably, but they SHOULD be two different things (I am not even sure there is such a thing as a “double dilute”). Dilute colors in Shelties are fairly rare and I don’t know of anyone who would breed for them (Border Collies ENTIRELY different story, as there are people who are breeding for “color”). Presumably the color genetics involved in dilute vs. merle are quite different.
Nora many believe in Shelties for decades that the Border Collies were used in breed development foundation. We know from recent research studies that the allegation that all blue merle imports of Shetland Sheepdogs were actually collie/Sheltie crosses. Likewise, published names of Double Dilutes strong in the foundation of current Shetland Sheepdogs in the US that was actually published by Breed Club representatives. Likewise, the crossing out into another apparently in more recent times genetically was discovered through genetic testing of Champion bloodlines. Well, yes– terminology can be quite trick, and individual interpretation. The head style changes to appear more like the Collie is quite well recorded. The size problems to met standard mixing a collie with a Sheltie for example.
. However, a double dilute is produced by a merle to merle breeding. Please do not fall into this trap in breeding program or purchasing your next dog. You need to recognize for decades until Border Wars Blog exposure well documented by Chris is the truth …the whole truth…and nothing but the truth. Double Dilutes are produced by merle to merle breeding. Why with all scientific documentation is this still be questioned? Because for generations photos of such breeding litter did not contain photos of the double dilute litter mates. I have even seen those adopted
throw away Border Collies partially blind and deaf in the past few years.
http://www.eyecareforanimals.com/animal-eye-conditions/canine/296-merle-gene.html This is not a breed ..the common denominator is the merle gene. Now are you looking at a sable or a sable merle. A merle is a merle be it blue merle or sable merle.
Abnormalties which is not breed specific issues.
Oh yes, there is such a thing even seen then recently in Border Collies who are adopted by folks that are deaf and if not totally bind very limited vision. The statement you are not sure there is such a thing as a double dilute has trapped more than one breeder. Surprise when it shows up in the whelping box. Now why would anyone think such a thing? Because for decades until recently photos of the litter phenotype double dilutes are excluded from the photo shot.
Kathy, I have known since I started researching Shelties in childhood (over 30 years now) that merle to merle breedings were dangerous. I believed what I read as a child that people just didn’t do it.
Yes, some refer to double merles as double dilutes. What *I* am saying is that merle and dilute, color genetics wise, are two different things. Lilac (for instance) in Border Collies is a dilution of red, but you could in theory have a lilac merle border collie.
Since Shelties AS SUCH have always been a “show” dog, dilutes have not been acceptable and are generally not bred. Merles ARE acceptable and ARE bred, and obviously some show breeders have and use double merles (not acceptable in the show ring) to get flashy merles (very acceptable in the show ring).
Nora: Agree that both in Shetland Sheepdogs and Collies might add Border Collies as well was known by Breeders of the Right Stuff. This was not in the best interest of health of the breed. However, the first time I saw a blind, deaf double dilute nursing a litter was a Shetland Sheepdog. This kennel was from a top champion bloodline in your breed.
Are we all guilty of guess o typing? The term double dilute in my opinion and studies only refers to the phenotype of possible 1/4 of the litter of merle to merle breeding. Agree again, the quest for “eye candy” -flash makes this very acceptable in the show ring. Now have you considered the problems of the Catahoula and the merle gene take the test and do not peak at the answers.
http://www.abneycatahoulas.com/issue_merle.php
See the double dilute Catahoula….read the health issues.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Genetics+of+double+merle+in+catahoula&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=P8pCU_jbBqzisATn9oD4Dg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=927&bih=619
Have you seen the harlequins within our breeds?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Genetics+of+harlequin+Shetland+Sheepdog&espv=210&es_sm
How about the harlequin Border Collie?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Genetics+of+harlequin+Border+Collies&espv=210&es_sm=93
Now the Rough and Smooth Collie images:
ttps://www.google.com/search?q=Genetics+of+the+harlequin+Rough+and+Smooth+Collie&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&
What good breeders knew then and what is going on now? Thank you Chris again and again.
Sorry Nora no disrespect: I begged to different with you. Although the origin of the breed is shrouded in mystery. No question the origin herding Shetland Sheepdog would not take Best of Breed at today’s Dog shows. The Little Sheltie foundations did come from Herding Dogs of the Shetland Island. They once were herding dogs, and some of Breed still breed and use the breed for this purpose. Now seen them in photos used to herd Turkeys for example.
http://sheltienation.com/sheltie-history/
The eye documentation on merle eye abnormal issues has been now categorized as
http://www.eyecareforanimals.com/animal-eye-conditions/canine/296-merle-gene.html
Nora the harlequin gene requires the merle gene to express as it is a modifier of the merle gene. It can be carried without any phenotype expression until the merle gene is present. We have read the extensive studies of the Great Dane regarding harlequin modifier and the health issues Chris exposed on this Blog. This modifier if carried without expression by both sire and dam of either being a merle? It is lethal and puppies die or could be born like the Great Dane found within this blog site archives. Basically one is playing Russian Roulette with all chambers loaded. I saw the first harlequin Smooth Collie take high placement at a Collie Nationals over five years ago.
Kathy, how do you know it was harlequin? Color-headed white dogs could appear to be harlequin, I suppose, but white factoring (piebald) and harlequin are not the same and do not appear on the same locus.
Nora this seems to be the 64 Million Dollar Question that those who bred for whites refuse to address. You know my Grandpappy did it my Pappy did it, so I am going to do it.
How does one by just phenotype expression recognize the difference between these dilution pattern expressions?
I look at this issue like spilling an entire bottle of bleach in the wash water on a pair of Jeans. You rinse and rinse …and dry those Jeans but when you wear them and bend over…the knees pop out..and the seat of the pants rip…and the zipper falls out. “Too Many dilution patterns and modifiers in the breeding pot.
Old terminology “White factored” large white collar. Some now understand a true color headed white is a double piebald not a double merle. A white merle – Yes this was added to bred registration of Collies over a decade ago. Ugh.
It remains the question who is responsible for justifying the white merle registration in Collies? Who should be accountable for Avalanche’s ROM status?
Now we could ask ourselves what happens when a double piebald gene is mated SINE/MITF doubled to a merle which is SINE/MITF.
Then we add the harlequin gene which is being carried recessively without phenotype expression? Remember the harlequin expresses as a lethal dominant. Two genes spells death.
So in this breeding the harlequin gene is able to express. What do you suppose would be he result of this mating?
Just in the last few days a litter was born to a sable merle colored headed white
dam that someone sent me photos. There were no colored headed whites in the litter but a litter of (old term mismarks). Great Danes call them merlekins. The color patterns on these puppies is muddled and not one puppy in my opinion is either breed quality or show quality without at least genetically DNA Color marking…and one puppy that might be a harlequin what a mess in my opinion as a breeder. .
Oh No we have another pattern to recognize that can pop up and be misidentified. Yep, but the experts state so far no double merle has expressed this color pattern as far that is known.
Tweed which is considered to be yet another modifier of the merle gene.
“Tweed can occur in any of the patterns shown on the merle page (with tan markings, white, brindle etc). However, interestingly, it has never been reported to occur on a double merle. It’s not at all certain why this is.”
Resource: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/harlequin.html
“A harlequin is HhMm in genotype with the gray of the merle genotype converted to white by the Hh genotype. Thus the Harlequin is predominantly a white dog with black torn patches, a merle is (hh Mm) a gray dog with black torn patches and a merlequin is a modified merle ( hh Mm tw tw). A harlequin with tw tw [“merliquin”]genotype is usually a “mixed” color [e.g. swirly-merle, harlie-merle or popcorn harl] with almost as much merle as black patches. Tw the non tweed allele is dominant.” And a TwTw Harlequin is the dog who will not produce these recessive “tweed” mismarks. Tweed produces a merling pattern with more variation in shades of patches and generally larger patches (or more larger patches).”
Now this in Aussies: http://www.ashgi.org/home-page/genetics-info/coat-color/dilute-color-and-dilution-spots
http://www.shalakoaussies.com/MerleTerms.html
Resource:
http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/89-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info/126-harlequin-coat-color-genetics-by-neil-o-sullivan-ph-d
Nora once needs to realize that just few years ago most dog people believed that the harlequin phenotype expression was the property of the Great Dane. Now we realize that the goal of good color headed white breeders was …limitation of body spots. Did anyone know then to check for the shape of those spots? Harlequin seems to produce raggy or lacy spotting while piebald or (white factoring) produces rounder spotting. Doubt this is a foolproof but can help.
How do I know the Collie was a harlequin. Because another champion was made from its making and fully disclosed on the internet. http://byluccollies.com/byluc/Harle.html
Likewise, scientific fact and discoveries not only can not support “Little theory” on the S locus with identification of only two recessives alleles s/i ..irish patterning and s/p piebald SINE/MITF. Science tells us now that in breeds such as our with color headed whites that they are “Dosage Dependent”.
So they are CALLING the dog a harlequin, but unless they have some kind of genetic proof, I don’t see it. Phenotypically, that dog does not look like a harlequin. I understand that as a merle modifier, the harlequin gene modifies the merle patches such that they are white, so that all that is left are the black body spots–but that dog certainly looks like a blue merle with a lot of white and a few big black body spots. There is definitely blue on the dog, though, unless that picture is completely wrong.
Here’s a similarly-marked blue merle sheltie:
http://www.belmarkshelties.com/cheree.htm
TONS of blue Shelties out there with significant black spotting. It’s considered “flashy.” And a lot of them have a double merle ancestor. I have a bi-blue Sheltie myself with a “sleeve”–his right foreleg, from the top of the shoulder to nearly the tips of his toes, is black. And he has a double merle a few generations back in his pedigree, I am sorry to say.
Yes, that is what they are calling it, which probably is not helpful since it appears to be an unrelated modifier of merle. Visually they dogs do look like they have more residual pigment in the non-black areas than a traditional harlequin. Harlequins do sometimes get merle patches, as if the merle “leaked” back into the white color, but the “harlequin” Collies I have seen have more silvering than just a patch or two.
One of the challenges those of us involved in equine color research face is that we do not have enough names for the large number of patterns that are being discovered. There are only so many ways to say “spotted”. 🙂 But there is real value in giving separate things separate names. Obviously it easier to communicate with one another, but it also avoids witch hunts where entire gene variants are swept from a population because they are mistaken for something else.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
One of the useful practices in the equine color genetics field is the use of the term “classic” for the original form of a pattern that is later found to have multiple variants, especially when one of them is different in some meaningful way. So Great Danes could be said to have the “Classic Harlequin” pattern, which would make it clear that this was the original pattern discussed in older papers, as distinct from whatever later “harlequins” are discovered.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
Lesli, I think it’s incumbent upon breeders to make a distinction, since Harlequin is a merle modifier (and since some argue that a double dose of Harlequin is just as potentially lethal as a double dose of Merle). A color-headed white dog with large body spots is going to look like a Harlequin, but the dog is piebald and(as far as we know) only got a double dose of white factoring.
I’ve been considering breeding my tricolor, bi-factored, white-factored Sheltie bitch to a bi-blue white factored male (it would be an outcross Sheltie-wise with COI at about 2%). That creates the possibility of color-headed white dogs in blue, black, or tri. I am still not sure of the advisability of all that white, but if you throw into the mix the idea that I might be getting HARLEQUIN instead of PIEBALD, I get a little more concerned.
I suppose the idea of Harlequin is cool to these Collie breeders, but I wish they wouldn’t throw the term around without considering what it might actually mean for color genetics (plus they really ought to take a look at some Shelties, who often have these big black body spots–non-Merle CHW Shelties can have them too, but since CHW Shelties are not allowed in the AKC conformation ring, likely Collie breeders don’t see them.)
Nora right again? Kudos!! As far as I know studied, observed of the health issues that through scientific studies and findings with the problems of this genetic type for now 14 years following genetic discoveries and markers. A true white Collie was double white factored or today a double piebald with as UC Davis states “Dosage Dependent”. The white merle is likely nothing more than a cryptic double dilute genetically or at least only carriers of the health issues of a double dilute. However, how do we guessotype those merles coming out of merle to merle breeding? How do we know without genetic DNA markers the mutations that have likely occurred? Is one of these mutations picking up the dominant lethal modifier of the merle gene?
I agree that is unfortunate that the term is being used, because it does muddy the water – and Kathy’s comments illustrate so well. It is hard enough for many people to develop the kind of eye needed to separate out similar phenotypes (like extreme piebald and harlequin), but the lack of a common language makes it harder still.
We have been trying to get everyone on the same page regarding color terminology in the equine community for decades now, and a lot of progress has been made, but the dog community is different in a lot of ways. To my knowledge there has not been an English language book on coat color genetics in dogs written for the lay person since Winge’s book in 1950 and Little’s book in 1957. A decent book, with good quality photos, can go a long way towards getting at least the basic information out there and nudging everyone into a more universal set of terms. There also appears to be less communication between the research community and breeders, though to be fair that a problem that plagues the world of horse color, too.
And I wouldn’t blame any breeder for being wary of breeding extreme piebald variations, when so little is yet known about the different kinds of white patterning in dogs – and when so many appear to be on MITF, which has a connection to deafness in multiple species. Whether deafness is also an issue with whatever it is that is removing some of the color on the “harlequin” Collies depends on where that mutation is found, and what processes are involved with that particular site.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
Lesi It takes no crystal ball to realize the number one problem in breeder new education in dogs, horses, cattle, .is lay terminology comprehension especially regarding color patterns and health issue common denominator that go far beyond just deaf and eye issues.
It is difficult for folks to realize that it is selective breeding that creates phenotype differences among breeds pigmentation or lack thereof comes from same Locus such as A Locus in fawn and sable a^y allele in Collies and Great Danes. The lack of a Universal terminology keeps too many in the dark and debating unproductive issues.
Harlequin does have a marker and has been identified by Dr. Leigh Clark in Collies as well. Are you suggesting that the harlequin gene in Collies is different than the one she found in the Great Dane? The merle gene has always been considered a Semi-dominant lethal.
The harlequin gene is identified as a Dominant lethal merle modifier? .
Lesi we are in full agreement the problems facing adopting new scientific facts that have replaced old breeding theory. Agree the terminology and language of even folks such as Optigen on DNA testing results has been misinterpreted for normal eyed non carriers with Collie breeders seeking and breeding normal eyed non carriers. Comprehension
We know what, when, where and how of the harlequin gene It has been identified and Dr. Leigh Clark of Clemson takes the honors and provides identification for breeders. The piebald gene (white factoring) has been identified and marker. Like Nora states the study was complete in 2009 …color head whites in two families of Collies identifies that as Double Piebalds. .http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S66.full
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/Piebald-Parti.php
You need to realize that any dog with a harlequin gene needs a merle gene to express. This makes identification of harlequin carriers quite cryptic.
You must read to breed. No one seems to be going to hand all this information out on a silver platter and spoon feed us.
Reading is fine, but it does not do a whole lot of good if what is read is not comprehended.
I am not sure how to make this any more clear. The harlequin variant in Collies is *not* the same mutation that is found in Great Danes. I am not suggesting that; I am simply repeating the results reported by Dr. Clark. It is – as I have already said – a de novo mutation. New. That means NEW. Not the existing one. Something different. What is more, she has indicated that the Collies do not have a mutation to PSMB7, which is the site for the mutation in Great Danes.
I do not know how to be any more plain. It looks remarkably similar, but it is not the same. Not the same mutation, not the same gene being mutated.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
So now you suggest to let the responsibility fall on breeders who chose not to mix their color headed whites with white merles to bear the burden to find the harlequin modifier? How many of these collie breeders have put their money where there mouth is and tested for even PRA or CEA or DM test to clarify and document claim?
I would be most willing to read proof of this claim. Please provide. Can you even provide a visual prospective? I can not make it any clearer.
information of no risk to known health issue of this fashion and fad? Harlequin phenotype is well recorded in Collie history and what must have been last import in 1953. Well, if you have done your history you would know recordings of a term called Tortoise. It was a reference to merle. Now we realize it could have been Tweed.
I suggest and maintain even thou mutation might be different gene there is no documentation of data with photos of entire litters.the complex nature of different color patterns it does not produce just different health issues? Now that is a comprehension input that I do not see in either quantitive or qualitative data writing. What folks like Nora and others just breed to Collies that playing with this mutation created cryptic carriers that forces us to bear the brunt of testing and paying for the test?
Do you realize how many types of mutations and names of mutation genes for PRA alone? I do not know how to make myself anymore clear either.
From Dr. Clark:
http://www.pastorescozzese.com/allevare/harlequin_e.htm
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
Lesli: You seem to have completely ignored this statement as you make this Offical Proclamation. Quoting Dr. Clark for comprehension: :
“In all cases, genetic testing was carried out to confirm that dogs were heterozygous merles (i.e., not double merles) and neither piebald, nor carriers for piebald.” Are you teaching dogmatic theology here in dog breeding protocol?
This is the very issue that I attempted to present for basic comprehension of the Collie gene pool. Who bought stock for all the testing for piebald marker and merle gene marker now that Wyndlair Avalanche genes have spread into the Collie genepool? Is this the official kiss off or is it Salute to the Collie Standard and Lassie?
Now have you actually looked up the term “De nova” as you quote and interpret the definition in this blog>?
Reading is good better and everyone better do some more before adopting Lesli definition.
http://massgenomics.org/2012/08/de-novo-mutations-and-human-disease.html
Dr. Leigh Clark has made great accomplishments do not tarnish her words. Please
I see no documentation of genetic testing available for authentication to support “denova” regarding CEA, PRA, MDR1, VwD 2, lethal gray, or organ dysfunction, bone, blood, neurological and heart issues.. You see there have been many questionable reports of collies as such odd health heart mutations as beating backwards? We are not playing Barbie Dolls here and dressing up Ken and Barbie. The fertility and reproduction implications are despicable and detestable facing the next generation of Collie dog breeders not to mention the cost of genetic testing by embumbrance with breeding ethics, fair play and true guardianship of the breed.
or are we to discover a entirely new series of mutations that likely could completely destroy the breed.
Is this a diliberate concept for people who are daydreaming about their next Champion and Matador stud dog?
Resource: http://massgenomics.org/2012/08/de-novo-mutations-and-human-disease.html
” Diseases Linked to de novo Mutations
De novo mutations tend to be more deleterious than inherited variation because they haven’t undergone the same level of evolutionary selection. This fact, combined with the observation that they occur with some appreciable frequency, makes de novo mutation an an intriguing explanation for sporadic diseases. In support of this notion, recent family-based exome sequencing studies have implicated de novo mutations in a number of rare syndromes.
Gene Product Disorder
SETBP1 SET binding protein 1 Schinzel-Giedion syndrome (mental retardation and neurodegeneration).
MLL2 Mixed-lineage leukemia 2 Kabuki syndrome (intellectual disability and congenital anomalies).
ASXL1 Additional sex-like combs 1 Borhing-Opitz syndrome (severe intellectual disability and congenital malformations.
ANKRD11. Ankyrin repeat domain 11 KBG syndrome (facial/skeletal malformations and developmental delay).
CHD7. Chromodomain helicase DNA binding protein 7 CHARGE syndrome (birth defects, heart defects, breathing problems).
ACTB/ACTG1 Actin beta / actin gamma 1 Baraitser-Winter syndrome (brain malformation).
AKT1 V-akt murine thymoma viral oncogene homolog 1 Proteus syndrome (skin overgrowth and atypical bone development). “
Nora I totally sympathize with the deliberate confusion of what we have seen in phenotype with our Color headed whites and flashy blue merles in Shetland Sheepdogs and Collies.
. Now if you look at the Judging results currently going on at the Collie Nationals. You will see Applevalley Royal Salute…
http://www.collieclubofamerica.org/national_2014/results.html
Now why would Deep River Collies be so excited that Dr. Leigh Clark researcher and founder of Merle gene and harlequin modifier be offering a free seminar on Thursday announcing she is “revealing secrets” DO NOT MISS IT?
Let us please view the pedigree of Ch. Applevalley Harlequin Romance. You need not be in the breed. http://www.julianina.com/pedigree/collie/apple-valley-harlequin-romance
http://byluccollies.com/byluc/Harle.html I have been following this since 2006.
Nora finally another Collie breeder/Shetland Sheepdog breeder who recognizes our common denominators. I have been owned by the Collie but the last 14 years have spent majority of my time keeping up with genetic marker findings.. Attempting to follow all research for health issues in my breed. Knowing the Shetland was afflicted worse than Collie in numbers Dermatomyositis which afflicted our entire first champion line breeding with second breeding producing a PRA carrier. The common denominator in our breeds of thyroid disease. Discussions with Shetland Sheepdog breeders and exhibitors was better than going to a Health Seminar for Collies.
I know the feeling realizing the discovery that a double merle or dilute breeding found in our pedigree too close for comfort. This is why now all the DNA testing looking for carriers…OF what? CEA, PRA, MDR1, Lethal Gray, VwD2, DM, thryoid testing, heart checks, This makes out crossing quite expensive and stressful.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/colliehealthgrants/conversations/topics/67?var=1
http://www.clemsoncaninegenetics.com/drleighanneclark.htm
http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/0792.html
Nora once needs to realize that just few years ago most dog people believed that the harlequin phenotype expression was the property of the Great Dane. Now we realize that the goal of good color headed white breeders was …limitation of body spots. Did anyone know then to check for the shape of those spots? Harlequin seems to produce raggy or lacy spotting while piebald or (white factoring) produces rounder spotting. Doubt this is a foolproof but can help.
How do I know the Collie was a harlequin. Because another champion was made from its making and fully disclosed on the internet. http://byluccollies.com/byluc/Harle.html
http://byluccollies.com/byluc/Harle.html
Likewise, scientific fact and discoveries not only can not support “Little theory” on the S locus with identification of only two recessives alleles s/i ..irish patterning and s/p piebald SINE/MITF. Science tells us now that in breeds such as our with color headed whites that they are “Dosage Dependent”. The founder of the merle gene and marker plus the harlequin modifier states there are likely other modifiers of the merle gene.
The reaction of Great Dane breeders to the scientific findings just about the same as our breeds. Some just pulled the covers over their heads.
At the moment, the de novo harlequin mutation in Collies has not identified at a molecular level, but it is not at PSMB7. So while the visual effect is similar, there is no way to know if it is a homozygous lethal. Not all things that look the same have the same issues. That is particularly true if the mutation occurred in genes that govern different developmental processes. But even mutations to the same gene not always have the same issues, even when they are visually similar.
As I said before, when talking about pigmentation in animals, words matter. So does asking questions. It is not enough to say, “dilution” (or harlequin, or spotting). What KIND of dilution/spotting/patterning? Where was the specific mutation? What kind of mutation was it? What mechanism is producing the color we see? If there is an associated defect, WHY is is associated? Is it linked, or is the mutation causative? If it is causative, how long has it been in the population? Could it have conferred an unseen benefit to have survived? ALL of these things need to be asked in order to make intelligent breeding decisions.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
Well Lesli the same researcher that identified the gene and found the marker has identified it in Collies. It likewise states the merle gene must be present for the harlequin modifier to express.
I only agree to a point due to what is know how mutation are created. How much due you understand about insertion process at the MITF? Do you understand SINE insertions? Have you experienced and familiar with the eye abnormalities, or the organ dysfunctions of proteins, enemyzes, and acids that are all common denominators? How dilutions take part in organ malfunctions? Examples:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Genetics+of+Dilution+effects+on+enzymes+production+in+Dogs
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132193/
http://www.efpia.eu/diseases/70/59/Inherited-Metabolic-Disorders
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/inherited-metabolic-disorder-types-and-treatments
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996878/
In fact, this same Researchers speaks at the Collie National in a seminar Thursday. The findings state sire and dam both carriers for the harlequin merle modifier causes offspring to die uterine development. This is complex but it all relates in health issues to proteins, enzymes, and acids.
Nora are you suggesting that we ignore scientific fact in addressing the harlequin gene lethal dominant nature? Is this honestly an ethical approach to breeding?
http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/89-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info/127-the-harlequin-family-of-dogs-harls-merles-blacks-whites-more
I am not sure who you are directing your comments to, but I have not read anyone here suggesting that anything about the nature of genes be ignored. For my part, I want the subject understood. So not only am I not suggesting that the nature of genes be ignored, I am advocating that they not be *assumed*. But then I approach the topic as an educator, not as a polemist.
The fact is that you do not know if the merle modifier in Collies IS lethal. It may be, or it may be harmless. That cannot be known for certain until the causative mutation is identified. (Perhaps that is why a breeder is excited about the opportunity to hear Dr. Clark speak, because it has been found.) Getting up in arms about the breeders utilizing “harlequin” Collies before anything is known – beyond the fact that the mutation is unrelated to the traditional harlequin – is not especially helpful.
I would also stress that you are talking about two very different situations with merle and with harlequin. Merle is not uniformly lethal, but horribly damaging. The puppies are born and often live, but with varying defects – many quite severe. Double-merle dogs often have a reduced quality of life. For many breeders (all species), those kinds of mutations carry some of the biggest ethical implications because they cause suffering.
Harlequin, on the other hand, is a classic embryonic lethal. The fetus is not viable and is lost early in development. Because these kinds of lethals do not produce a dead puppy (or in my line of research, foals), the trait is often not even known to be lethal until someone runs the numbers and discovered the ratios are off. With the advent of testing in the last decade or so, the absence of homozygotes in the testing is how that is usually determined. (In some cases, what is known about a particular gene and the developmental pathways involved can allow predictions as well.)
Your posts here don’t give me a lot of optimism that nuances like this matter to you, but they are a factor in how many animal breeders view lethal genes. Embryonic lethals, because they do not result in live offspring, but usually manifest as reduced litter sizes (or for single-birth animals like horses, lower conception rates), are often seen as a gray area compared to something like merle x merle. Obviously for someone who believes life begins at conception, that is a distinction with no difference, because it is still “death”, but for others there is a difference.
Lesli Kathman recently posted..A heritable form of brindle discovered in horses
You see replies of Scientific Research study and discovery FACT as polemic a contentious argument that is intended to establish the truth of a specific understanding and the falsity of the contrary position? Well, approaching this topic as a teacher you must realize that the comprehension level of child that wants to quit school in the first grade. This is because he or she already knows it all.
What are you suggesting here? Are you suggesting breeders such as Nora ignore the presence of Harlequin gene non exclusive to the Great Dane years of study and remedy to their bloodlines? Are you suggesting she ignore new knowledge of the S Locus? Are you suggesting the Winge theory and that scientific studies could not support Little’s theory? Are you suggesting that scientifc discovery and markers not be used as a new breeding tool to those breeders who do not wish to produce gross bone issues, blood diseases, heart and neurological disorders? Do you object to providing her with ability to Read before she breeds? Do you object to her choices?
Sorry Nora it was not you that seemingly makes this suggestion.
One might find it helpful to understand Clarenece Little theory on the S locus to scientific findings regarding difference in theory of Ojvind Winge 1950- regarding the Harlequin gene/modifier of the merle gene.
https://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html
In my opinion and from my studies and as far as I know …take this quote to say it for me regarding harlequins resource: http://www.chromadane.com/index.php/en/chromalinx/89-great-dane-specific-coat-color-info/127-the-harlequin-family-of-dogs-harls-m
“There is NO secret recipe involving merles or other mismarked dogs. All this has been done time & again, so PLEASE don’t think there is ANY need to try out odd combinations to “see what you get” or prove some elusive point. This is simply not an ethical approach to breeding: you do not care for the breed by “reinventing the wheel” and having litters to learn what has already been discovered, seen & written about. At the end of this article is presented an argument about theories of the harlequin variant. That does NOT mean that the basics are not understood, nor do these arguments have much to do with the practicalities of breeding harlequins. Read before you breed, please, and follow the standard “
Lesli: You might find this site on genetic coat color in dogs helpful. I find it quite interesting that old rules in breeding protocol told the dog breeder …Never mix a yellow/black brindle with a red/black brindle. Now wonder how that applies to horses? Striping on hooves etc.have been quite well documented in horse breeding. Zebra stripes some called the varies markings.
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/brindle.html
Lesli you might find these links helpful if your direct your attention to Genetic knowledge and identification with UC Davis on horses.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolor.php
Hopefully you find this helpful
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html
http://www.jenniferhoffman.net/horse/horse-color-genetics.html
Read and wonder what is next: See the epilespy Border Collie Breeders?
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=de+novo+mutations&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=GFNJU8y4KarSsAT_2oHwDA&ved=0CCkQgQMwAA
Chris and Craig do you not see? Well how could you? The AKC Delegates which for decades were two. One is now deceased. The other remaining AKC Delegate is suffering advanced years and not enjoying good health as far as I know. Will now this Retirement from handlers and breeders turn to a new AKC career position?
Hello All,
I’m not a dog breeder, just a pet owner, but I have found the discussion on this site very interesting. I have a few questions for you all.
I have a golden retriever/poodle/Australian Shepard mix (her dad was a blue merle aussie and I was told he was a pure breed). She has markings similar to a red merle. Would she be considered a true merle? And since she is a mix of several breeds would it be a problem if she had puppies with another merle colored dog? I’m not planning on breading her, I just wondering if the genetic issues were with pure breeds only.
> And since she is a mix of several breeds would it be a problem if she had puppies with another merle colored dog?
Yes, she would have the same chance of producing problematic double-merle puppies if she were bred to another merle colored dog of any breed. No two merle dogs, of any breed, should be bred together if you want to avoid double merle issues.
I thought this link might further help your reader Chris to best understand what she seemingly describes as a red merle which to the best of my understanding would be due to bb and the merle gene.
http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/merle.html
Chris: This kennel is not closed. They are just Judging Collies and breeding now.
http://www.colliesonline.com/ad_archive_2015/columbus_010315.html
Wow I must say I’m glad I came across your double merle posts. I knew of the dangers of breeding dogs like this but it’s pretty disappointing to see supposed “responsible” show breeders partaking in it. I’m looking to get my first dog at some point, been doing a ton of research for a couple years now, still not decided what breed im leaning towards…but I’m glad I came across your site. I think it’s good to get both sides of the story (I used to be under the impression that breeders could do no wrong…how naive I was)
As for the topic of this post I’m honestly flabbergasted. Especially breeding intentionally and using them as stud dogs? What the hell. This past year I’ve been looking into Collies. Wyndlair is one of the first things that comes up when searching for breeders and before reading your post I actually thought they were okay (at first glance, yikes!) Just a couple days ago I came across this:
http://www.colliesofdeepriver.com/home/past-present-future/our-present/the-boys/
Like…how is this okay? Am I taking crazy pills or something.
I am amazed that this link you provided contains repeated statement regarding Show champion breeders that no one dare openly question? Does this actually make any common sense to you. Don’t let them brow beat you just because you are a beginner. Just because you don’t know everything there is to know about genetics, biology, and whelping 10 or 20 litters yearly. If they can support this theory ..document it. “You can bred a blind deaf dog to a sighted dog and all offspring will be able to see and hear?” Is there any one out there that can document this? Can they state factual that the increase of polygenetic diseases are not based on creation of new mutation and deletion?
Why can’t they document. Ask yourself. Make them prove there is no connection for example to Dwarfism in some breeds and Microphthalmia.
Check out this link for example when it comes to the polygenetic nature of recessive mutations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/13/a-dog-born-without-eyes-sees-something-in-children-with-special-needs/
This Retriever is not only a Dwarf but has no eyes.
Chron I had not seen this link but comes as no surprise. Am not saying it is not horrifying, disgusting and reprehensible but it does seem someone is taking crazy pills or something does it not? If you check the archives this same Breeder argued with Christopher on the topic. I agree it does not seem real, but sadly it is all but sadly the reality of too many double merle breeders. Please a double blue merle …Hope you remain lucky in learning the strange world of manipulating the novice breeder.
OI
I understand it seems logical to look into a Breeder who are AKC Judges champion bloodlines. There seemingly has always been a new crop of new breeders to replace those who got the health issue wake up calls. Please note I have not seen the necessary Optigen testing and DNA for such diseases as DM, lethal gray, VwD2.
You got it they are attempting to tell you as an ignornant novice newcomer…they are right and evidence is wrong.
You think Wyndlair kennels is done breeding, think again. They were present at the Collie Club of America 2015 National Specialty and won the trophy for the top winning blue rough in 2014. Funny they list Tailesin Collies as a go to kennel for Wyndlair Bloodline, got that right. Miss Jenny Duhon Rutkas of Tailesin Collies was suspended from the parent club for 6 months for selling a blind dog to a pet home. You be she carries on the Wyndlair Bloodline!
You think Wyndlair kennels is done breeding, think again. They were present at the Collie Club of America 2015 National Specialty and won the trophy for the top winning blue rough in 2014. Funny they list Tailesin Collies as a go to kennel for Wyndlair Bloodline, got that right. Miss Jenny Duhon Rutkas of Tailesin Collies was suspended from the parent club for 6 months for selling a blind dog to a pet home. You bet she carries on the Wyndlair Bloodline!
I have been reading the posts on merle to merle breeding, and the comments and reactions by some of the breeders themselves. I’m finding it difficult to express how disturbing this is. And I just keep coming back to how terrible this is for these poor animals. And the breeders’ blind egos, no pun intended.
I’ve had one registered dog in my life, several years ago. A brindle Great Dane who lived to be twelve years old. Since then my dogs have been mixed breed shelter rescues. The two that I have now are over thirteen, and developing old age problems.
So we decided that when the time comes, we would like to get purebred dogs, two collies. We are interested in a tri-color and, you guessed it, a blue merle. Why the merle? Because I have always been taken with the color. Just as we find the tri’s beautiful too.
So the search for a breeder has started. We live in upstate NY and any recommended breeders of rough collies who don’t participate in this type of practice would be appreciated. Are there any? So far I keep finding pedigrees with kennel names that I thought had originally been okay, but they turn out to be in the breeding program of the kennels who do merle to merle breeding. We are not breeders. Sorting through pedigrees and looking at photos where provided to try to be sure we’re staying away from this practice is very difficult. Then there is the possibility that pedigrees have been altered. The web sites have beautiful pictures, and a lot of fluff and puff about their love of the breed. There is no mention that their breeding practices can produce dogs that are blind and deaf. And these same breeders are members of organizations that are suppose to protect and promote the breed.
These are going to be pets that we want to live a long time, without them being blind or deaf. Is it possible to find these types of collies that have not been bred merle to merle? Thank you for any information.
Gosh Jasper you hit the nail right on the head. Merle to Merle is not the worse in my opinion. Since the AKC registers double dilutes as white merles a blue merle from this type of breeding is likely to have extensive eye issues. You might wish to brief yourself with this information:
http://www.eyecareforanimals.com/animal-eye-conditions/canine/296-merle-gene.html
http://www.eyeclinicforanimals.org/wp-content/uploads/client-handouts/Merle%20Ocular%20Dysgenesis.pdf
Do not buy a Collie without an eye check from a Board Certified Ophthalmologist. Would be great if they would provide you with DNA copy of certificate of sire and dam.
Basically you might say they are breeding for the color pattern, because it is not a color it is a dilution in a black, tan and white (tri Collie) .
I do know a breeder that might have not a tri and a blue merle.
Many of her Collies are genetically tested. She bred to improve the breed and has great temperaments but would require to cross state lines. I personally love the blue merle but buying one can be extremely dangerous. Chris opened Pandora’s Box when he made it public about the dangers of merle and double merle breeding practices that to my knowledge goes back to at least the 30’s. .
Normally 25% of the litter in merle to merle breeding will be double merles, double dilutes, or white merles. Do not be confused all three terms mean the same thing. You likewise need to be careful don’t end up with a blue harlequin merle.
Have Chris give you my private phone number if no one in your area comes forward on this list. Honestly, I know of no Collie breeder in your area that could fill this order.
This is a copy of an e-mail I sent to two New York state breeders, one in Clay and the other in Deposit, NY. No reply from either.
“In another year or so, we will be in the market for 2 puppies. Preferably males, rough coats, a merle and a tri color from the same litter, brothers. We are not breeders, have no intention to show, and want these dogs as pets only. The 2 dogs we currently have (sisters) are over 13 years old and are experiencing increasing symptoms of old age, and we don’t know how much longer they are going to be with us.
I’ve been researching as much as possible merles. A major source of information for me has been eyecareforanimals.com. Do you participate in merle to merle breeding? I would really appreciate an answer. I understand many, many breeders do not have a problem with this, but we really do.
Thank you very much, I hope we hear back from you.”
Naïve as it may be, I was really hoping to hear back from these folks. Something, anything. Quite disappointing to say the least. And these may be “Breeders of Merit”, not sure. I just expected a little more professionalism.
We are willing to go a short distance out of state when the time comes. Any information you have would be appreciated.
First Jasper I sit her looking at a pastel of our Champion Blue Merle female of years ago now. She came from 30 generations blue merle to tri breedings back to back to back.
Her daughter my Tiffany and son Nicholas all blue merles out of tri’s.
I don’t understand you seem defensive because you want a blue merle but not from a merle to merle breeding? This is just stating to me you are not an uninformed.
NO we do not breed merle to merle or a double dilute, double merles or white merles. We concentrate on normal eyed non carriers, rcd1 clear,VwD clear, DM clear, and lethal gray clear ..good hips and well lay back shoulder…..good conformation and temperament. Yes, we have had Blue Merles but always out of a tri collie in the past but currently like you have not found anything acceptable for breeding since Avalanche a white registered merle hit breeding circles from Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, north to Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, Ohio and even Canada. .
It is so messed up there are blue merle harelequins? I will not give up Collies that are more expressive just for starters.
I don’t want to deal with something out of double and triple lethal.either. You do recognize that AKC registers white merle, so why not Breed Judges do merle to merle breeding as well? I understand everywhere you look you feel the door is being slammed in your face because you are informed.
We have seen one blue merle puppy properly bred and not inbred many months ago that breeder gave to her daughter. He should be getting to be a big boy now. I am hoping she will be breeding her tri female to him when his DNA testing is complete.
You need to understand there remains great conflict within breed club and even the health committee which involves surprising even respected researchers. I do not wish to get Christopher’s Blog site in the middle of the conflict by providing the link on the Collie Health site. If you are interested ask Chris for my private e-mail. Chris is not one to back down from comflict, but everyone deserves to pick their own fights.
Most but not all show breeders have and probably still do hang up if a person just ask about eye checks. I can’t image what happens if one ask for a blue merle not out of merle to merle breeding or double dilute. Fortunately, or unfortunately know who is ignoring genetic findings, data collection by CERF and proof positive what causes deafness in canines.
Kathy,
Would love to speak with you. I have not found a way to contact Chris directly. Please ask him for my phone number. Thanks, Jasper
It is not good to ask if they have done any DNA testing etiher..
Sorry Jasper just saw your post. Attempting to figure out a means not to post for the entire world to e-mail me?
They’re at it again. Back to their shady breeding practices, charging $1800-$2000 per pup with a $300 “premium” for “Blue Merles and Whites.” A PREMIUM for double-dilutes! Are you kidding me?!
Think it’s time for another op-ed on these people, because clearly they haven’t learned their lesson.
https://www.wyndlaircollies.com/collie-puppies/