Crufts 2014 is in full swing and the breed judging for the Border Collies has chosen a Best of Breed winner, Caleykiz Rhythm In Black, a six year old bitch born and bred in the UK. Like most of the show Border Collies in the USA, Rhythm in Black has a significant amount of Australian/New Zealand breeding behind her on both sides and this brings her Coefficient of Inbreeding up to a rather inbred 13%. The average COI(full, i.e. 30+generations) across ISDS Border Collies is under 8% and COI(6 generations) is just over 1%. The following are COI ~10 generations calculated using a public Border Collie pedigree database.
As you can see from the other distinguished Border Collies at Crufts 2014, high rates of inbreeding are not unusual in the show dogs this year. The Reserve Dog Challenge Certificate winner, Borderbay Olympic Games, a two year old dog from Italy whose roots are entirely Australian, scores an exceedingly high 25% coefficient of inbreeding. This is the equivalent of a Mother-Son or Father-Daughter breeding.
This pattern of exceedingly high coefficients of inbreeding is the continuation of a trend over at least the last 14 years.
Rosehurst Dirty Den, the last outcrossed Crufts Border Collie BOB
The only outcrossed Best of Breed winner was 2004’s Rosehurst Dirty Den whose father was 100% Australian breeding and whose mother was 100% British breeding with ISDS numbers (the ISDS is the working registry and few show dogs have ISDS numbers anymore, having been registered primarily with the KC).
Her Australian father, Borderfame Heart N Soul, was 16% inbred while her English mother, Thistlemist Molly The Mop was 7% inbred.
That’s a rather alarming pattern of breeder behavior, averaging rates higher than cousin-marriage and sometimes exceeding the closest possible one generation inbreeding rates of parent-to-child breeding. With so few breeders willing to really mix lines, even if it’s just UK show lines to Australian show lines, these high rates of inbreeding are not conducive to long term health and viability in the Border Collie gene pool.
Competition is the by-product of productive work, not its goal. A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.
– Ayn Rand
I wonder if winning at dog shows is really only possible with such detrimental levels of inbreeding or if it’s simply a byproduct of the culture and history of competition in agricultural improvement and kennel blindness. Breeders chasing after the easiest means to win, first importing Aus/NZ stock because they got a head start on the fancy breeding and then inbreeding the piss out of it, chasing popular sires, and repeating the customs of the eugenic fancy that were adopted decades ago based on expedience of type-setting and not of health or longevity. The industries which are based on actual productive work have long abandoned strict blood purity and such ruinous levels of inbreeding, but this sort of culture remains in dog breeding. A shame really, because in the end, pieces of nylon and even silver cups are not worth looting the legacy of your breed’s future.
Crufts Border Collie Best of Breed Inbreeding by Year (COI%)
2014 Caleykiz Rhythm In Black (UK) – 13%
2013 Eyes of the World Fairy Tale (BEL) – 20%
2012 Danari De Beers (AUS) – 19%
2011 Goytre Valentine Promise (UK)- 9%
2010 Bayshore’s British Connection Avatar (USA)- 13%
2009 Tonkory Move Over To Huntly (UK) – 13%
2008 Tonkory Illusion (UK) – 14%
2007 Pikkupaimenen Front Page News (FIN) – 14%
2006 Glentress Lord Othe Chat (AUS) – 26%
2005 Tonkory Palmerston At Fayken (UK) – 9%
2004 Rosehurst Dirty Den (UK) – 0%
2003 Sheltysham Chic Chandon Avec Caristan (UK) – 7%
2002 Borderfame Heart & Soul (AUS) – 16%
2001 Tamarsh Maggie May at Tolarock (UK) – 18%
2000 Dykebar Brigadoon (UK) – 10%
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Anton
Christopher
Lawrence Dillard
Lech
Stephanie
Essere
If I remember correctly, a dog could be registered with the ISDS by virtue of some sort of “work test”. Through this a Bearded Collie got an ISDS number. Is that still true? Or am I totally confused to begin with? 🙂
In this case the dog was not ROM’d into the ISDS registry, nor any of its close ancestors. The mother of Rosehurst Dirty Den is “Thistlemist Molly the Mop” who is probably KC registered.
Her parents (grandparents) are:
Robert the Sweep (Wull ISDS 114459 x Meg ISDS 118385)
and
Dekdays Polly at Thistlemist ISDS 188242 (Flint ISDS 163715 x Wanda ISDS 141401)
So she goes back to ISDS lines.
You are right though that there have been Bearded Collies registered with the ISDS. Turnbull’s Blue being the most notable.
I’ve always said, when the world comes to an end, there will be three things still alive: Crocs, roaches and Jeff Foxworthy’s relatives(due to inbreeding-LOL).
When you say average COI is 8% among ISDS dogs, is that mean, median, or some other measure? Very happy to see, want to make sure I’m accurate in any discussions I may have 😉
Susan, if you haven’t read the work of Teun v/d Dool yet, you need to. His entire site is just an excellent source of ISDS pedigree analysis.
Basically, he purchased every single ISDS stud book and scanned them all in and then ran population analysis software against the data. Start here:
http://www.bcdb.info/article1/WSN1c4.htm
That will explain exactly where I got the 8% from.
Great, thanks!
Excuse me, but I’m a little confused about something. Are these your dogs? Do you pay for their feed or vet bills?
Because you speak about them almost as though you do – as though their inbreeding co-efficients are of primary concern to people who do not own them. As though purebred dogs are not, by their very definition, a product of inbreeding.
More to the point – do the words “mind your own damned business” mean anything to you?
You clearly are confused. Do you not understand that these dogs are being presented at the World’s largest dog show in this breed’s country of origin under the banner that they are the superior offerings from which to build the next generation of Border Collies upon?
These aren’t people seeking privacy in their own back yards, they are seeking attention and wide exposure and control over the gene pool though this influence they are seeking. So your claims of “mind your own business” are asinine. These people are putting their dogs up to be judged. They’re ASKING for judgment and in fact are suggesting that these dogs are superior and worthy of being widely bred. So don’t be a dunce.
And dogs, let alone purebred dogs, are not by their very definition a product of inbreeding. Dogs were created through domestication. Landraces were created by similarity of purpose and behavior. Breeds were created by assembling stud books. Inbreeding is neither necessary nor sufficient in any segment of breed creation or propagation. It’s simply a breeding scheme that has been used for various purposes.
Chris as i wonder Kate’s message that these old theory breeding application protocols that create and created scientific documented health issues is no one business makes one want to throw their hands up.l
I understand since AKC nor many United States Breed Clubs fail to show leadership to the masses of breeders in my opinion. I understand if there were Education beyond Third World Country level in Breed Clubs and its membership:
Top Winners would display the testing for breeding quality. My message is if you want to keep the entire litter and all the mutations …
Be my quest. You are messing with the public and this brings Animal Activist to their feet. Most of the time to the innocent.
Chris: Your statements here are the real questions.
“I wonder if winning at dog shows is really only possible with such detrimental levels of inbreeding or if it’s simply a byproduct of the culture and history of competition in agricultural improvement and kennel blindness.? Breeders chasing after the easiest means to win,”
Adding Breeder’s chasing after high dollars for offspring and questionable power positions with the Breed Clubs and Registries? I wonder too.
How very , very cruel and unkind to publish this without having met with the dogs and the owners you are slating. Crufts is the top show in the world and you may , by your very unpleasant comments have ruined a young girls dream week. Shame on you sir ! I am Scottish and from the country of origin. Your BCS will not be as well bred as the majority of farm dogs and most of the show dogs here so who gave you the right ? Come to the UK and hold a seminar and give us your teachings to our faces !
How is it in any way cruel or unkind to publish an established FACT about the dogs that are being presented as superior breeding stock to shape the future of the breed? If this information is unduly harmful to any of the people who are putting these dogs up for ribbons, they have failed as both owners, breeders, and showers of purebred dogs.
What is the point of keeping a pedigree if you don’t bother LOOKING at it! That’s all I’ve done here. LOOKED at the pedigrees and carried out an established and widely used analysis of the breeding pattern that was used to create these dogs. If this is NEWS to anyone showing these dogs, they are incompetent. If you’re breeding dogs and are not making an analysis of how much inbreeding you are using, you’re unethical or stupid or both because you’re clearly not making a wise balance of risk versus reward.
Inbreeding increases risk, this is basic population genetics, and when you fail the dog is the one who suffers. So anyone who is blindly inbreeding with abandon and not using that in their calculus of ethics and efficacy is making dogs suffer needlessly.
And if you’re so high on Scottish bred dogs, how come most of the show dogs at Crufts are from Australian breeding!? I guess you think that they know more about sheep dogs and sheep there than you do?
very easy to sit behind your keyboard sir spouting off. If you are so pasionate come over to the country of origin and tell us all about it ! It is your timing which is appalling !
Sitting behind your keyboard, spouting off as well? Not sure why I need to visit when you can hear me just fine from here and I can hear you just fine. See, we have this thing called the internet, which you’re using right now! It’s really amazing, no?
My timing is horrible? It’s new and news-worthy right now. I’d say my timing is spot on.
It’s cheap shot criticism to post a dog’s COI as though it is in and of itself, indicative of something negative. It’s a favourite tactic of anti-purebred animal extremists, and latching onto their tactics to attack show dogs only harms everyone in dogdom.
The COI of these dogs is the business of their owners. If you wish to breed dogs with low COI, then do it. If you think your results are better, then prove it. Get in the ring and remove the high COi dogs from the gene pool in the old fashioned way – through superior results.
The COI *is* in and of itself a sign of something negative! It’s a measure of the degree of genetic diversity that has been lost by choosing to breed relatives instead of assortative mating methods. It’s a measure of how lazy the breeding has been in looking to bring out desired qualities. It’s a measure of how likely we are to have brought out recessives, including diseases and any new mutations over recent generations.
There are no dogs without genetic load. There are no perfectly clean gene pools.
And the issue of “anti-purebred animal extremists” is asinine and a logical fallacy. The issues I raise are ones we SHOULD be discussing as purebred breeders regardless of what AR lunatics think. Just because many AR types are authoritarian scumbags who want to ban all breeding and ownership does NOT mean we should cede any discussion of ethics and efficacy in dog breeding to them and pretend that we are all above reproach and can’t express genuine and relevant criticism lest the lunatics hear!
This is a stupid tactic because you’re essentially saying “keep your mouth shut and don’t talk about ethics lest our enemies use our own discussions against us!” Let them. It’s the only honest and moral path, and truly if the AR types are the only ones talking about genuine issues in dogs then the public will notice that purebred breeders have simply built a wall of silence and that means that we’re not responsive and not ethical… we’re just hiding behind the wall and stagnating.
No thanks! Being pro-active and open and willing to discuss faults and corruptions is the best means to fix them. Retreating and keeping quiet is what guilty people do when they won’t want to face the music. Again, no thanks!
As for getting in the ring and showing it, I’ll note that none of the performance BCs at Crufts have COIs nearly as high as 25% or even close! The only ones that even break double-digits are show-bred Border Collies. So when actual performance is on the line and not mere pageantry, highly inbred dogs are not the norm they are in the show ring.
You folks need to see what happens to COI when a breed has been in closed registry for 100 years with breeders with no imagination or knowledge how to breed except to follow the fashion and fad of five to ten year intervals. You can see pedigrees of champions with only three grandparents. Likewise see pedigrees when you reach the sixth generation of maybe six different dogs. If one can not learn history the destiny is to repeat it.
For one, I thank Chris to do this work and publish his opinion about it. People like him, with an extensive knowledge about dog breeding do us all a favor by sharing what they know.. Pedigrees are public domain and fair game to be discussed and analyzed. The consequences of inbreeding are well established by science. And the general public, the one who simply want an healthy pet who fits the breed standard benefits to understand what is going on. A 100 years of breeding for show has led to crap dogs loaded with genetic diseases. Take only the GSD. Show GSDs would be a joke if it was not so sad to see them so deformed by silly fads. Nobody serious in dog sports or protection would buy one. They all get them from working lines. The border collie deserves better. The average dog owner is literally fed up to deal with breeders rejects and general basket cases coming out of the show world. Then the breeders have the audacity to complain about designer breeds. As long as breeders sell their cull dogs to finance their hobby, they are answerable to the consumers for their defective products. Suck it up! Who give a crap about a silly little girl dream of ribbons? If she is smart, she will take her dog in a field or an agility class and admire the incredible beauty of her BC in motion and hope she will have many years with her dog doing just that. Then she will have an inkling of the true measure and the worth of her dog and maybe end up being a breed steward instead of being a ribbon chaser. And fyi, I don’t need to see what is produced as show dog in the UK. For my girl, I just had to take a drive somewhere in North America to a guy who is a known trainer and breeder of BC and asked him to pick me one which was showing potential for sheep herding. The guy sells to many sheep farmers in the area. And lo and behold, it worked just fine.
Chris wish my origin Landrace breed of Scotish and English foundation had anyone that was writing beyond a “Third World Education” for such knowledge of next breeding.to protect my breed. It would be a God send to have this advantage trying to clean up the bottleneck of genetic diversity with now close to seven genetic possible carrier diseases that responsible breeders should be testing.
I wonder what is truly going on with this comments.
Firstly I win this years crufts best of breed, she is a result if over 20 years if breeding this breed. Firstly you do not know me, my dog or my kennel and secondly you do not have mine nor the photographers permission to use this photograph. All my dogs are health tested and have no known abnormalities. They are through and through Border collies, with correct construction, movement, health, temperament etc I could go on……. Please remove any information you seem to have required without permission that regards my dog immediately
Congratulations on your win. Notice I left no commentary about the conformation of your dog or your skill as a handler. This post is specifically limited to the breeding pattern that created the Coefficient of Inbreeding on your dog and the other winning dogs mentioned.
I don’t NEED to know you to perform this analysis on your dog. It’s a matter of FACT. Your dog has a pedigree and it was analysed on a public Border Collie database and the Inbreeding was calculated there, and I reported on this. This number is a fact that will not change based upon your character, your kennel, or the other qualities of your dog, which of course I rendered no opinion of.
Your dog has a pedigree, this is a measure of that pedigree. It’s not NEW or EXCLUSIVE information. It’s not even an opinion. It’s a calculated fact.
If I have mis-stated ANY FACTS in relation to your dog, I will correct them. But as it stands, the information I’ve presented is based on public records and assumed on good faith to be accurate.
I in no way need your permission or blessing to post this information. There is no expectation of privacy, this information is already public and available to any who research. You are also exhibiting your dog on the MOST PUBLIC STAGE available to your sport of conformation. You are making yourself and your dog a public figure and I am offering my commentary on what you are asking for attention for. The breeding of your dog.
I make no assumptions over the health testing, abnormalities, construction, movement, temperament of your dog. I made statements that are facts about your dog made from public information.
As for the photograph, I do not need your permission. You are not the photographer and have NO copyright over the photograph in any way. Nor do I need the permission of the photographer, I am using the photograph which has been previously published and used in advertisement by the KC on their website under the FAIR USE doctrine which does not require any permission from the copyright holder of the photograph for its use on this blog.
You can read more about the Fair Use doctrine here:
http://www.border-wars.com/2011/08/10000-pounds-sterling.html
So again, if you have any correction to the FACTUAL statements I have made about your dog, specifically its name, age, gender, location of breeding and birth, Australian and New Zealand breeding on both sides, COI of 13% as stated by the Anadune BC database using their pedigree information, etc. then I will promptly correct the record. Otherwise, my opinion on inbreeding is my free speech and is not subject to approval or censorship by you.
Donna Wiltshire, by being so nervous here about showing your dog’s breeding, are you not publicly admitting that even you think that there’s something wrong or shameful with the degree of inbreeding in its pedigree?
Shame on you for trying to hide facts. This is not North Korea, you know, and pedigrees are a matter of public knowledge, not your personal property. If there’s nothing to be ashamed of, then act accordingly and in a dignified manner, instead of posing as a lawyer and trying to censor facts that anyone can check. But clearly even you realize that the level of inbreeding is distasteful – why act so jumpy otherwise?
Well Said ,Kate
Hello, Note to author as the legal representative for owners of Caleykiz rhythm in black, i must inform you, that you do not have permission to use the photograph of the dog taken at Crufts this year, although permission was given to the Kennel Club to be able to use this photograph for their own use, strict instructions were given that this photo is not to used any where else, and the dog owners hold the copyright to this picture.
Because you have used this picture on your website you are in breech of copyright laws and in doing so open yourself up to prosecution, please remove this picture from your website immediately.
I must also point out to you that if you in any way publish any comments to the detriment of the dog or its owners, legal action will be take against yourself.
Mark
Hello “Mark.”
(1) I do not believe that you are in any way the “legal representative” for the owners of the dog in question. If you are, it’s very convenient for them that you live at the same address and have the exact same IP address.
(2) Anyone who is actually an attorney would know that leaving a comment on a blog is not an actionable notice for cease and desist.
(3) Anyone who is actually an attorney would know that I do not require anyone’s permission to use public information and the photo under the Fair Use doctrine of the US Code.
(4) Anyone who is actually an attorney would know that your “client” does not have any copyright over the photograph of their dog as they are not the photographer.
(5) Anyone who is actually an attorney knows how to spell BREACH. A “breech” is a part of a gun or cannon, or perhaps a person’s buttocks.
(6) I will not remove the photo from my website immediately.
(7) And I will not take “legal action against myself.” But thanks for demanding that I sue myself, that’s clever.
The British KC very recently opened up the bc studbook. There are lots of working collie type unregistered dogs (wsds) in Britain, and farmers and dog sport enthusiasts often keep their own pedigrees. The KC has recently opened up registration for collies with a recorded (but not registered with any society) pedigree. I think they are assessed by two breed champ judges as being of recognisable collie type- they don’t have to be show/Australian type. I don’t think most farmers care- if bothered they would try to register with the isds on merit rather than the kc, so it’s more for agility people than anyone, as to compete at the fci world agility champs you have to have a pedigree dog.
This means anyone with high aspirations for themselves, or for any pups they might breed, will want bcs- to breed a litter of wsds automatically loses you potential good homes. Lines of wsds bred for agility used to be reasonably common, but pet passports have connected us to Europe, and thus opened up the fci worlds. Now almost all the working collies you see at Crufts are registered bcs. The number of rescue dogs competing at the top has also dropped for this reason.
Of course, I doubt the newly registered wsds will impact the showing lines, but at least the working line bc will occasionally receive fresh blood, although popular sires and linebreeding are also problems suffered in sports lines as well. A popular agility dog who won crufts sired many pups who were then over used themselves, and now it turns out he carries epilepsy!
I also think the ISDS registers more beardie types and wsds than you think- there was an isds litter advertised on Agilitynet a few months ago with a reg on merit beardie mother.
Jessica,
Thanks for the information. Do you happen to have a source on the KC opening the BC studbook and why they chose to do so?
I was curious when watching the Agility why some BCs were listed as “Border Collies” and others were “Working Farm Dogs” but seemed to have show-like names. I believe this answers my question, they are newly registered dogs.
I agree that the newly registered dogs probably won’t change show breeding patterns, I mean we see so many show breeders in the USA and UK using Australian and NZ stock instead of developing their own show lines from native stock. If they aren’t using locally bred stock much, there doesn’t seem to be a desire to do so. But it will allow people who WANT to bring in new blood to do so. That’s fantastic.
I don’t care to make anyone breed in a way they don’t want. But to give other more enlightened breeders the FREEDOM to do so WITHIN THE SYSTEM is a great plus.
Sorry I’ve confused you. The wsds you saw at crufts are registered on the kc activity register as working sheep dogs- not on the breed register. This is a term used to describe any collie type without pedigree papers- be it bred from agility lines for the last five generations, or a rescue of unknown origin. These dogs are not eligible to compete at fci events and are not a breed, just a type. I can’t find a source- I’ll be seeing someone who looked into getting her wsd registered tomorrow so I’ll ask her then how she found the information, as the kennel club website isn’t being very forthcoming, and the original agility net news I saw has long since vanished- it’s like the kc doesn’t want any one to know! For an example of a newly registered wsd, look up lookylooky fabuloso on anadune. Her sire is from the waggerland wsd line (different from the bc line). She has three stars next to her name, her pups have two, their pups would have one, and the next generation would be fully registered collies. Jessica
That would be the ‘b’ registry being reopened, Christopher. Jemima covered it on her blog. It takes evaluation by two breed judges and then, I believe, four generations before the progeny get full registration.
The UK also has the ‘activity’ register, where any kind of dog, including the impure, can be registered to compete in performance events. It is something like limited AKC registration except there are no restrictions on breeding from the dog, for purebreds there’s an endorsement that can be lifted in order to register the offspring.
Jess Ruffner recently posted..Afghan Hounds in ‘The Egyptian,’ 1954
You don’t actually have to prove that a dog you want to register through PAL (purebred of unknown ancestry) or Canine Partners (mixed breed) is altered. The old ILP forms required proof of altering–my vet took it so seriously that because she didn’t do the altering herself (the dog I was ILPing was 7 years old and I had gotten him from rescue) she wrote a note stating that he COULD be a bilateral cryptorchid but was likely neutered (no doubt AKC said “whatever” and cashed my check, since he did look like a Sheltie, though I do know dogs that were rejected). The new forms say the dog must be altered, but don’t require that you provide any proof of that. I assume that if AKC found out the dog was NOT altered somehow, there would be some kind of disciplinary action, probably limited to revoking registration, but I don’t know how they would figure it out unless you tried to get a refund of entry fees for a bitch in season or something.
In the uk all agility dogs competing at kc shows have to be registered with the KC whatever breed or cross breed they happen to be. Like pedigrees, they have to be unique which of course mean they often end up a bit bizarre looking, they are often puns on the dogs pet name. There is also a tradition of trying to get names through which sound rude when read out over the tannoy 🙂
Can’t remember the exact rules on length and format, but I as I understand it could register my two as something like ‘Rossendale Twixt the Devil and the deep blue sea’ and ‘Rossendale Lucy in the sky with diamonds’ even though Twix is a BC mix and Lucy is an unregistered springer spaniel.
Hope that helps.
Chris I continue to wonder with such vast information and scientific findings: Why such threats and denial of the truth? I see this term “Working Farm Dogs” something that happen 100 or so years ago. The Rough Collie became the term used for show working farm dogs. Even in the United States the Rough Collie was taking out of the Working Dog Class and Herding Class was adopted.
The Border Collie became the term used for Working Farm Dogs in herding trials?
I had the honor to be invited to several meetings of Scottish Breeders of Border Collies some fifteen or more years ago. This was prior to the Border Collie being accepted as an AKC breed. The deepest heart felt concerns was not only a revival of vast autoimmune problems due to inbreeding but the lost of the unique herding style of the Border Collie.
Thanks for educating Chris. As always, an eye opening read that benefits the public.
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Chris I do not understand why the owner would object to their Border Collie photo being used. It is only 13 percent?
Chris
just because its the same IP address does not mean I am not the owners Solicitor/Lawyer.
I have search your website and have found no direct contact address for you, so that is the reason for writing on your page, so if you would please forward my your contact details, so I can contact you direct regarding any legal action to be taken.
Yours Sincerely
Mark
feet up on the stool and got me some popcorn. This is gonna be good!
Took me two seconds to find this:
http://www.astraean.com/contact/
Jess Ruffner recently posted..Afghan Hounds in ‘The Egyptian,’ 1954
About the same time it took me. Maybe UK internet access is still mostly dial-up?
The third link on the top left of this page is also:
http://www.border-wars.com/contact
But then again, we’re dealing with a live-in “attorney” who thinks I’m in “breech” … that’s the classiest way anyone has ever called me an ass. Hah!
Interesting, in a troubling sort of way.
I’d certainly love to see the Border Collie world address this — doesn’t matter how good the dogs are; what are their genes going to be doing if this keeps up?
Jennifer,
Saccheri (1998): “To our knowledge, this is the first demonstration of an effect of inbreeding on the extinction of natural populations. Our results are particularly relevant to the increasing number of species with small local populations due to habitat loss and fragmentation.” The paper has been published in Nature and is widely quoted since then. it is not under a paywall if you are interested: http://www.life.illinois.edu/ib/451/Saccheri%20%281998%29.pdf
I guess only considerable advances in vet care will save many dog breeds from the same fate.
Fascinating article. Thanks for posting. A few notable features of the study. (1) Date. One study done on a species of butterfly in 1998 is interesting and relevant, but it would be good to see replication, especially since it is now much cheaper to test for homozygosity. I can’t imagine a modern study looking at only seven loci. It would be good to know more about the loci used — are the associated enzymes particularly vital? I’m not sure you can generalize from butterflies to dogs. Note that plants such as Rubus sp. have gone apomictic (given up sex) and local populations will generally have COIs approaching 100%. Wild blackberries show no sign of going extinct! (2) In this case homozygosity seems to have come from natural inbreeding in geographically isolated populations, which results in an interesting model with extinction of local populations being a secondary feature of natural selection. It is possible that most homozygous populations, like most mutants, and disadvantaged, but in a few cases the homozygous is advantaged over the heterozygous. This isn’t the place to build a theory . . . but . .. fascinating article leading to many interesting tangents.
oops . . .4 minutes is up . . . retract the statement that apomicts have COI approaching 100%. They have COI = undefined. Self-fertilization — which does result in COI approaching 100% — has been shown to have long term negative consequences in some plants.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610095148.htm
Well, the species which manage asexual reproduction have a few aces up their sleeves. Having kept Indian Stick Insects (Carausius morosus), I can vouch that albeit being all females, they breed like the Dickens. Maybe asexual reproduction is what happens when an individual wakes up one day and think: I am perfect, now I just need more of myself. No more dirty sex!
But then you give up on adaptation. Fungi have kept the best of both world. IMO, they are the upcoming kingdom and will replace mammals as we replaced dinosaurs. For now they are just biding their time : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXeygGxu8-8 … But I digress.
This is the thing which I find to be one of the big problems with domesticated animals — the loss of adaptive ability. However, with some (like pedigree dogs) we are confronted with something else: maladaption (or as you stated: without very good vet care they would not survive at all).
Or: when your breed of dog probably could not survive and reproduce well living in an Oklahoma trailer park, then maybe, just maybe, it’s time to give a thought about what path you’re following!
(no offense to trailer park denizens; some of the best people I know happen to live in the same — but just illustrating that if your dog has been so “special bred” so as to require it’s own bank account just for vet expenses to stay viable — including breeding and birth — then maybe it’s time for a little wake up call)
Border Collies don’t seem to be anywhere near this — for now. Let’s not let it get that bad!
Plants are interesting in a sort of … other life forms do it THIS way kind of comparison. But I’m not sure why you’re thinking they’re particularly relevant here. Frankly they’re not (and not to say there’s some damning pro-inbreeding evidence in plants that I’m dismissing, there isn’t).
The reason they’re not particularly relevant is that plants have radically different strategies concerning their prorogation that are simply not available to mammals like humans and dogs.
They can clone easily and thus winning combinations of genes can hundreds, thousands of generations mostly unchanged. They produce thousands of seeds which are then subjected to harsh culling, so any advantageous mutations can thrive quickly and negative ones can be weeded (teee heee) out quickly.
While plants do have the haploid-diploid cycle, some also have chromosome numbers that are many times what mammals have, often they are whole duplications of an entire set of ancestor chromosomes, so the entire concept of recessive and dominant takes on a vary different character when there are so many extra loci for what is basically the same gene. Imagine if you had one new recessive mutation, but instead of there being only 1 other allele to interact with, there were 4 or 10 or dozens.
Thanks. Very interesting — will give it a thorough read tonight!
I guess the thing I would most like to see, is rather than defensiveness when the topic of COI gets brought up in pedigreed dogs (or anything else for that matter) would be for people to sit back and say (at least to themselves, but publicly would be better): “gee, thanks for bringing this up; it is something I definitely will be taking into consideration in regards to my breeding program from here on out as I certainly don’t want to see this or heavens forfend, see it going up”.
We can’t make a dog already born have a different COI, but we can work to make sure their pups and grandpups (and further on) do not replicate the same pattern — but it won’t happen if the first reaction is to become defensive.
…and there’s a difference between constructive criticism (which can sound pretty harsh sometimes, but aims to better something) and using critical language to tear down. I think perhaps many confuse the author’s intent, and perhaps thus react badly to it.
oops…darn, that is embarrassing, slime molds have been reclassified and are no longer considered fungi…
Btw, Christopher is being generous. it would be mathematically correct to report most, if not all, COI values as being >XXX%. The assumption that ancestry past generation N is totally unrelated is inherent in computation of COI(N). This assumption may be very optimistic, eg., in a breed where there was a bottleneck during and just after WW2 and the dogs making it through the bottleneck were somewhat related.
Excellent work, Christopher. To all the deluded lunatics gabbling on about how terrible Chris is for pointing out deleterious facts about the show BC’s genetics, all I can say is
1) I have seen what this sort of thinking has done to the Flat-Coated Retriever, a breed doomed to extinction.
2) The average commercial cattle rancher has a better grasp of animal genetics than any of you, and for good reason: unlike dog breeders, cattle ranchers actually have a real stake (or is that “steak”?) in raising healthy animals.
I’ve been surprised to see from my own research that many kennel owners and breeders are doing an injustice to this excellent breed of dog. Instead of focussing on beauty they need to concentrate on good breeding practice and also bringing the Hip Score down at least to the average.
It appears one BC breeder and top judge campaigned a very successful dog for years with a hip score of 21, nearly twice the average. This dog sired hundreds of pups and I believe his frozen semen is still offered for sale. Another bitch in this kennel is advertised saying her Hip Score results are awaited. In fact the results came through a long time ago but are too bad to put on the kennel’s site.
Another top breeder and Judge advertises a dog at a lower hip score than the actual score and again in this kennel’s line there’s a dog with high hip scoring siring hundreds of pups and the line has thrown hip scores as high as 68 and 83.`
If you’re a breeder or breeder AND judge then breeding from this type of gene pool is utterly irresponsible.
Other breeders advertise dogs as being health tested which gives a would-be buyer false confidence because often these health tests are not FULL health tests.
My opinion is that all these breeders are inflicting a Judas Kiss to this wonderful breed.
In any kind of competition, common sense seems to dissapear.
I totally agree with much of what you believe Christopher. We have done terrible things to dogs! I cane in for flak by putting on a forum, the X ray of the Peke that won Westminster 1960. However i am to so sure about this thread on COI.
I have bred closely related dogs and then out crossed on about the 3rd to 4 th Generation. If you go back, as sine breeds can, 100 years, they have found that all dogs go back to the same few dogs. The further back you go in pedigreed the higher the COI. All Thoroughbreds stem on the male side from just 4 Arabian horses. I have based my breeding on what a geneticist advised. If you inbreed on healthy lines, you will double up on good genes then outcross to the same type providing you can trust the other breeder to be honest! It has worked for us. We have Italian Greyhounds that are run like you would run your Borders! Furthermore they have much more stamina than the average dog, I have taken some of mine up and down Snowdon and the Alps! I have seen novices believing that they are doing the right thing by keeping the COI as low as possible. Doesn’t work because they don’t take anything else into consideration. I own the record breaking stud. He has a COI of 1 %. He is a very dominant sire and is a good example of type to type. He has taken part in the most up to date Health tests that are available in the USA now. At 11 years old he is fit as a flea and still can beat much younger dogs in the ring. However I have on,y let him be used on bitches that I would be happy to breed from.
Jo seems many of us in pure breed dog breeders have awoke and smelled the coffee. Inbreeding regardless of pure breed is betrayal of a responsible breeder.
Quoting Ayn Rand, while condemning selfishness is sort of like quoting Elizabeth Taylor on the secrets of a happy marriage.
I have scanned this post and have not noticed any reference to the UK kennel clubs work on modifying breeding behaviour . Using the full dog name as registered with KC it is possible to ascertain which health checks the animal has passed and its COI, Also using Mate select you can enter sire and dam to calculate the COI of the progeny from that theoretical mating. The average COI for the breed concerned is also displayed. Their website is not the easiest to find your way around
I’ve played around with Mate Select a bit and haven’t found it that helpful. It doesn’t SHOW you the pedigree and how full it is and how many generations are being used in enough detail. It might be ok at showing you very recent inbreeding, but it’s not the tool yet that is really needed.
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/mate-select-good-but-no-cigar-just-yet.htm
recently they have removed imported dogs without a 10 generation pedigree ful pedigree from the breed average calculations .As the future generations are computerised things should become more accurate
A very interesting site and also useful for a biology friend of mine who is teaching about in-breeding and genetics at the moment.
Now that any KC registered dog can be searched for on their site and its COI shown I’m noticing the percentages differ to the ones published here. Is it something to do with the generations taken into account? I wouldn’t for a moment be suggesting the KC and covering up just how inbred/ ‘line’ bred some of their champions are. Thanks in advance.
Niall (isds registered Border Collie owner)